scoobynutta555

Higher education debate, don't even go there! we'll have a 20 pager

unclebuck

We might be on the brink....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4827890.stm

...it could be the case that the recession is already beginning without intrest rate rises.

Flatcapdriver

Regarding your last point the main reason why you won't get many people prepared to indulge you in debate is because it's been ingrained in Western society that those nasty high income earners should always pay more tax than the poor low earners.

The basic premise of flat taxation is that because of it's simplicity, taxpayers simply pay up rather than go to the bother of trying to avoid, legitimately, paying taxes. Inevitably, as in the case of Estonia the collective tax take was higher once this system had been introduced.

Let's say the tax rate was to be 20% above £20,000 in the UK, which would entice foreign wealth creators into the UK due to the attractively low rates of income tax, lower earners would probably not pay any tax and the ones in the middle would simply pay up as it was too much hassle to take avoiding action.

As I said at the beginning, there is no way this will take off primarily because lower earners could not bear to see the higher income brackets paying less tax and politically this would be suicide to introduce.

warrenm2

Or maybe the DIY/changing rooms thing was a fad that has now abated

warrenm2

anyway back on topic - I think we are on the right side of the Laffer curve now

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

With the election out of the way it was pretty obvious brown was gonna open up both barrels on us this year anyway

unclebuck

Might have known *they* would be behind it.

Deep Singh

I feel the tax burden is higher than 45ish%. We pay tax again and again on the same assets. For example someone works all their life and pays 40% tax, NI, VAT etc. When he/she dies the proceeds of his house( above ?£280k) is taxed at 40 fecking % again!!

ITS FECKING DAYLIGHT ROBBERY! WHEN WILL IT STOP????????????

scud8

iTrader: (1)

In the UK, the top earners pay less tax as a proportion of income than the lowest earners - and the middle income groups pay more still. Given the high margin rates of income tax (>50% if you include employers' national insurance), then it is worth a high earner paying advisors fees to set up complex tax "planning" schemes to reduce the tax they pay. While these schemes don't have a big take-up, it is not worth the government's time and effort to work them out and legislate against them - but once they trickle down to the middle income groups they typically act very quickly!

This is one effect that a flat tax is intended to counter - provided the rate is low enough, it is not worth top earners doing this (or they won't feel they can emotionally justify it) so they will pay their fair share. This is borne out by the fact that the overall income tax take increased when Thatcher cut the top rate of tax from the punitive rates prevalent in the 70s to 40% in the 80s.

A flat rate tax is also supposed to stimulate economic growth, and reduce the size of the black economy. One of the arguments against a flat rate of tax is that it has so far only been a success in countries with a historically large black economy - so it would not make sense in a developed Western economy.

AudiLover

I hate tax. Minium wage as gone up though. Under labour any one earning under 18k a year are striving with them. The rest of us though arent.

Every lib dem and BNP voter needs to vote Tories as voting for BNP and lib dem is basically just a waste of a vote. Especially BNP.

mpr

Wow.... I love that forum! what a pisser, it instantly makes you feel better about your life I feel like a financial genius after reading some of that

Petem95

I would have totally agreed until recently. 'Nu' Tory are becoming more and more unimpressive by the day. Every policy change they come up with makes them more like Labour - eg 'old' Tory wanted to impose a limit on immigration, 'Nu' Tory now wont impose a limit, and thats just one example

mpr

I have to agree... all the tories had to do was stand their ground, remain right wing, and wait for the electorate to wake up and come back to them. However, they bottled it and started chasing the electorate, and this has led to the half arsed, "we love everyone" mincers we've got now.

Just as night follows day, a labour government get in, eff it all up, then the tories have to get in to make some tough choices to fix it all, then they get complacent and the cycle repeats. This time the cycle is broken, 'cus the tories have forgot their role.

We need a proper right wing opposition that stands up and says "screw the benefit claimants, we're for the working man".

speye91

HERE, HERE

warrenm2

Only people close to this are UKIP. They are now relaunching themselves to be less single issue and to occupy the ground the Tories used to hold

AudiLover

Hopefully the tories are bluffing. They could now just make sure to be as popular as possible beat labour then go back to their old selfs and make the changes that will hopefully for the better.

boomer

In principle, i like the idea of a "flat tax"

Unfortunately there are too many cushy (non) jobs created by the state to invent, advertise, implement, collect, count, report on, give rebates to chavs and generally faff around with the tax revenue.

These jobs will all be at risk (along with their generous pensions, extensive holidays, greater than average sickies, above inflation pay rises etc.), so the Grauniad readers will never let it happen

mb

Brit_in_Japan

If you had checked out the "technical" page on the website I linked, you will see that it does include indirect taxes and National Insurance.

The Tax Freedom Day is calculated for someone on "average income". So you would really need to know what their definition was of "average income" and each person would have to be able to relate their own financial situation to that. It's not so clear cut. Even under New Labour the gap between rich and poor has grown, though there has been a ratcheting up of incomes to the poorest owing to national minimum wage, minimum income guarantee etc.

Some people are better off under New Labour, other's aren't. And such will be the way if someone else comes into power and shakes it all up again.

GrollySTI

Sorry - this suggestion is one of the dumbest things I've heard in a long time

Petem95

Why? Do you own or plan on buying some investment properties maybe?....

GrollySTI

No I don't - but clearly envy is your main motivation here.

Do you have an educated reason why you think this should happen - and have you even given 1 second of consideration to the likely repercussions?

T4molie

I hadn't bothered having a look until you said this.... just had a look and I'd defo have to agree with you on this one Thank god

Petem95

The likely repercussions would probably be a moderate slump in house prices, allowing some FTB's to actually afford to buy.

Grolly, you are maybe missing my point but at the end of the day we have a situation where young people CANNOT afford to buy a house to live in, and instead are forced to rent off people who own multiple houses. Its an increasing divide between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'

From a moral standpoint do you think this situation is fair?

From a social standpoint do you think this a good situation? Young people may would like the stability of their own home to start a family, but cannot buy due to prices.

All Im suggesting is that there should be a deterrent to deter people from owning say 3 or 4 homes, 1 to live in, the others to rent to FTB's who are priced out the market.

davegtt

Thing is, FTB's can afford to buy in many places but in todays world a terrace or a flat isnt good enough, they want a garage and a driveway for their expensive car to sit on/in. Many people moan about house prices around here but theyre not all bad, everybody starts somewhere, my parents started in a flat before being able to move up in the world, too many people want too much too soon these days and thats the problem, there are still affordable housing if you look.

Petem95

Dave, I think in some cases you are correct, and FTB's are expecting too much, but the fact that in the long term 35% of buyers have been FTB's, and now the figure is quoted at 8%. Thats not because theyre being picky - many simply cannot buy.

In that undercover property programme last night an EA got faked pay slips so an unemployed guy could get a mortgage of £185k to buy a 1bed flat. He wouldve had to have had a salary of £53k to get the mortgage on it... most FTB's dont earn 1/2 that.

Mungo

It's not a question of whether it's "fair" or not that some people can afford to buy things and some people cannot. That is the way of the world. I cannot afford a Ferrari 430, that's just the way it is. I do not think it is "my right" to own a Ferrari, as some people think it is their right to own their home. I believe it is people's right to have a home, but whether it's their own, rented privately or provided for them by the state should not matter. This obsession with everybody owning their own home is what is driving house prices up - simple economics has meant that demand has been outstripping supply. What is about to screw things up is that the demand is being driven by people who cannot really afford to buy their own homes, in a lot of cases because they cannot successfully manage their own finances over the 25-30 year stretch it takes to buy a house. In the past, they only needed to worry about finding each month's rent. Now they have access to a whole bunch of capital, and remortgage on a regular basis to access their new-found wealth in order to fund lifestyle expenses. It's just not sustainable, either on the personal level, or the macro-economic level.

OllyK

3 Bed Semi - £72K

Loads of them about, but most of the FTBs that claim they can't afford to buy, are being snobbish about the location. You have to cut your coat to fit, I'd like a Bugatti Veron, I can't afford one, but I'm not complaining that I can't afford any car.

GrollySTI

If you think that the high price of UK housing is due to people buying property for investment then I give up on you.

mpr

You're absolutely right, the problem is that the groups that are better off under new labour are so undeserving IMHO.

Their whole policy seems to be to ensure that dole-dossing scum are as well off as working people. I find that hugely offensive, and very damaging to the country in the short and long term.

Most of em are poor (which nowadays is probably defined as not having sky,2 cars,4 bed house etc etc) because they deserve to be! so **** em is what I say.... I've worked for what I've got, so should they.

Petem95

And I you feel that the boom in investment properties over recent years have had no impact on house prices then you clearly dont know what youre talking about when it comes to the property market.