Handed my M3 ass in the twisties by a mint green Impreza sport wagon...
05 April 2006, 10:13 PM
#31
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My deliberate playing with oversteer is on roundabouts in the wet with huge run off and no other cars about - that doesn't happen often. Trouble is that if you have a multilane roundabout it is too big and you need to do silly speed to get the car out of shape. If a small roundabout there doesn't tend to be the space. In reality I usually just induce a small slide by powering it as I'm straightening up, but with NA throttle response you need to be almost straight otherwise you can go quite wide. DSC allows you to lean on it a bit and lets the tail move a few feet if provoked.
Best fun was in a snowy car park, DSC off, 1st gear, fantastic, made me feel like an oversteering god. The reality at higher speeds is somewhat different.
The local skid pan was great with a RWD Sierra
But there isn't the run off to put the M3 on there. Knockhill has insufficient run off to really get a car out of shape - tyre walls are too near.
What really gets me is the combination of RWD with the M3 bounciness. This makes getting the little torque down very difficult, then you wonder what the point is, just seems the wrong tool to take down these roads and enjoy them. On today's run I dropped the tyre pressure by 5 PSI all round and it did improve the compliance and handling, but the Scooby still ate me up
Best fun was in a snowy car park, DSC off, 1st gear, fantastic, made me feel like an oversteering god. The reality at higher speeds is somewhat different.
The local skid pan was great with a RWD Sierra
But there isn't the run off to put the M3 on there. Knockhill has insufficient run off to really get a car out of shape - tyre walls are too near.What really gets me is the combination of RWD with the M3 bounciness. This makes getting the little torque down very difficult, then you wonder what the point is, just seems the wrong tool to take down these roads and enjoy them. On today's run I dropped the tyre pressure by 5 PSI all round and it did improve the compliance and handling, but the Scooby still ate me up
Last edited by john banks; 05 April 2006 at 10:16 PM.
05 April 2006, 10:52 PM
#34
Originally Posted by john banks
Does the E39 M5 (or the E60 for that matter) have a lot more compliance?
The 5 series in any guise just seems more composed in everything, with the exception of a E39 528 I drove with a duff shock absorber and some large expansion joints on a motorway fly-over that curved to the left at extreme high speed (waay past licence losing speed). But I haven't driven an E60 or one fitted with run-flat tyres (alleged to chip teeth). And many people slate it for being too soft and it driving like a barge. So perhaps I'm wrong
As for the NSX comment, well, to be truthful. I never had the chance to properly explore and push the handling limits of it. It just seems impossible on the British roads - I get up to such a stupid speed with the thing still clinging to the road and I start thinking "ok, if it lets go round this bend now at this stupidly high speed, I, and the car will be completely screwed" God knows what the NSX-R is like...this one is a mere NSX-T
I really need to book a track day for that car
Last edited by ALi-B; 05 April 2006 at 10:56 PM.
05 April 2006, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by AudiLover
But the nurburgs bumpy as ****
Last edited by TopBanana; 05 April 2006 at 11:29 PM.
05 April 2006, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by ALi-B
I think the best description is it more progressive in "letting go". I've certainly had dicy moments in many a 3series where it starts skitting all over the place. It was only last week I had some moments in a 325 where some eejit mechanic used the wrong tyres pressures when it was serviced which played havoc with the handling on the bumpy high speed back roads. I know where your comming from when the thing starts bouncing about, it really does whiten the knuckles.
06 April 2006, 08:05 AM
#41
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Its horses for courses though John. On a decent, smooth road with good sight lines in the dry you should have been able to hand the Impreza its **** on a plate.
I had the same thing (bit in reverse) happen to me with a C4 that should have been the quicker car than my bog standard MY99 uk turbo. When the road got very bumpy, narrow and twisty, he just couldn't keep up.
No powerful front engined rear wheel drive car is going to be able to keep up with a well driven, well sorted, 4wd car in wet, greasy, bumpy conditions.
Its not the M3 that's the problem, its your expectations of what cars like that can and cannot do.
In the right conditions, ie decent, dry roads roads where traction is not an issue, there is no standard uk impreza that could, like for like, have the measure of an M3.
But it rains all the bloody time up here - and its not as i you didn't know that.
there is no question, in anything but ideal conditions, half decent 4wd cars require less skill (and perhaps importantly, less bravery at 8 or 9/10ths).
Put, say, one of the McRae's in your M3 in those conditions against that Impreza and the outcome may well have been somewhat different.
I had the same thing (bit in reverse) happen to me with a C4 that should have been the quicker car than my bog standard MY99 uk turbo. When the road got very bumpy, narrow and twisty, he just couldn't keep up.
No powerful front engined rear wheel drive car is going to be able to keep up with a well driven, well sorted, 4wd car in wet, greasy, bumpy conditions.
Its not the M3 that's the problem, its your expectations of what cars like that can and cannot do.
In the right conditions, ie decent, dry roads roads where traction is not an issue, there is no standard uk impreza that could, like for like, have the measure of an M3.
But it rains all the bloody time up here - and its not as i you didn't know that.
there is no question, in anything but ideal conditions, half decent 4wd cars require less skill (and perhaps importantly, less bravery at 8 or 9/10ths).
Put, say, one of the McRae's in your M3 in those conditions against that Impreza and the outcome may well have been somewhat different.
06 April 2006, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by THOMO
indeed ive got 1. i beat m3s every time .my car pulls smoothly away.
06 April 2006, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by TopBanana
Why are there so many low-mileage Evos for sale? Does make me wonder if they're quite hard to live with?
He's bought a nearly new 330ci now and reckons it's a cheap car to run in comparison.
I wonder if the reason for a lot of nearly new low mileage ones is that people just want a new sporty 4wd car but then get a wake-up call from the daily running costs on the Evos and get rid of them quickly?
06 April 2006, 09:55 AM
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how many threads?
on both here and bm3w, John you obviously don't like the m3.....we get it. Sooooo just go back to the scoob which you love, whats the problem? I personally love the M3 however your right on very bumpy B roads the scoob will be long gone as the scoob/evo's are unmatched in my opinion in this area. Personally unless the roads real bad the actual fun of the thing (not just going as fast as i can) is getting the best I can from rear wheel drive and a reasonable dollup of power. I don't race on the road so ultimate times and speed cross-country don't bother me however being in a car that demands respect and not just a heavy foot is great fun as far as I'm concerned.
06 April 2006, 12:41 PM
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try an audi rs4 or new scooby-you should not lose much money on your m3 on trade in, half the problem is you had a well modified scooby-that is hard to beat on those roads ?spec d
martin
martin
06 April 2006, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TopBanana
Why are there so many low-mileage Evos for sale? Does make me wonder if they're quite hard to live with?
A lad where I work bought a brand new Evo 7 or 8 ( can't remember which ). He was about 27 but still living at home so plenty of spare cash. He was driving it quite hard and doing a lot of "recreational" mileage and found the running costs very high so he got rid of it whilst it was still under warranty. Said it was a fantastic car but it drank petrol and ate consumables although it didn't go wrong.
He's bought a nearly new 330ci now and reckons it's a cheap car to run in comparison.
I wonder if the reason for a lot of nearly new low mileage ones is that people just want a new sporty 4wd car but then get a wake-up call from the daily running costs on the Evos and get rid of them quickly?
Originally Posted by TopBanana
Why are there so many low-mileage Evos for sale? Does make me wonder if they're quite hard to live with?
A lad where I work bought a brand new Evo 7 or 8 ( can't remember which ). He was about 27 but still living at home so plenty of spare cash. He was driving it quite hard and doing a lot of "recreational" mileage and found the running costs very high so he got rid of it whilst it was still under warranty. Said it was a fantastic car but it drank petrol and ate consumables although it didn't go wrong.
He's bought a nearly new 330ci now and reckons it's a cheap car to run in comparison.
I wonder if the reason for a lot of nearly new low mileage ones is that people just want a new sporty 4wd car but then get a wake-up call from the daily running costs on the Evos and get rid of them quickly?
If you want top performance then you have to pay top price. I got shut of a 330i to get back into evos. Insurance is about 60% more in the evo... and day to day running costs about 30% more. Whats 30% more for the sheer driving brilliance of a 4wd super car?dave
06 April 2006, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by john banks
Very impressive in the wet, bumpy, muddy roads.
Think it was a sport as it had rear spoilers and twin pea shooter, but no bonnet scoop - unless hiding FMIC. 11 years old, looked tidy.
I could not stay in touch in the twisties, I was trying to be smooth, if I gave it too much I was trying to contain the oversteer, brakes were grumbling, I was bouncing around in my E46 M3. Once on the straights I could pull you in, but it did go as though you had at least a small turbo...
I really need another Scooby!
Think it was a sport as it had rear spoilers and twin pea shooter, but no bonnet scoop - unless hiding FMIC. 11 years old, looked tidy.
I could not stay in touch in the twisties, I was trying to be smooth, if I gave it too much I was trying to contain the oversteer, brakes were grumbling, I was bouncing around in my E46 M3. Once on the straights I could pull you in, but it did go as though you had at least a small turbo...
I really need another Scooby!
I hear they are much faster and better handling that a new age WRX, but then again pretty much everything is
06 April 2006, 02:49 PM
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Just read this again and a few things don't add up.
I could drift my old classic round a damp roundabout with the laggy, non linear throttle response that comes with a turbo. I can do it in my 120d with the stability control off - should be a piece of cake in a n/a M3.
I'm guessing here, but it looks like RWD just isn't your thing. My first car was a mk2 escort on remoulds. Tought me a lot about car control
People say that 205Gti's are twitchy, yet I never had any problems with mine, and I drove it like I stole it (having the naivety of youth at the time). Got it sideways, sure, but then thats what I was used to.
I see too many people being brought up on front wheel drive and, simply, just not being comfortable with power oversteer (or lift of oversteer, for that matter, given the number of "crashed my Scoob" threads that appear on this bbs.)
There is a definite finess required for fast 2wd (front or back, for that matter) driving that you just don't need in a point wheel - plant foot - hang on four wheel drive car.
I could drift my old classic round a damp roundabout with the laggy, non linear throttle response that comes with a turbo. I can do it in my 120d with the stability control off - should be a piece of cake in a n/a M3.
I'm guessing here, but it looks like RWD just isn't your thing. My first car was a mk2 escort on remoulds. Tought me a lot about car control
People say that 205Gti's are twitchy, yet I never had any problems with mine, and I drove it like I stole it (having the naivety of youth at the time). Got it sideways, sure, but then thats what I was used to.
I see too many people being brought up on front wheel drive and, simply, just not being comfortable with power oversteer (or lift of oversteer, for that matter, given the number of "crashed my Scoob" threads that appear on this bbs.)
There is a definite finess required for fast 2wd (front or back, for that matter) driving that you just don't need in a point wheel - plant foot - hang on four wheel drive car.
Last edited by Diablo; 06 April 2006 at 03:04 PM.
06 April 2006, 03:27 PM
#51
Tbh I dont hold much cop with M3's through our scottish roads, but not nesissarily rwd cars in general, an elise for example seems to be reasonable over the bumpy stuff too. You just have to accept that power wont drag you on to the straight and narrow again which does tend to tip the balance in the fun/fear stakes.
Thing is with all newer cars is the quiet refined comfortableness that they have detracts from the on the limit feeling. Over my favorite B road in damp muddy or wet condition my GpN 205 even in gravel set up (115bhp) is faster than my 350+ classic, just due to the fact that you can push on safely at 10/10ths and carry that much speed through corners where the imprezza would start to feel a bit wooly and worry you.
Having said that no one in there right mind would ever live with that thing as a road car. It's all down to compromising for what you want, I think you know all about that anyway though
Dave
Thing is with all newer cars is the quiet refined comfortableness that they have detracts from the on the limit feeling. Over my favorite B road in damp muddy or wet condition my GpN 205 even in gravel set up (115bhp) is faster than my 350+ classic, just due to the fact that you can push on safely at 10/10ths and carry that much speed through corners where the imprezza would start to feel a bit wooly and worry you.
Having said that no one in there right mind would ever live with that thing as a road car. It's all down to compromising for what you want, I think you know all about that anyway though
Dave
06 April 2006, 04:06 PM
#52
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john in the dry my m5 was very smooth and very good through the twisty road's but in the wet it was a real handful
Last edited by craig5; 06 April 2006 at 04:18 PM.
06 April 2006, 04:39 PM
#53
Very interesting, and has put me off a M3 a little. Yet I have been in an M3 whilst it as driving with agencence and on the edge, keeping up with another M3 rag top. And was exetremely impressed in its breaking cornering and ability to put power down. It one of the few occassions I have been genuinly scared for my life, but it done the job and done it very well.
John - You ever tried the EVO thing. They are very hard on the suspension, especially the early ones but do date, I have not experienced any car on UK roads that could keep up. You can drive it on the edge and know exactly where you are with it, and even when you think they are on the edge, give it some more an they just seems to dig in and stabilise itself.
John - You ever tried the EVO thing. They are very hard on the suspension, especially the early ones but do date, I have not experienced any car on UK roads that could keep up. You can drive it on the edge and know exactly where you are with it, and even when you think they are on the edge, give it some more an they just seems to dig in and stabilise itself.
06 April 2006, 07:12 PM
#54
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4WD all the way for muppets like me. Thats why I've just ordered a RS4! Arrives in June. Phantom black. 420 BHP mmmmm
Was very tempted by a used E60 M5 ( due to extra pace and space) but 4wd pushed me to the RS4. That maybe because I'm a crap driver, but hey thats life!
John, take a trip down to London in June and you can take it for a blat!
Was very tempted by a used E60 M5 ( due to extra pace and space) but 4wd pushed me to the RS4. That maybe because I'm a crap driver, but hey thats life!
John, take a trip down to London in June and you can take it for a blat!
06 April 2006, 08:00 PM
#56
I have always found that how progressive a car is on the limits of its grip is the one of the keys to how fast it is in the real world. In the real world of all road conditions and weathers, in my book a scoob or evo is usually the best from getting to A to B. If driven correctly nothing loses grip quite so progressively at such a high speed. Even if it is often understeer which is īless fun ī. Thats the point understeer is easier to sort out on the road you generaly needing less room to do so. (One of the reasons why cars have understeer built in them). Had this debate with SDB a few years back - he could see where I was coming from (As I am trained in TAC driving, Advanced road driving etc blah blah ) He came down on the side of oversteer because he felt it gave him a more options when at the limit of grip.
Obviously RWD is more fun and more involving and takes a greater level of skill to controll. However what is a powerful RWD car going to do on the limits of its grip? - the only way to discover this is to take it on the track and find out how snappy it is and how much room you need to sort things out. You have a moment on the road and donīt wind the lock off in time then that may be your one and only steep learning curve! (The main problem is is that most people with powerful RWD dont get the chance to get a real feel for what it can do on the limit - so when it does go wrong in the real world it may go badly wrong) This is not down to driver abilty but just the lack of opportunity to get a feel for it. Some of the lucky guys on here have powerful RWD and obviously have plenty of opportunity to play about on tracks -this must pay huge dividends on the road.
In the real world of a wet A road on a wednesday morning and you need to get from A to B as quickly and as safely as you can (say you were doing survielance) then give me a scoob with a good set of brakes and a good set of tyres that will progressively understeer at an outragous speed whilst exiting a bend anyday. My point is - is once we take our heads out of the car mags and return to the reality of the real world then the scoob is the best all rounder given the wide variety of road conditions that are thrown at you. Of course Ms and porkers given the right conditions will kick a scoobies ****.
Donīt get me wrong I live in Germany - I love german cars. We have access to all the top of the range mercs and BMWs and they are fantastic bits of kit. Especialy on the Autobahn.
So no suprise that you had a hard time especialy as it sounds like the guy knew what he was doing. Given a smoother road with more sweeping curves then you would have had him. Alot of the german stuff are not great all rounders. Fantastic on the track and autobahn. Audi RS and Porker owners may well disagree with me
Especialy the ones with a lot of track time
Obviously RWD is more fun and more involving and takes a greater level of skill to controll. However what is a powerful RWD car going to do on the limits of its grip? - the only way to discover this is to take it on the track and find out how snappy it is and how much room you need to sort things out. You have a moment on the road and donīt wind the lock off in time then that may be your one and only steep learning curve! (The main problem is is that most people with powerful RWD dont get the chance to get a real feel for what it can do on the limit - so when it does go wrong in the real world it may go badly wrong) This is not down to driver abilty but just the lack of opportunity to get a feel for it. Some of the lucky guys on here have powerful RWD and obviously have plenty of opportunity to play about on tracks -this must pay huge dividends on the road.
In the real world of a wet A road on a wednesday morning and you need to get from A to B as quickly and as safely as you can (say you were doing survielance) then give me a scoob with a good set of brakes and a good set of tyres that will progressively understeer at an outragous speed whilst exiting a bend anyday. My point is - is once we take our heads out of the car mags and return to the reality of the real world then the scoob is the best all rounder given the wide variety of road conditions that are thrown at you. Of course Ms and porkers given the right conditions will kick a scoobies ****.
Donīt get me wrong I live in Germany - I love german cars. We have access to all the top of the range mercs and BMWs and they are fantastic bits of kit. Especialy on the Autobahn.
So no suprise that you had a hard time especialy as it sounds like the guy knew what he was doing. Given a smoother road with more sweeping curves then you would have had him. Alot of the german stuff are not great all rounders. Fantastic on the track and autobahn. Audi RS and Porker owners may well disagree with me
Especialy the ones with a lot of track time
06 April 2006, 08:13 PM
#57
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RobEvo5 - been in Sam's IX GT, and tested VIII MR FQ340. Both and I could easily live with them.
Deep - nice one!
Steve - thanks, all makes a lot of sense.
and I could easily live with them.Deep - nice one!
Steve - thanks, all makes a lot of sense.
06 April 2006, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Whitehorn
I have always found that how progressive a car is on the limits of its grip is the one of the keys to how fast it is in the real world. In the real world of all road conditions and weathers, in my book a scoob or evo is usually the best from getting to A to B. If driven correctly nothing loses grip quite so progressively at such a high speed. Even if it is often understeer which is īless fun ī. Thats the point understeer is easier to sort out on the road you generaly needing less room to do so. (One of the reasons why cars have understeer built in them). Had this debate with SDB a few years back - he could see where I was coming from (As I am trained in TAC driving, Advanced road driving etc blah blah ) He came down on the side of oversteer because he felt it gave him a more options when at the limit of grip.
Obviously RWD is more fun and more involving and takes a greater level of skill to controll. However what is a powerful RWD car going to do on the limits of its grip? - the only way to discover this is to take it on the track and find out how snappy it is and how much room you need to sort things out. You have a moment on the road and donīt wind the lock off in time then that may be your one and only steep learning curve! (The main problem is is that most people with powerful RWD dont get the chance to get a real feel for what it can do on the limit - so when it does go wrong in the real world it may go badly wrong) This is not down to driver abilty but just the lack of opportunity to get a feel for it. Some of the lucky guys on here have powerful RWD and obviously have plenty of opportunity to play about on tracks -this must pay huge dividends on the road.
In the real world of a wet A road on a wednesday morning and you need to get from A to B as quickly and as safely as you can (say you were doing survielance) then give me a scoob with a good set of brakes and a good set of tyres that will progressively understeer at an outragous speed whilst exiting a bend anyday. My point is - is once we take our heads out of the car mags and return to the reality of the real world then the scoob is the best all rounder given the wide variety of road conditions that are thrown at you. Of course Ms and porkers given the right conditions will kick a scoobies ****.
Donīt get me wrong I live in Germany - I love german cars. We have access to all the top of the range mercs and BMWs and they are fantastic bits of kit. Especialy on the Autobahn.
So no suprise that you had a hard time especialy as it sounds like the guy knew what he was doing. Given a smoother road with more sweeping curves then you would have had him. Alot of the german stuff are not great all rounders. Fantastic on the track and autobahn. Audi RS and Porker owners may well disagree with me Especialy the ones with a lot of track time
Obviously RWD is more fun and more involving and takes a greater level of skill to controll. However what is a powerful RWD car going to do on the limits of its grip? - the only way to discover this is to take it on the track and find out how snappy it is and how much room you need to sort things out. You have a moment on the road and donīt wind the lock off in time then that may be your one and only steep learning curve! (The main problem is is that most people with powerful RWD dont get the chance to get a real feel for what it can do on the limit - so when it does go wrong in the real world it may go badly wrong) This is not down to driver abilty but just the lack of opportunity to get a feel for it. Some of the lucky guys on here have powerful RWD and obviously have plenty of opportunity to play about on tracks -this must pay huge dividends on the road.
In the real world of a wet A road on a wednesday morning and you need to get from A to B as quickly and as safely as you can (say you were doing survielance) then give me a scoob with a good set of brakes and a good set of tyres that will progressively understeer at an outragous speed whilst exiting a bend anyday. My point is - is once we take our heads out of the car mags and return to the reality of the real world then the scoob is the best all rounder given the wide variety of road conditions that are thrown at you. Of course Ms and porkers given the right conditions will kick a scoobies ****.
Donīt get me wrong I live in Germany - I love german cars. We have access to all the top of the range mercs and BMWs and they are fantastic bits of kit. Especialy on the Autobahn.
So no suprise that you had a hard time especialy as it sounds like the guy knew what he was doing. Given a smoother road with more sweeping curves then you would have had him. Alot of the german stuff are not great all rounders. Fantastic on the track and autobahn. Audi RS and Porker owners may well disagree with me
Especialy the ones with a lot of track time Allan
