Big Brother has got his own way
30 March 2006, 02:18 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by coolangatta
So you advocate chav/pikey ID cards. I know I do
I've provided many pieces of info during my years here with the usual warnings of penalties should it be false info.
Still I have no problems carrying the card. I've now't to hide. Have you?
Still I have no problems carrying the card. I've now't to hide. Have you?
30 March 2006, 02:24 PM
#62
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Originally Posted by Dream Weaver
You'd make a good politician, you keep ignoring my question.
You may only say "so what", bit what will the benefits be to the average person?
All i'm seeing is billions of our money wasted and no benefits - what will it do for me, I ask again?
How has the ID card in Japan made your life more rewarding?
You may only say "so what", bit what will the benefits be to the average person?
All i'm seeing is billions of our money wasted and no benefits - what will it do for me, I ask again?
How has the ID card in Japan made your life more rewarding?
On the other hand it smoothes the way to all sorts of niceties. Not least the issue of a multi re-entry visa. I don't have to queue up with the 'foreigners' when I arrive at Narita (Tokyo airport) 'See!' they know who I am so 'come on in'.
Must go to bed now as it's getting late. I'll be sure to carry my ID to the bedroom incase my GF asks for it
Multi re-entry? You must be kidding, I'm tired Thanks for the debate.
30 March 2006, 02:26 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by OllyK
No, because the cost of implementing the system would be better invested in more police officers, I was being facetious.
I don't have anything to hide from those that have a valid reason for knowing, but I am keen not to have my personal information all in one place where it can easily be compromised and used by somebodyelse to incriminate me.
I don't have anything to hide from those that have a valid reason for knowing, but I am keen not to have my personal information all in one place where it can easily be compromised and used by somebodyelse to incriminate me.
Incriminate you for what?
Thanks.
Coolangatta.
30 March 2006, 02:33 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by Wurzel
What time is it in Japan now then?
Soon be time to go to work again!But I'll be in the pub on Friday night while you Europeans are still at work !!!
Last edited by coolangatta; 30 March 2006 at 02:38 PM.
30 March 2006, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by coolangatta
Sorry, one last question.
Incriminate you for what?
Thanks.
Coolangatta.
Incriminate you for what?
Thanks.
Coolangatta.
30 March 2006, 03:32 PM
#69
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Originally Posted by coolangatta
It has a cute little photo of me on it
On the other hand it smoothes the way to all sorts of niceties. Not least the issue of a multi re-entry visa. I don't have to queue up with the 'foreigners' when I arrive at Narita (Tokyo airport) 'See!' they know who I am so 'come on in'.
Must go to bed now as it's getting late. I'll be sure to carry my ID to the bedroom incase my GF asks for it Multi re-entry? You must be kidding, I'm tired
Thanks for the debate.
On the other hand it smoothes the way to all sorts of niceties. Not least the issue of a multi re-entry visa. I don't have to queue up with the 'foreigners' when I arrive at Narita (Tokyo airport) 'See!' they know who I am so 'come on in'.
Must go to bed now as it's getting late. I'll be sure to carry my ID to the bedroom incase my GF asks for it
Multi re-entry? You must be kidding, I'm tired Thanks for the debate.
I'd rather my £110/300 be spent on stuff we really need.
30 March 2006, 03:34 PM
#70
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Originally Posted by oobster
This thread is almost bursting with paranoia!
i'm the least paranoid/most trusting person I know (which gets me into scrapes sometimes), but i'm still against the card.
Can no-one understand that it will cost billions, and knowing the UK wont work properly
30 March 2006, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by oobster
This thread is almost bursting with paranoia!
If the database and card doesn't do what the government claim it is for, then what is it actually for and why do they want to store so much personal information about everybody?
30 March 2006, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by OllyK
Here's what the UK database will store
Name
Other previous names or aliases;
Date and place of birth and, if the person has died, the date of death;
Address
Previous addresses in the United Kingdom and elsewhere;
Times of residency at different places in the United Kingdom or elsewhere;
Current residential status;
Residential statuses previously held;
Information about numbers allocated to the applicant for identification purposes and about the documents to which they relate;
Information about occasions on which recorded information in the Register has been provided to any person;
Information recorded in the Register on request.
Photograph
Fingerprints
“Other” biometrics (iris recognition);
Signature
Nationality;
Entitlement to remain in the United Kingdom; and
Where entitlement derives from a grant of leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom, the terms and conditions of that leave.
National Identity Registration Number;
The number of any ID card that has been issued;
National Insurance number;
The number of any relevant immigration document;
The number of any United Kingdom passport (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77)) that has been issued;
The number of any passport issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on behalf of an international organisation;
The number of any document that can be used (in some or all circumstances) instead of a passport;
The number of any identity card issued by the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom;
Any reference number allocated by the Secretary of State in connection with an application made for permission to enter or to remain in the United Kingdom;
The number of any work permit (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971);
Any driver number connected to a driving licence;
The number of any designated document which is held by the applicant that is a document the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs;
The date of expiry or period of validity of a document the number of which is recorded by virtue of this paragraph.
The date of every application for registration;
The date of every application for a modification of the contents of his entry;
The date of every application confirming the contents of his entry (with or without changes);
The reason for any omission from the information recorded in his entry;
Particulars (in addition to its number) of every ID card issued;
Whether each such card is in force and, if not, why not;
Particulars of every person who has countersigned an application for an ID card or a designated document;
Particulars of every notification given by the applicant for the purposes of regulations under section 13(1) (lost, stolen and damaged ID cards etc.);
Particulars of every requirement by the Secretary of State for the individual to surrender an ID card issued to the applicant.
The information provided in connection with every application to be entered in the Register, for a modification of the contents of entry in the Register or for the issue of an ID card;
Information provided in connection with every application confirming entry in the Register (with or without change;
Particulars of the steps taken, in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) or otherwise, for identifying the applicant or for verifying the information provided in connection with the application;
Particulars of any other steps taken or information obtained (otherwise than in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b)) for ensuring that there is a complete, up-to-date and accurate entry about that individual in the Register;
Particulars of every notification given by that individual for the purposes of section 12.
A personal identification number to be used for facilitating the making of applications for information recorded in his entry, and for facilitating the provision of the information;
A password or other code to be used for that purpose or particulars of a method of generating such a password or code;
Questions and answers to be used for identifying a person seeking to make such an application or to apply for or to make a modification of that entry.
Particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual’s entry has been provided to a person;
Particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion;
Other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.
Name
Other previous names or aliases;
Date and place of birth and, if the person has died, the date of death;
Address
Previous addresses in the United Kingdom and elsewhere;
Times of residency at different places in the United Kingdom or elsewhere;
Current residential status;
Residential statuses previously held;
Information about numbers allocated to the applicant for identification purposes and about the documents to which they relate;
Information about occasions on which recorded information in the Register has been provided to any person;
Information recorded in the Register on request.
Photograph
Fingerprints
“Other” biometrics (iris recognition);
Signature
Nationality;
Entitlement to remain in the United Kingdom; and
Where entitlement derives from a grant of leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom, the terms and conditions of that leave.
National Identity Registration Number;
The number of any ID card that has been issued;
National Insurance number;
The number of any relevant immigration document;
The number of any United Kingdom passport (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77)) that has been issued;
The number of any passport issued by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on behalf of an international organisation;
The number of any document that can be used (in some or all circumstances) instead of a passport;
The number of any identity card issued by the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom;
Any reference number allocated by the Secretary of State in connection with an application made for permission to enter or to remain in the United Kingdom;
The number of any work permit (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971);
Any driver number connected to a driving licence;
The number of any designated document which is held by the applicant that is a document the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs;
The date of expiry or period of validity of a document the number of which is recorded by virtue of this paragraph.
The date of every application for registration;
The date of every application for a modification of the contents of his entry;
The date of every application confirming the contents of his entry (with or without changes);
The reason for any omission from the information recorded in his entry;
Particulars (in addition to its number) of every ID card issued;
Whether each such card is in force and, if not, why not;
Particulars of every person who has countersigned an application for an ID card or a designated document;
Particulars of every notification given by the applicant for the purposes of regulations under section 13(1) (lost, stolen and damaged ID cards etc.);
Particulars of every requirement by the Secretary of State for the individual to surrender an ID card issued to the applicant.
The information provided in connection with every application to be entered in the Register, for a modification of the contents of entry in the Register or for the issue of an ID card;
Information provided in connection with every application confirming entry in the Register (with or without change;
Particulars of the steps taken, in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) or otherwise, for identifying the applicant or for verifying the information provided in connection with the application;
Particulars of any other steps taken or information obtained (otherwise than in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b)) for ensuring that there is a complete, up-to-date and accurate entry about that individual in the Register;
Particulars of every notification given by that individual for the purposes of section 12.
A personal identification number to be used for facilitating the making of applications for information recorded in his entry, and for facilitating the provision of the information;
A password or other code to be used for that purpose or particulars of a method of generating such a password or code;
Questions and answers to be used for identifying a person seeking to make such an application or to apply for or to make a modification of that entry.
Particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual’s entry has been provided to a person;
Particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion;
Other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.
At last I wont have to **** about filling in dozens of forms in triplicate everytime I apply for cards, loans, etc. "Here mate, scan that!"
Can I get one now?
30 March 2006, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by unclebuck
Wow! That's a lot of info. But so what?
There are none so blind as those that cannot see.
There are none so blind as those that cannot see.
30 March 2006, 04:45 PM
#74
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Re card uptake & acceptance:-
The poll tax wasn't voluntary either though was it?
Still it was unacceptable, eventually the people made it unworkable and ....well where is it now.....?
Steve
Originally Posted by OllyK
It isn't, it isn't and uptake isn't an issue, it isn't voulantary you will be frog marched off to be finger printed or you will be fined £1000 for every appointment you miss.
Still it was unacceptable, eventually the people made it unworkable and ....well where is it now.....?
Steve
30 March 2006, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by coolangatta
Do we not, as a modern society, expect ID's to be checked frequently?
Like the person who turns up for his shift at your nuclear plants.
Like the person who turns up for his shift at your nuclear plants.
Entry to many nuke sites is by card reader. If you stole the card from an employee then in theory you could just walk right on in. Security is shared by the many familiar staff but in a large operation it would be feasable to go unnoticed for some time. Putting armed police in the establishments is a waste of time if they don't know who the bad guys are. In this instance I strongly believe that retina scans or fingerprinting, in conjunction with such cards is a very wise move.
In many environments more frequent ID checks will only strengthen the security. As we grow accustomed to doing this, it will not be an issue, simply everyday stuff. Hey, we never used to have drivers licences or passports at one time, but I'm sure there were similar objections about 'big brother' at their time of introduction. How many of you protested about the barcoding of your passports and the details held on a database? And the change to photocard licences? Its just a progression of what's already in place and has been for years.
One main point for me is that there will be NO question about the identity of the criminal when he is questioned, or an illegal when he is stopped in the street. Game over. And I will happily spend money to see that happen.
I see the negatives and the positives, to me one clearly outweighs the other. that's only my opinion YMMV.
Let's not forget, there will be more required than just waving an ID card about. I think some of us may have been watching too many Tom Cruise movies.
Steve.
30 March 2006, 05:19 PM
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Yet another measure brought in to control us on crappy security issues. Lets not kid ourselves here, the paranoia isnt here its in Downing street.
Just how much has this country spent on CCTV, gatsos etc etc and what bloody good has it done.
IMHO its not paranoia to be worried about these cards at all. Its the same old *if you do nothing wrong you have nothing to hide* bull**** story. Who's to say that at some point in the future that once this government is gone another will take its place and abuse the information on the database. And with advances in technology, things like swiping your id card into your computer before you can access the internet might be brought in, recording every keystroke naturally
The excuse will be to stop peadophilea and the like, but the reality will be snooping over everybodies shoulder.
Just how much has this country spent on CCTV, gatsos etc etc and what bloody good has it done.
IMHO its not paranoia to be worried about these cards at all. Its the same old *if you do nothing wrong you have nothing to hide* bull**** story. Who's to say that at some point in the future that once this government is gone another will take its place and abuse the information on the database. And with advances in technology, things like swiping your id card into your computer before you can access the internet might be brought in, recording every keystroke naturally
The excuse will be to stop peadophilea and the like, but the reality will be snooping over everybodies shoulder.
30 March 2006, 09:21 PM
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I feel that i need to post this link again (sorry for those on dial-up, it's not small) but it is well worth a watch to see what the National Identity Register could be used for. And don't forget, computers are billions of times more powerful these days compared to the ones used by the ***** 
The government will know exactly what you do, every day - where you went, what you spent your money on, who you "associated" with. If you don't match the "approved profile", you could be picked up for being a subversive. By then they will have extended the "custody without charge" period to 90 days or more, and re-jigged the Mental Health Act allowing you to be locked up "for your own protection" on the say-so of a faceless stooge.
Be afraid, be very afraid!!
mb
The government will know exactly what you do, every day - where you went, what you spent your money on, who you "associated" with. If you don't match the "approved profile", you could be picked up for being a subversive. By then they will have extended the "custody without charge" period to 90 days or more, and re-jigged the Mental Health Act allowing you to be locked up "for your own protection" on the say-so of a faceless stooge.
Be afraid, be very afraid!!
mb
30 March 2006, 10:17 PM
#78
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I share all the concerns raised about the Government's ability to run an IT project of the size required. I would have thought the NHS experience (amongst others) would already have made them think twice.
For the ID card to be useful to me personally (i.e. save me time etc) Access to the data will have to be easy to lots of organisations - both across government and in the private sector. Which is a recipe for disater for security.
"Secure" and "Easy" simply do not go together. To be one, the other must be fatally compromised.
For the ID card to be useful to me personally (i.e. save me time etc) Access to the data will have to be easy to lots of organisations - both across government and in the private sector. Which is a recipe for disater for security.
"Secure" and "Easy" simply do not go together. To be one, the other must be fatally compromised.
30 March 2006, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mart360
if you want a dig at my spelling, dont bother, become a teacher and do better than the ones i had
30 March 2006, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dsmith
I would have thought the NHS experience (amongst others) would already have made them think twice.
Sorry mate - You see, it's not a part of the core curriculum.
31 March 2006, 12:09 AM
#81
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Originally Posted by M1BJR
Um, I have news for you Sir
Entry to many nuke sites is by card reader.
Entry to many nuke sites is by card reader.
The same system is being retro-fitted at the plant I worked previously.
Bu99er! The terrorists will cut off my right hand instead of just nicking my card.
31 March 2006, 06:23 AM
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The current driving licence and passport is not used for tracking purposes. Where you went, what cinema you went to, where you ate, where you shopped, where you got petrol, which pub you went to, which bank you used and when, how much you drew out etc etc. They dont need this information, its not just an ID card but a means of tracking your moves. All this data will be available to others, any 'Bona fide' organisation. Just like the way the DVLA will sell your details to any one who asks.
Dont mind an ID card and dont mind identifying myself but I do object to being tracked as I live my life. Its already been identified that neither the US trade centre terrorists nor the London bombers would have been picked up. So just what fcucking good are these things. Wake up, realise its not ID their after its the recording of your passage which means its control of the population the end result.
Dont mind an ID card and dont mind identifying myself but I do object to being tracked as I live my life. Its already been identified that neither the US trade centre terrorists nor the London bombers would have been picked up. So just what fcucking good are these things. Wake up, realise its not ID their after its the recording of your passage which means its control of the population the end result.
31 March 2006, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by boomer
I feel that i need to post this link again (sorry for those on dial-up, it's not small) but it is well worth a watch to see what the National Identity Register could be used for. And don't forget, computers are billions of times more powerful these days compared to the ones used by the *****
The government will know exactly what you do, every day - where you went, what you spent your money on, who you "associated" with. If you don't match the "approved profile", you could be picked up for being a subversive. By then they will have extended the "custody without charge" period to 90 days or more, and re-jigged the Mental Health Act allowing you to be locked up "for your own protection" on the say-so of a faceless stooge.
Be afraid, be very afraid!!
mb
The government will know exactly what you do, every day - where you went, what you spent your money on, who you "associated" with. If you don't match the "approved profile", you could be picked up for being a subversive. By then they will have extended the "custody without charge" period to 90 days or more, and re-jigged the Mental Health Act allowing you to be locked up "for your own protection" on the say-so of a faceless stooge.
Be afraid, be very afraid!!
mb
31 March 2006, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by NotoriousREV
So, because the ****'s used computers to round up Jews for concentration camps, it makes ID cards bad? I'm afraid I have some very bad news for you: They already do a census and they already know where you live, how much you earn, how much tax you pay, where you go on holiday etc. etc. and ID cards won't change this one bit.
Oh, and you can bet your *** that they will be embedding an RFID chip in the ID card, so they can keep track of you anonymously from yards away - every doorway you walk through, every lamppost that you pass. Look how CCTV has escalated over the last ten years or so - and imagine if every camera could immediately identify you as an individual (or rather, just a number). They could probably even track you through bedroom walls!!
Some people are very naive
mb
31 March 2006, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by M1BJR
Re card uptake & acceptance:-
The poll tax wasn't voluntary either though was it?
Still it was unacceptable, eventually the people made it unworkable and ....well where is it now.....?
Steve
The poll tax wasn't voluntary either though was it?
Still it was unacceptable, eventually the people made it unworkable and ....well where is it now.....?
Steve
31 March 2006, 08:21 AM
#86
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Originally Posted by NotoriousREV
So, because the ****'s used computers to round up Jews for concentration camps, it makes ID cards bad? I'm afraid I have some very bad news for you: They already do a census and they already know where you live, how much you earn, how much tax you pay, where you go on holiday etc. etc. and ID cards won't change this one bit.
I've never filled one in anyway.
It really annoys me that a number of people in this country cant see how detrimental the ID card scheme will be.
I'll say again - THERE ARE NO POSITIVE BENEFITS TO IT!!!
31 March 2006, 08:25 AM
#87
Originally Posted by Dream Weaver
I'll say again - THERE ARE NO POSITIVE BENEFITS TO IT!!!
Sorry - was that a touch too cynical? I agree with what you've been saying throughout this thread
31 March 2006, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dream Weaver
And surely the census is voluntary?
I've never filled one in anyway.
I've never filled one in anyway.
'Completion of the Census form is compulsory under the Census Act 1920. If you refuse to complete it, or give false information, you may be liable to a fine.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/04...t_green_light/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/04...t_green_light/
31 March 2006, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Dream Weaver
Well blow me, I cant remember ever doing one though, when was the last one?