OllyK

But it's not ALL held centrally and if some information is wrong then it isn't a big deal, if your ID info on the database (and it's this more than the card that's the problem) is wrong, then you may struggle to prove who you are as they will be using the database to prove who you are.

So am I, so let's do something that will have an impact on this, ID cards won't make a jot of difference, in fact watch Identity theft go through the roof. The billions this will cost to set up would be better spent on getting more bobbies on the beat.

Indeed - so why make things worse by wasting billions on a scheme that won't do what it claims to?

unclebuck

This is of course what the government wants you to think, but following the logic of that argument - what is the point of having them then?

So am I, but ID cards will achieve none of these objectives. That's the spin the state is using to sell you these things.

The word your looking for here is 'was' not 'is' New Labour have seen to that.

Dream Weaver

There will be some severe repercussions from the introduction of the ID scheme.

From reading the threads on here, and user comments on BBC etc, I cannot believe how many blinkered (labour voting???) people there are in this country with their "i've nothing to hide" mentality and staunch support of the labour party - a complete bunch of no marks and idiots who just cant run the country properly.

A database is very easy to hack into, and it will be a matter of weeks before someone gets in and causes havoc.

I "have nothing to hide", but I dont want my personal details stored for all to see - i dont want my ID swiped in restaurants or pubs to cover the proprieters neck for underage drinking, or in petrol stations or chemists.

How long before the results are analysed and you have marketing companies phoning you even more with offers of cheap drugs for the "condition" you obviously had last month or petrol companies getting in touch or any of the other targeted marketing that comes from the database.

It wont be secure - there will be a human element that has to use and maintain the database - they can sign as many NDA's as they like, but the offer of good money to just let some personal details "slip" will be too much - we're all human after all.

There will be nothing positive at all about the ID card scheme, except more wasted money on fire fighting tactics to cover up bad gov't decisions by the current idiots in charge.

Dream Weaver

And for those who dont care about it - imagine a database mix up which means your ID is frozen, along with your bank accounts, credit cards, access to pubs etc - you would end up feeling like a fugitive

And you can gaurantee it would take weeks to sort it out.

unclebuck

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4860642.stm

There you go. It couldn't be spelt out more clearly than that. A vote for New Labour vote at the next election will be a vote in favour of the creation of an authoritarian state run by imbeciles (with sticky out ears) and faceless gooks watching your every move.

OllyK

The problem is, how do you rectify errors, created either by human data input error, programming logic error or maliciously executed if this database is supposed to be the "master". The default position (looking at the criminal offences they are bringing in with this) seems to be, the DB is correct, if it isn't it's your fault and here's a nice big fine.

So somebody goofs your address, you don't get the docs back for you to check the details and confirm data entry is correct, you call but they won't accept you are who you say you are becuase your details don't match what's on file. You then have to present yourself at some government office with at least 5 bits of "other ID" to get your ID corrected. It's going to be one monumental FU.

M1BJR

Im not a staunch supporter of NL but I do see a very successful economy that is one of the strongest in the EU, and indeed the world at present. this is not by accident, more by good management.

Whilst I understand some of the very good points you make about security and the 'human' element - don't you think these are already a problem though?

Everyone with negative views on these cards seems to believe they will be the 'be-all and end-all' application, replacing visa cards, passports, drivers licence etc, and all the info contained on them will be made available to marketing, retail, et-al.

Highly improbable to say the least. To make the system acceptable then it has to be seen to be safe & transparent or there will be no uptake, or worse a backlash (the Conservative poll tax scenario for example).

After all, do you know what's already on the chip or strip of your bank card? Ever tried to find out? Who has access to the info?
Not a different argument really, is it?

Food for thought though. The machine is already at work, and you can be sure it's reading all these discussions so it can target it's marketing strategy, just like any business.

Steve.

Moonloops

Interesting !

coolangatta

I'm a registered, card carrying alien in a foreign land. I've carried my card, because it's the law, for years.

Have my liberties, even as a foreigner, ever been put at risk or questioned.
Never! Get over it for ***** sake. You'll be complaining about having to prove your identity before emptying your own bank account next.

Can anyone give a reasonable explanation, other than paranoia (which is a dissorder) that ID cards should not be carried by those with nowt to hide??

OllyK

Or perhaps by propping it up with huge amounts of borrowed cash?

Except it has already been stated that they will sell on your details to riase funds to pay for all this.
http://www.interesting-people.org/ar.../msg00338.html

It isn't, it isn't and uptake isn't an issue, it isn't voulantary you will be frog marched off to be finger printed or you will be fined £1000 for every appointment you miss.

The information on the card isn't the issue, there will be little, it's the huge amount of info that will be held in a big central database.

It doesn't need to market it, YOU WILL be forced to have one, unless NL are voted out

OllyK

I do carry an ID card, it's called a driving license.

It the database that it links to that is the problem, it is massivley more intrusive than any other ID card anywhere in the world, with over 50 bits of data being held that can be accessed by government agecies, police, HM customs etc.

If it's going to be of any use (which it isn't) then you have to carry it and show it on demand, if things go wrong (and they will), you could find yourself in jail under terrorism charges because somebody has mistyped your information in to their database.

We do not need it, it provides no benefit, why pay billions to implement it? That's a good enough reason without all the what if it goes wrong issues.

coolangatta

You failed to answer the point of my argument.
You don't mind your ID being questioned when it suits you.
i.e. when removing money from your bank account, do you?
But when it comes to what you see as an infringement on 'your liberties' it's a different story.
With regard to your drivers license; it only applies to driving issues/offences You are not required to carry it at all times, so is not relevant.
Lets get rid of passports shall we Bu99er it, we'll all become invisible. Won't that be a secure system

unclebuck

Exactly.

coolangatta

"What you see"

Exactly
Not necessarily a realism. Don't overlook the paranioa.

Dream Weaver

You give me a reasonable explanation as to the benefits of an ID card and what positives it will do for us and I too will return the favour of explaining why they should not be introduced.

Chris L

"Can anyone give a reasonable explanation, other than paranoia (which is a dissorder) that ID cards should not be carried by those with nowt to hide??"

Yes, because the proposed cards carry unique biometric data that is absolutely irreplacable. IT Security is my business, I've worked with many government depts. I'm extremley underwhelmed with their ability to make even the most basic of systems secure.

They are proposing to place all this information in one place. That is fundamentally the worst thing you can do. These people have no concept of the principals of good data security and even when advice has been sort from the industry, they have chosen to ignore it.

Everybody should be worried by what they are suggesting.

coolangatta

Reasonable explanation/doubt, as in all legal arguments, must be entered by the prosecution
The defense rests.

But in the interests of continuing the debate. It works here. I live in one of the safest societies of all and I don't think my ID card threatens that status or me Nor do I think it would be a backward step in the UK. Unless your thinking from the perspective of paranoia that is

OllyK

Assuming you mean Japan, that has little to do with ID cards and a lot to do with tradition, honour and the Japanese way of life combined with a very effective Police force.

Your ID card doesn't hold anything like the level of information about you in 1 place that the UK one will.

OllyK

No it's accepted as a valid form of ID by most organisation, for example if I want to get to get cash out of the bank, they ask for additional ID, a passort and driving license are both acceptable.

Why do I need to carry ID at all times? Unless you're going to put people at bus stops and street corners checking ID then what's the point? And if you are going to do that, it's welcome to **** Germany.

coolangatta

Can't answer that as an expert
But my thoughts are as follows:
Do we not, as a modern society, expect ID's to be checked frequently?
Like the person who checks in to fly your holiday jet. Like the person who turns up for his shift at your nuclear plants. Like the person that wants to remove your money from your account.
What is the difference about the guy sat next to you on the bus or passing you in the street. All would have to carry them. No discrimination.
It's equally fair/unfair to all
If a cop pulls you for any given reason, if he doesn't like the answers given he'll pull you. (maybe the card would help).

coolangatta

I live in a very placid, accepting society with a very, very low crime rate.

I carry an ID card. It's the law. Welcome to **** Japan.
Come on over, you'll love it.

Dream Weaver

You still haven't shown me what benefits I will get for my £110 though

What will it do for me?

OllyK

Here's what the UK database will store (note I keep referring to the database and not the card - there's a difference!) Also note the ambiguous elemements that allow them to pretty much store anything else they like. Also be aware that the Home Secretary defines the list not parliament and he can add anything else he wants, anytime he wants:

Name
Other previous names or aliases;
Date and place of birth and, if the person has died, the date of death;
Address
Previous addresses in the United Kingdom and elsewhere;
Times of residency at different places in the United Kingdom or elsewhere;
Current residential status;
Residential statuses previously held;
Information about numbers allocated to the applicant for identification purposes and about the documents to which they relate;
Information about occasions on which recorded information in the Register has been provided to any person;
Information recorded in the Register on request.
Photograph
Fingerprints
“Other” biometrics (iris recognition);
Signature
Nationality;
Entitlement to remain in the United Kingdom; and
Where entitlement derives from a grant of leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom, the terms and conditions of that leave.
National Identity Registration Number;
The number of any ID card that has been issued;
National Insurance number;
The number of any relevant immigration document;
The number of any United Kingdom passport (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77)) that has been issued;
The number of any passport issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on behalf of an international organisation;
The number of any document that can be used (in some or all circumstances) instead of a passport;
The number of any identity card issued by the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom;
Any reference number allocated by the Secretary of State in connection with an application made for permission to enter or to remain in the United Kingdom;
The number of any work permit (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971);
Any driver number connected to a driving licence;
The number of any designated document which is held by the applicant that is a document the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs;
The date of expiry or period of validity of a document the number of which is recorded by virtue of this paragraph.
The date of every application for registration;
The date of every application for a modification of the contents of his entry;
The date of every application confirming the contents of his entry (with or without changes);
The reason for any omission from the information recorded in his entry;
Particulars (in addition to its number) of every ID card issued;
Whether each such card is in force and, if not, why not;
Particulars of every person who has countersigned an application for an ID card or a designated document;
Particulars of every notification given by the applicant for the purposes of regulations under section 13(1) (lost, stolen and damaged ID cards etc.);
Particulars of every requirement by the Secretary of State for the individual to surrender an ID card issued to the applicant.
The information provided in connection with every application to be entered in the Register, for a modification of the contents of entry in the Register or for the issue of an ID card;
Information provided in connection with every application confirming entry in the Register (with or without change;
Particulars of the steps taken, in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) or otherwise, for identifying the applicant or for verifying the information provided in connection with the application;
Particulars of any other steps taken or information obtained (otherwise than in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b)) for ensuring that there is a complete, up-to-date and accurate entry about that individual in the Register;
Particulars of every notification given by that individual for the purposes of section 12.
A personal identification number to be used for facilitating the making of applications for information recorded in his entry, and for facilitating the provision of the information;
A password or other code to be used for that purpose or particulars of a method of generating such a password or code;
Questions and answers to be used for identifying a person seeking to make such an application or to apply for or to make a modification of that entry.
Particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual’s entry has been provided to a person;
Particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion;
Other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.


ID maybe, but this is much more than just confirmation of who you are.

What information is actually in your passport? How does that compare to the list above?

And maybe it wouldn't that's the problem. The carrying of the card is mandatory anyway.

OllyK

Cheap at half the price - more like £300+

coolangatta

Wow! That's a lot of info. But so what?
I've no idea what the Japanese authorities know about me but I'm sure it's more than I could guess.

I'm sure there wouldn't be the same outcry against ID cards if they were only to be carried by immigrants and aliens. Yes?

OllyK

Indeed and WE have to provide it and if we don't or we get it wrong, £1000 fine. If they get it wrong entering it, we get a £1000 fine, if any of it changes and you forget to tell them £1000 fine.

So as you don't know what is held on yours, I'm guessing you don't have to do all this as well?

OllyK

What's the point in immigrants carrying them? The only people that ought to carry them are the people who are outside the law and won't carry them anyway.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

You may live in one of the safest societies but that safety was not brought about by ID cards it was brought about by Japanese culture, and respect amased over hundreds of years.

I live in Southern Germany and I also live in the safest society I have ever lived in, but again that is down to the culture and mutual respect of the society not by carrying an ID card.

The Germans carry ID cards but I do not, I do not need one, no idea why but I just don't. Me not having an ID card is not going to make me a menace to society similar to if I already was a menace to society making me carry one will not suddenly make me mend my ways.

coolangatta

So you advocate chav/pikey ID cards. I know I do

I've provided many pieces of info during my years here with the usual warnings of penalties should it be false info.
Still I have no problems carrying the card. I've now't to hide. Have you?

Dream Weaver

You'd make a good politician, you keep ignoring my question.

You may only say "so what", bit what will the benefits be to the average person?

All i'm seeing is billions of our money wasted and no benefits - what will it do for me, I ask again?

How has the ID card in Japan made your life more rewarding?