captain ted

Then stop pissing about with your cars and you will have no bother!

Ted.

banny sti

iTrader: (68)

You mean unmodded.

Gary C

Come on people lets get this together.

The question is,
Is a JDM car run on 95 likely to fail early (ie 3-20K miles of use of 95) due to detonation if driven reasonably within its expected usage.

Expected usage
Driven using full throttle and revs but not all the time and not continuously.
Not thrashed in the way a track car is.
Fully serviced.

Personally, I would like to use fuel as specified by the manufacture. Ran my JDM EVO on 98 only but am happy to run my UK STi on 95.

AC-scoobie

Who said anything about pissing? An imported STI is meant to be run on 100ron. That is completely standard, not messed about with in any way, not pissed about with any way, just as it came off the production line.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Put it this way, it's a gamble: at the very least the car will not be performing to its potential, at the very worst, the ECU will not be able to adapt adequately to the lower grade fuel and the engine will start to det and you're one traffic light grand prix/overtake away from an engine rebuild!

If it doesn't let go, feel free to come on here and poke fun of me for being an SN ****, I'll only cry for an hour or so If it does, you'll cry a lot longer, so will your bank manager!!

Ns04

pslewis

Electricity travels the same exact speed, through a wire, that light travels through a vacuum.

I guess you don't know what happens in an ECU but it is mainly due to electricity ...... to all intents and purposes - operating at the speed of light!!

Are you enlightened? I do apologise as this knowledge comes naturally to me.

Pete

Ben v7

I wouldn't take advice from Pete. His car is completely standard and he objects religiously to almost any form of modification. You have shelled out the money on the car and shell out to maintain it to a high standard so why cut corners when it comes to the fuel?

If the car has been specifically set up to run on a particular octane you would be best running on that octane - peace of mind. Sure it might be fine and you won't have any problems sticking in a lower grade fuel - but bear in mind that Pete won't be the one picking up the bill for any engine rebuilds.

At the end of the day you do get a lot of advice on here - some of it wrong or perhaps a bit over the top - but that's purely because the vast majority don't want to see you running into problems that might have been avoided!

aaronhowe

Well put Ben

pslewis

Yeah, ok, **** yourself and PANIC and become a scared **** of ScoobyNet .. there are a few hereabouts!!

If its an Import and its set-up for the Japanese market then all you need do is use Tesco 99RON and you will be ok!

It is well documented that fuel loses RON whilst sat in the tanks at the service station so use a BUSY station ..... and enjoy the car!

Troubles happen when you either start fooookin about with it like a right chav or drive it like a ***** ...... FACT!

Pete

THOMO

or the engine was not good enough to start with.like you said earlier in the thread, scoobs must be the only cars in the world where people recommend knocklinks, octane booster to drive. to say if you drive them hard is why the engines go i disagree .we all know guys with other makes cars i.e honda nissans mitsys etc and have thrashed them to death without the engines going.face the facts the classic factory engine is ****e. have a chat with your local scooby engine builder theres plenty!! the newage cars seem much more reliable thankgod.i was told by 2 engine builders on here the classic engines are what keeps them in business!! including myself i know 9 scooby
owners that have there engine go.a engine rebuild with steel internals and a good remap and your laughing.
YOU CANT BEAT THE CLASSIC LOOKS
YOU CANT BEAT THE NEWAGE RELIABILTY

ZEN Performance

Having spoken to a number of customers, and potential customers, I can't let this one slide. FOr every 10 people that ready SN and recognise the windups and banter, there will be one that believes everything they read.

While I am writing this, I would like to point out that some of us in the Impreza "tuning scene" (call it what you will) have time to go through SN, some of us are actually doing the things you read about. Perhaps I should add a "scoobynet suppliment" to all my invoices to cover my time to reply to threads like this? But back to the topic in hand...

If you run your classic impreza on 95 RON you will get substantially less performance, I don't think anyone is going to argue with that. However, if you run a 95 onwards, classic import, 96 or 97-98 UK PPP on 95RON petrol, you are very likely to cause very real engine damage in the long and sometimes short term. If you try and run some of the v3 through v6 STIs on 95 RON you should start saving for the engine build now.

I suspect you will "probably" get away with almost anything on a newage car, but some cars (or versions of ECU code to be more precise and there are nearly 100 for 01-04 cars) are paticularly stupid when it comes to dealling with det. On the early cars, they can be deaf as a post when it comes to picking up det when it really matters. While you may think that det on full boost is all you need to worry about, I can assure that is the least of your worries. When it comes to 95 unleaded, the biggest difference is at part throttle, the times when you might think the engine is at no load it can be merrily detontating and pinking away without you realising. And because the load is relatively low, the ECU may have not correction in hand to apply. There are windows for RPM and engine load (airflow) in which ignition correct is applied in a overall way and also a more localised "on the fly" way. Outside of this depending on the ECU version, it may do absolutely nothing to counteract detonation. On some versions, det occuring within these windows may also be unheard for some reason.

It has been the trend in the past for UK cars to have less active correction mapped into the ECUs, with more base ignition timing, and less "optional" timing that is only applied in the absence of det. Also back in 97-98, the UK cars were mapped on 98RON superunleaded, which was/is somewhat better in terms of RON and paticularly MON than the current 97 SUL. With the advent of Optimax and now Tesco 99, the options are much better.

To give you an idea of the numbers we are talking in relation to ignition timing. A classic, say UK car may run 44 degrees of advance at light cruise and say 3500rpm, and it will happily run like this on 95 or 100 RON fuel. As the manifold pressure rises to say 0.2 bar (very low boost), you may expect 35 degrees at 3500, but only 30 degrees at 2000rpm. Now put 95 RON fuel in, and get the car starting to spool nice and low down, just darting around town, and your car will require perhaps as little 22 degrees to avoid detonation. Trying to run at 30 degrees will result in quite noticeable detonation, not the sort of "kill a piston in an instant" det that you might get at high boost, but the sort that will slowly erode and weaken the piston over it's life. Add a little leannes from a dodgy maf (or whatever) and that weak piston can fail catastrophically.

The best advice I can give, is if you want to run your car on 95 RON fuel, at least get it checked for det and fuelling on the fuel you want to run. If it runs fine (and it might) then cheap running at less power is yours.

As David at API says, you can run what ever fuel you want, I rebuild engines aswell as remap cars.

Paul

pslewis

Nice speech .....

Now, how many Impreza Turbo owners are out there who:-

a) Have never heard of ScoobyNet

b) Don't want to know about it

c) Are driving their cars around for decades without issues

I'll answer that for you ...... LOADS!!!

Probably 70% of Imprezas sold never even come close to ScoobyNet and drive around blissfully unaware that their engines are made of chocolate with ice cream pistons and jelly big end bearings!

Now, lets take a look at why a proportion of ScoobyNet owners have engines rebuilt? Let me add that it STILL isn't a large proportion!

It's like this:-

1. The average ScoobyNetter is under 30, yes?

2. The 20 somethings love to want to go faster

3. The 20 somethings are risk takers

4. This group WILL modify their cars and WILL drive them over their mechanical limits

5. This group will also be the ones who are computer literate and will want to shout about their blown engines on here

So, a false sense of failure ensues ...... 6 years ago, when I bought my Impreza Turbo I was about 2 months into reading ScoobyNet - it nearly put me off!!!!

I started to think that I was about to buy something akin to a TVR, a Rover or an Alfa Romeo with all the costs and unreliability they bring!!

BUT, the JD Power Surveys - I thought - couldn't be wrong??? They were saying that the Impreza was honed from a solid piece of granite .. troubles only happened if it was messed with .... and, being an Engineer, I understood how the two seemingly differring opinions could co-exsist.

So I bought one.

Result?

The most reliable car I have ever owned, by quite a margin and The fastest car I have ever owned, by quite a margin.

My brakes have lasted from new to now, 66,000miles later. The Michelin tyres last for 30,000miles a piece. Insurance costs me £335 a year. Oil and Filter costs £20 every 6 months and is a simple DIY procedure. Annual Servicing costs are well under control.

This paints a picture of the majority of Imprezas on the worlds roads today - solid and reliable if treated with respect and sympathy.

How do I know this for absolutely CERTAIN?

Simply because NOWHERE else is the Impreza Engines abilities to cover massive mileages ever questioned. Do you read articles on chocolate Impreza engines in Car Magazines? No you do NOT! Do you watch as Top Gear slags the crappy Impreza off? No you do NOT! Do you have Subaru Dealers thumping their heads against the desk as they cannot sell one of the most unreliable cars of all time? NO you do NOT!

It boils down to an absolutely simple conclusion, summed up in few words:-

"Subaru Impreza Engines do sometimes go wrong, this is due (mainly) to these engines being tuned and driven well outside of their design envelope. The owners/drivers of these vehicles are most likely to frequent a BBS and they will like to spread the word of their mis-fortune (brought upon themselves by their own stupidity but no-one likes to admit being stupid) and the poor old abused car gets the blame. They therefore have the effect of skewing the truth for anyone reading ScoobyNet"

Engine re-builders love to hype the myths, to fight to be the Top Engine Rebuilder ....... but they know, in their heart of hearts that they actually see very few of the Subaru engines ever built.

Most go on and on and on and on and on without missing a beat.

Subaru know how to build a great engine, powered by great engineering principles and controlled by the finest Electronics the world has to offer - so say otherwise is flying into the face of the facts around us.

Pete

john banks

The first post in this thread refers to imports Pete, not unmodified UK cars that are driven cautiously on the road.

Would you care to comment on the safety facilities incorporated into the GC8 ECUs "the finest electronics the world has to offer" in comparison with a typical European ECU of similar vintage and its implications in terms of abnormal operating parameters?

If you can offer sensible comment on this I am prepared to engage in debate with you, otherwise I'm wasting my time.

pslewis

The other posts referred to engines that go bang in the night - I was addressing those issues.

If you care to supply me with the details of the GC8 Safety ECU Facilities then I will take a look and offer you my engineering advice willingly.

Pete

Clazza

Pete i'm intrigued as to your age and the type of car which you drive? Any chance of a pic?

pslewis

Strange request?

I drive a Subaru Impreza Turbo Wagon in Blue with Silver Wheels, owned since brand new in 2000

I have a picture and have posted it up before, but can't be arsed tonight as I am off to bed soon.

And most on ScoobyNet has seen the photo of me ... someone will come along with it sooner or later.

Pete

john banks

Let's take your MY00 ECU then.

Does it know the intake air temperature?
Does it know the exhaust gas temperature?
Does it compensate well for a slightly under-reading MAF sensor?
Does it always detect a failed knock sensor?
Does it listen for knock at high RPM?

A typical Bosch Motronic ECU as installed in many European models which make a lower specific output than even a MY00 UK Impreza Turbo will do all of this and the Subaru ECU will not.

For the first two, Subaru didn't put the sensors there on your car. MAF sensors fail on many cars produced in the last 10 years. Any mechanic will tell you that. But if it fails on a VAG motor the car will just run badly, but no damage will result to the engine. I'm sure the Subaru ECU with better code in it could have more safety measures in there to protect its engine. The Bosch ECUs tend to have far more means of testing for abnormal operation, with far more checks and balances, and the Subaru ECU is primitively engineered in comparison. I've personally seen standard cars suffer from engine failures in relation to the above safety features that are lacking.

Even my present car whose ECU generation was released in 1999 has individual cylinder knock control that operates to the red line, drive by wire throttle with many self protection mechanisms, temperature and protection mechanisms galore, and it doesn't even have a turbo!

Engines fail, but it seems a damn shame that you can get a few Achilles heel situations on GC8 ECUs that it just doesn't see. Good job it is not a nuclear power station

Perhaps with the above information you'd be able to work out maybe five single faults each that would result in your engine blowing up and not the one in a VAG motor?

AudiLover

Why do you own a impreza if your only doing bleeding shopping trips with it.???

pslewis

So, basically you are saying that SUBARU haven't got a clue how to build a performance car .... but you seem to have all the answers??

If its all the same with you - I will put my faith in Subaru, thanks all the same

What do you do for a living John? By the way, I do NOT work in the Nuclear Power Industry.

Pete

pslewis

Why NOT?

You are falling into the Chav trap see? You 'ave an Impreza Mate to race around Maccys Car Park like a foooookin' mental patient ......... which, of course, to kiddies like you is all you can think about because you haven't grown up yet

Pete

john banks

Perhaps with the above information you'd be able to work out maybe five single faults each that would result in your engine blowing up and not the one in a VAG motor?

Most of the weaknesses that exist in your ECU have been corrected in later models. It doesn't mean your car will blow up, but if there is an abnormal situation it is much more likely to than an ECU that actually really tries hard to protect your engine.

Go ahead, put your faith blindly in Subaru. Ignore the engineering deficiencies even when pointed out to you and pretend they are not there. You'll probably be lucky, but it doesn't mean there are not weaknesses there that suddenly become very important in a modified and/or imported car and cost the misinformed (by you) thousands of pounds.

I am a Doctor by training if it matters. What I can tell you is that the sorts of contingencies in your ECU would be no good in a life support machine, but the ones in better ECUs would. It is quite obvious when you look at the mechanisms, which your engineering experience should make obvious to you.

I've also mapped about a hundred Subaru ECUs almost identical to the one in your car.

pslewis

Tell you what?

Let us ENGINEERS worry about the Engineering, you go back to Mrs Jones and her Gout ............................

I'm sure that Car Designers and Engineers all over the world are watching your every move

I bet you have a pair of geeky Det Cans too???

Pete

anthscooby01

So my 3 y/o wind up PC with 700mhz processor operates at the speed of light cos it runs off electric!!?? COME ON PETE!!! YOUR BRAINS FRIED!!!

john banks

Very predictable and patronising.

I will point out that I was the first mapper that was trained and started mapping with Ecutek tools other than Ecutek themselves and that subsequently this same technology was adopted by Prodrive and Subaru to produce warrantied packages. Subsequently I had the first UK car over 400 BHP, developed my own electronic boost controller and designed a complete solution to remove the MAF sensor from the car and run it properly.

Your attempts to pigeon hole me into my primary profession ignore the fact that I had a successful and profitable Subaru tuning business that I wound up because I had a more profitable medical practice.

You also ignore the fact that one of the leading Evo tuners is a Dentist by training etc etc.

I do not own a pair of det cans, but have access to some if I need them.

Now, are you going to be a miserable old man who is interested in titles, or are you going to waste my time as I suggested you would in my first post by avoiding debating the engineering issues?

Trouble is, you know I'll run rings around you about anything to do with a Subaru ECU

middxsti

its all about enjoying your drive
why do we have to constantly **** ourselves thinking where the next optimax station is,for fear of the engine going **** up in smoke,if we don't put it in??its the scaremongers that have distilled this malarchy in our minds.There are plenty of skylines and supra tt's as i have seen, running fine on sul,and running single turbo's,without any octane booster's,they dont go up in smoke!so why can't the impreza be like this?is the ecu unadvanced then?
I have to agree with pete,there are too many people on here who put off potential newcomers,its very scary.

Clazza

Some of your comments have made me wonder what kind of person you are? I'm getting the impression that you are well into your forties?

john banks

middxsti, Pete is on the right lines for an unmodified UK car. Standard classic imports and modified cars need more care by being informed. If you want a shopping car, but a UK car and don't modify it. If you want a lot more performance out of the same engine you can reduce the failure rate substantially by being informed and taking precautions. Quite simple really.

john banks

Whilst I'm bragging Pete, I'll also add that some of my electronics were doing a crucial job in controlling the engine management of a well known world record breaking (and reliable engine wise) Subaru Impreza last year and hopefully this year. If that is not good enough ECU engineering credentials (based on results not titles or qualifications) for you to condescend to discuss this with me then I'll shut up...

Bram

I still wait to see scoobys littering the hard shoulders or on the sides of roads with their bonnets up. Every car in my own experience needing new engines were down to owner use. These covered the more popular tuned types with Scoobs being one of them but mostly Classics which was available to my mates at the time. None of them was due to petrol, it was there own fault totally.

The potential issues of tuning a car beyond its normal parameters are well documented. Would I suggest refraining from such behaviour, nope its your call and its your money. But when tuned and remaining at such condition of peekness will cost on other parts not tuned to maintain the new output. Its an ever chasing circle, you will become great buds with your chosen garage or modder. You see testimony on this site, who should you go too, who is a great lad. Well they would and are, as your there golden goose.

Thats all it is, its some persons dream some wish to participate some of us now just want to have a reliable car, have bit oomph when you require it, personalise if you wish and maintain it yourself if possible. I fully expect my car to do what it says in the manual, its what the manufacturers designed and built after product testing as per statutory rights, etc, etc. I expect to attain modest returns in longevity of parts fitted as standard.

I read with great interest Subaru PPP cars did not have 305 brake. But as company of standing they sold that service stating the car did reach 305 brake, on the net and through dealer sales talk. But on sites like this we read they fail up and down the country on rolling roads and never get over 265-290 brake. It got to such an extent Subaru felt duty bound and made a statement concerning the issue and why cars prepared with PPP were not attaining the set figures on the rolling roads. So who do you believe, I must believe Subaru as they cannot miss sell services or product, its against consumer protection, we could sue them for not supplying what they agreed, its misselling. Not to mention bad publicity.

Optimax comes from one refinery where I live its the same petrol supplied all over the country. But I still read some people feel that one garage optimax is better than another just down the road. Unless the storage tank is contaminated a cannot see the logic here. And why would you need to boost optimax with additives, I thought that was the reason to purchase optimax in the first place it had already had additives.

AudiLover

Why not get a Mercedes or something else thats comfortable and doesnt eat so much fuel. I thought you said you were rich so why not get an AMG. How does a supposedly 70yr old man cope with a rough a impreza unless hes not really 70.