This is my job!!
18 April 2006, 05:27 PM
#182
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As a matter of interest how many members of the public have been killed by workers who are abseiling off a building either dropping something on them or dropping on them themsleves?
In my opinion a lot of HSE legislation is effectively just jobs for the boys. Its like a fire extinguisher I have to have in a hall I run. Every time there is a new fire officer I have to move it, usually about 6 inches left or right, and as someone pointed out the other day, anyone short can't reach it anyway!
Life is dangerous and paradoxically the safer we make people feel the more risks they take. In my opinion thats why casulty figures on the road don;t show a real decrease, drivers feels so safe, they take more risks and therefore crash!
Ah well the law says its wrong so it must be
In my opinion a lot of HSE legislation is effectively just jobs for the boys. Its like a fire extinguisher I have to have in a hall I run. Every time there is a new fire officer I have to move it, usually about 6 inches left or right, and as someone pointed out the other day, anyone short can't reach it anyway!
Life is dangerous and paradoxically the safer we make people feel the more risks they take. In my opinion thats why casulty figures on the road don;t show a real decrease, drivers feels so safe, they take more risks and therefore crash!
Ah well the law says its wrong so it must be
18 April 2006, 06:01 PM
#183
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Originally Posted by logiclee
The HSE and the regs are designed to keep you safe while at work, you can kill yourself how you like at the weekend but you may still face a civil action if you injure anyone else.
Remember some employers will gladly risk the lives of their employees given half the chance, would we rather be like China that kills tens of thousands of heavy industry workers every year?
Lets just take one suspension point, say the hand railing, looks fine but how do we know the installation guys didn't have a problem with the hole so used a short bolt, did the manufacturing process go OK or are there any fractures in the weld? This is why the regs insist on pull tested susupension points, anything else and you are trusting your life to an unknown.
We also have to take into account that 99% of the general public are stupid. Put a cone on a pavement with a sign and they may look up but most will walk round the cone and carry on rather than cross the road. An exlusion zone must have something physical to stop the public entering, so either tape, barriers or fencing.
In law it wouldn't be the publics fault either, some years ago a guy broke into a substation which was locked and had "Danger high voltage" on the door. He died but the owners of the sub were prosecuted because the grounds were not totally secure, there was a hole in the fencing. Also the family won their civil action because although the sign warned of high voltage it didn't say that would kill him.
Most substation signs now say "Warning High Voltage - Danger of Death"
Cheers
Lee
Remember some employers will gladly risk the lives of their employees given half the chance, would we rather be like China that kills tens of thousands of heavy industry workers every year?
Lets just take one suspension point, say the hand railing, looks fine but how do we know the installation guys didn't have a problem with the hole so used a short bolt, did the manufacturing process go OK or are there any fractures in the weld? This is why the regs insist on pull tested susupension points, anything else and you are trusting your life to an unknown.
We also have to take into account that 99% of the general public are stupid. Put a cone on a pavement with a sign and they may look up but most will walk round the cone and carry on rather than cross the road. An exlusion zone must have something physical to stop the public entering, so either tape, barriers or fencing.
In law it wouldn't be the publics fault either, some years ago a guy broke into a substation which was locked and had "Danger high voltage" on the door. He died but the owners of the sub were prosecuted because the grounds were not totally secure, there was a hole in the fencing. Also the family won their civil action because although the sign warned of high voltage it didn't say that would kill him.
Most substation signs now say "Warning High Voltage - Danger of Death"
Cheers
Lee
18 April 2006, 06:44 PM
#184
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I would like to point out that there was no evidence of this weight trolley until you mentioned it 3/4 of the way through the thread. I would also like to point out you are breaking every HSE law I can think of regarding lifting.
HSE have seen you work? Not working like you are in those pics they haven't.
HSE have seen you work? Not working like you are in those pics they haven't.
18 April 2006, 06:47 PM
#185
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Originally Posted by paulg1979
I've had HSE turn up on two jobs in the past and have a guess what. They were happy. Surprise surprise!! Must have been lucky them times Ben.
I have known people be arrested, prosecuted and fined though.
The HSE also have a shortage of experienced inspectors, especially in the factory and construction sectors. Some inspectors are straight out of uni and way out of there depth in anything other than a simple environment.
Training is a massive issue for the HSE at the moment, 18 people died in confined spaces over last year and some were meter readers working for the new split utility companies. These new companies have setup not understanding the risks or the law, they have not sufficiently trained their employees and people have died. Prosecutions will follow and rightly so.
Some of the regs are a bit over the top but I believe 95% are worth having and so are the HSE. When organisations get above themselves and safety takes a back seat we end up with a Piper Alpha disaster.
Cheers
Lee
18 April 2006, 07:01 PM
#186
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Originally Posted by ben44
I would like to point out that there was no evidence of this weight trolley until you mentioned it 3/4 of the way through the thread. I would also like to point out you are breaking every HSE law I can think of regarding lifting.
HSE have seen you work? Not working like you are in those pics they haven't.
HSE have seen you work? Not working like you are in those pics they haven't.
18 April 2006, 07:08 PM
#187
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Originally Posted by logiclee
. When organisations get above themselves and safety takes a back seat we end up with a Piper Alpha disaster.
Cheers
Lee
Cheers
Lee
Chip
18 April 2006, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by paulg1979
There are hardly any buildings with eyebolts fitted.
Don't worry about my business, I do my damnest everyday to keep it away from numpties like you.
If you have no idea of the laws that cover your job, then you are a fool. Your employeer (Even if you sub contract to them) should advise you on the correct way to do your job. I would recommend that you learn them.
Until you do, please stay off the ropes. I've spent along time building up a business and I could do without people like you destroying it by association.
18 April 2006, 07:58 PM
#189
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Originally Posted by Chip
That's right. Goes to show how easy it is to have an accident with such tragic consequences. And Piper Alpha was ultimately down to a **** up with the permitry and not somebody cutting corners where safety was concerned.
Chip
Chip
Cheers
Lee
18 April 2006, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrisgr31
Life is dangerous and paradoxically the safer we make people feel the more risks they take. In my opinion thats why casulty figures on the road don;t show a real decrease, drivers feels so safe, they take more risks and therefore crash!
Chip
18 April 2006, 08:08 PM
#191
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Originally Posted by ben44
Says it all really.
Don't worry about my business, I do my damnest everyday to keep it away from numpties like you.
If you have no idea of the laws that cover your job, then you are a fool. Your employeer (Even if you sub contract to them) should advise you on the correct way to do your job. I would recommend that you learn them.
Until you do, please stay off the ropes. I've spent along time building up a business and I could do without people like you destroying it by association.
Don't worry about my business, I do my damnest everyday to keep it away from numpties like you.
If you have no idea of the laws that cover your job, then you are a fool. Your employeer (Even if you sub contract to them) should advise you on the correct way to do your job. I would recommend that you learn them.
Until you do, please stay off the ropes. I've spent along time building up a business and I could do without people like you destroying it by association.
18 April 2006, 08:12 PM
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LMFAO
I'll keep an eye out for you being in court for failure to understand pretty much every law in your new business!
What a prized idiot.
Will this mean you'll be earning £305 per day?
I'll keep an eye out for you being in court for failure to understand pretty much every law in your new business!
What a prized idiot.
Will this mean you'll be earning £305 per day?
18 April 2006, 08:15 PM
#193
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Originally Posted by paulg1979
You won't have to worry about me being on ropes anymore because i'll have guys doing it for me.
It's not pleasant I can assure you and ignorance is no defence.
Cheers
Lee
18 April 2006, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by logiclee
Then you really need to get yourself on a good course such as NEBOSH, if one of your guys does hurt himself or someone else by cutting corners it's still you who will end up in the dock if your company is not 100% clean.
It's not pleasant I can assure you and ignorance is no defence.
Cheers
Lee
It's not pleasant I can assure you and ignorance is no defence.
Cheers
Lee
18 April 2006, 08:23 PM
#195
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Originally Posted by ben44
LMFAO
I'll keep an eye out for you being in court for failure to understand pretty much every law in your new business!
What a prized idiot.
Will this mean you'll be earning £305 per day?
I'll keep an eye out for you being in court for failure to understand pretty much every law in your new business!
What a prized idiot.
Will this mean you'll be earning £305 per day?
£305 would probably be a bad day!!
It seems to me your wages must be pretty lame!! O well!! You need fast and efficient workers like me.
18 April 2006, 08:24 PM
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I've followed this thread with great interest from the beginning, and I'd just like to say to paulg1979:
"Gerrin' them corners! Were you trained on a ship?"
"Gerrin' them corners! Were you trained on a ship?"
18 April 2006, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubba po
I've followed this thread with great interest from the beginning, and I'd just like to say to paulg1979:
"Gerrin' them corners! Were you trained on a ship?"
"Gerrin' them corners! Were you trained on a ship?"
Its been quite an interesting thread. I would of been mad to think everyone would of been nice. I'd still love to know what ben uses on roofs to rig!!
18 April 2006, 08:30 PM
#198
I'm sure a heap of Health and Safety laws result from lobbying by firms to take care of their commercial interests rather than any real benefits. Two good examples of this type of practice would be:
1. Banning GSM mobiles on aircraft under the pretext that they could interfere with electronic systems, thus allowing airlines to offer their own premium services. All the while the FCC had no objection to people using mobiles whilst on board. Some airlines now allow you to use your mobile - probably because hardly anyone paid for their US$8 a minute calls from the phones onboard!
2. Banning the use of mobile phones in cars but allowing people to install hands-free car kits. Evidence is that car kits are only a little less dangerous than actually holding your phone whilst calling. Car kits are a nice little earner so they're not banned of course.
The motivation to look after the safety of the general public is not always selfless...
Suresh
1. Banning GSM mobiles on aircraft under the pretext that they could interfere with electronic systems, thus allowing airlines to offer their own premium services. All the while the FCC had no objection to people using mobiles whilst on board. Some airlines now allow you to use your mobile - probably because hardly anyone paid for their US$8 a minute calls from the phones onboard!
2. Banning the use of mobile phones in cars but allowing people to install hands-free car kits. Evidence is that car kits are only a little less dangerous than actually holding your phone whilst calling. Car kits are a nice little earner so they're not banned of course.
The motivation to look after the safety of the general public is not always selfless...
Suresh
18 April 2006, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by logiclee
The accident was caused by the permit system but the resulting carnage was made far worse by the lack of training and failure of procedures. Even had the other platforms feeding the fire because controlers were afraid to stop production.
Cheers
Lee
Cheers
Lee
Chip
18 April 2006, 08:33 PM
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I wouldn't ask anyone working for me to do anything the law considers unsafe. (Notice I follow the law, not what I think is correct)
Good luck with your new business Paul. I have a funny feeling you may need it....
Good luck with your new business Paul. I have a funny feeling you may need it....
18 April 2006, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Chip
Lee, yes your right. I was merely trying to point out just how easy it can be to have a major accident resulting from something as simple as not reading what was written on a piece of paper.
Chip
Chip
18 April 2006, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by paulg1979
Nearly 5000 have looked at this thread.
Very few of these 500 I would imagine have the slightest idea about safety legislation.
Chip
18 April 2006, 08:37 PM
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Paul,
Do you carry out a SSRA and have a separate method statement for each and every job that you carry out. I very much doubt that you do somehow.
Chip
Do you carry out a SSRA and have a separate method statement for each and every job that you carry out. I very much doubt that you do somehow.
Chip
18 April 2006, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ben44
I wouldn't ask anyone working for me to do anything the law considers unsafe. (Notice I follow the law, not what I think is correct)
Good luck with your new business Paul. I have a funny feeling you may need it....
Good luck with your new business Paul. I have a funny feeling you may need it....
18 April 2006, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Chip
Paul,
Do you carry out a SSRA and have a separate method statement for each and every job that you carry out. I very much doubt that you do somehow.
Chip
Do you carry out a SSRA and have a separate method statement for each and every job that you carry out. I very much doubt that you do somehow.
Chip
Paul
18 April 2006, 08:40 PM
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Suresh, I couldn't agree more. I have no input on the writting of any laws. If by following those laws I make a good living, everyone who works for me stays safe and those around them come to no harm, then I'm happy with that.
Paul on the other hand has an easier plan. Sod everyone else, I'll make as much as I can in the shortist time with the least effort.
Paul on the other hand has an easier plan. Sod everyone else, I'll make as much as I can in the shortist time with the least effort.
18 April 2006, 08:50 PM
#207
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Originally Posted by ben44
Suresh, I couldn't agree more. I have no input on the writting of any laws. If by following those laws I make a good living, everyone who works for me stays safe and those around them come to no harm, then I'm happy with that.
Paul on the other hand has an easier plan. Sod everyone else, I'll make as much as I can in the shortist time with the least effort.
Paul on the other hand has an easier plan. Sod everyone else, I'll make as much as I can in the shortist time with the least effort.
18 April 2006, 08:58 PM
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Each roof has its own merrits. I would look at each and decide then. One thing I will say, bits of concrete upstand that I can't guarentee are joined to the roof and old handrails would not be my 1st choice
18 April 2006, 09:00 PM
#209
Originally Posted by ben44
Suresh, I couldn't agree more. I have no input on the writting of any laws. If by following those laws I make a good living, everyone who works for me stays safe and those around them come to no harm, then I'm happy with that.
Paul on the other hand has an easier plan. Sod everyone else, I'll make as much as I can in the shortist time with the least effort.
Paul on the other hand has an easier plan. Sod everyone else, I'll make as much as I can in the shortist time with the least effort.
or just cutting a few unnecessary corners . Some laws are clearly ridiculous and need to be ignored and others of course are vital to safety. That people can electrocute themselves after breaking into a substation and then their relatives win compensation because of technical wording on the warning sign is just laghable. Unfortunately if the safety guys go overboard with making the unnecessary a legal requirement, then a few transgressions should be expected. All IMHO of course.
Suresh
