RB5_245

I find, (and I think I'll probably end up out of a real word scenario here) that it's not so much the under/oversteer thats the problem it's the lack of feedback telling you what to do when grip runs out combined with the weight of a modern car providing too much momentum. Luckily with a car that understeers like a std scoob for example backing off balances it back out wheras the rwd car is to slow in it's response to let you know exactly what to do to bring it back into line.

A unrefined raw car will almost email you instructions on exactly what to do in the event of a slide 3 weeks before it happens. No sweat, lots of fun and confidence.

With the grip levels of these cars being what they are physically it can keep up, probably even go faster, but because of things like power steering/ABS 30ft wide tyres it is in effect tying your shoe laces with gloves on. When I drive the GpN you know its going to put the back out a certain amount before it happens. In the scoob you know the limit has been reached, and usually if it will be the front or rear letting go... Even how much it will go... Unfortunately there's limited feeling of how much to correct, and thus it becomes very easy to over correct adding a fear factor to not wanting to slide and on a public road.

I've not spent much time driving big rwd cars, but those I have, if surface grip is in doubt i find it difficult to tell if it will slide a bit, or pendulum out of control which again adds to the fear factor slowing you down even more.

Deep Singh

What do you mean? Its only taken 2 years!

john banks

RB_245, what you say makes a lot of sense also. People say the Impreza is a handful at its real limits whilst flattering the amateur. What I found is that even with about 450 BHP on P1 suspension with bars and braces, anti-lift kit, F1 tyres, 17s, front Suretrac diff, when it oversteered it felt more communicative and natural than the M3 does, although it did understeer a bit more in tight corners at low speeds. With 340 BHP on KW coilovers the Impreza positively shouts to you about what it is doing, turns in like a turning in thing yet soaks up the bumps.

I know that probably isn't fashionable to say, but it is how it felt. The Impreza apparently doesn't handle well and we are all supposed to accept that a modern 1500-1600kg BMW 3 series handles better. If handling is about communication, feel and poise I have to go with the Impreza or a modern Ford over any BMW I've driven If you are supposed to be able to play with the limits on the road, then I think they are less accessible as well. Flame suit now well zipped up and driving instructor being looked up in the Yellow Pages Even progressive throttle control is difficult on a bumpy road because the throttle is too sensitive.

TopBanana

A big part of communication comes through the steering. I've never been impressed with my Scooby's

Nevetas

My GT3 RS is quicker for me round all my favorite roads, inspires me with much more confidence than my STi ever did. Even with no traction control, or stabilty aids like the 996 Turbo has.

No comment on the wet as to be honest in the rain I never drove any of my cars 'hard'. Although I guess the STi would probably be better being 4wd.

But pushing cars in the wet isn't something I'd really do in any car personally.

The STi definatly felt more planted than my M3 ever did though, but the RS makes me the most comfotable I've ever been driving 'progesivly'.

Pound for pond, buck for buck though the STi is a very difficult car to beat. My old one set me back 16k, for the money thats an amazing package.

Nevetas

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

John B
RB5_245

Do definately agree about the communication thing. Although scoobs aren´t perfect in terms of chasis etc. For quick safe road driving I feel I really know where I am with it.

NotoriousREV

I always found my old Scoob to be a bit of an enigma. The steering was very light with seemingly no communication, yet somehow you always knew exactly what the car was up to.

Paul_M

Drive by wire throttle... hate it in every car I've driven with it (which admittedly isn't many). My dad's 330Ci has it, and it just doesn't quite feel right. It doesn't feel sensitive though, I'd imagine the M3 configuration is more sensitive.

Much prefer the good-old cable linkage like my 840Ci has .

Saying that, the 850CSi had an electronic throttle (two actually, one for each bank ) and a switch on the centre console called "EML". It switched between comfort setting (K), where the throttle behaved like a normal car for driving round town or sedate driving etc; and sport setting (S), which gave much sharper throttle sensitivity for a more sporty feel.

Never seen it on any other car, I guess they didn't see the demand for yet another driver controlled setting - iDrive anyone

matchmaker

You know, if I didn't know my Octy was drive by wire I wouldn't know....if you know what I mean.

Shut up and go to bed Alan

RB5_245

I've definetly seen this elsewhere, and racking my brains to think what car it was on but to no avail

RB5_245

When I read your first post I thought that was the idea.... Maybe people had been too nice to you all week at work and you wanted a good flaming

TopBanana

Better get used to drive by wire, petrol engines of the future won't have throttles

Diablo

M3s have sport button as well Dave, which changes throttle response.

RB5_245

And new ferraris...

But it was the landy discovery I was thinking of!

Quite a few makers it seems.

jjones

and vauhall astras

Diablo

John,

I always found the "Impreza's are a real handful at the limit" issue a strange one. Mine wasn't, it behaved exactly as I would expect it to. Not great, but predictable. Maybe too many software engineers who were used to the playstation were lulled into a false sense of security by traction from 4wd coupled with too many hours on a playstation

I terms of communication, balance and "feel", compared to say an Integra Type R, the Impreza was like a lifeless brick.

The M cars, by and large, are quite heavy (both in control weighting and in physical weight) and do feel quite different as a result.

Your Impreza was extensvely modified over standard, and yet you are comparing it to a bog standard out of the box M3. Hardly like for like.

No doubt an M3 could be made more compliant/better damped to make it more suitable for narrow, twisty, bumpy roads?

No one doubts the ability per £ of an impreza, old or new. Thats the beaty of the things. But ablity in manky conditions on , frankly, unnacceptably maintained roads aside, I'd take an M3 every time. Maybe thats because I'm now at an age where I'm prepared to sacrifice its ultimate ability under certain conditions for every other plus point it has over the japanese turbo boxes.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I'm not surprised John.

I have a friend with an E46 M3. Took him for a spin in my MY99 (standard at the time apart from a back box) and he went rather pale. He stated that he just wouldn't have the guts/talent to go as quickly in the M3 as he would in the Scooby.

We don't drive to the limits of our car, we drive to our subjective impression of those limits - a scooby will make you feel like it's all very easy and safe whereas a high powered RWD car wil never let you forget that it's, well, a high powered RWD car! The scoobies talent -and even the evo can't match it on this- is providing max thrills with minimum spills. You can have fun with it without feeling like you're on a knife-edge. I've had some truly memorable drives in mine and havent even heard the tyres protest.

My opinion is that one shouldn't be driving right on the limit in such a way to induce significant understeer/oversteer on the public roads -certainly not when there is any traffic about. Even the most talented drivers including the rally legends get it wrong from time to time, and I doubt any of us come anywhere near their level of driving competence.

The M3 would be a hoot on the track though!!

Ns04

Leeroy

[QUOTE=Nevetas]My GT3 RS is quicker for me round all my favorite roads, inspires me with much more confidence than my STi ever did[QUOTE]

Also about 5x the cost

Nevetas

If you read further down my post you will see thats exactly what I've said.

"Pound for pond, buck for buck though the STi is a very difficult car to beat. My old one set me back 16k, for the money thats an amazing package."

Leeroy

I take the cost thing back. However, you can't seriously compare the two in terms of performance - a 190mph track-biased supercar vs. an Sti?!

cat7

great cars do exist regardless of cost, eg clio cup, basic caterham etc etc. Whats interesting is that the press widely quote the RS as being far from perfect as a road car as its too hard and twitchy, interesting to hear an owners point of view for a change.

Nevetas

I think you can compare anything personally. A Spec C comes not that far behind a GT3 RS on the ring, and it's half the price. Shows how damn good the Spec C is. OK it looses out on top end speed, but it's shaped like a brick and has seats in the back

Origanel post was about an M3, which isn't exactly a cheap car, then STi were bought into the conversation. As I've had all 3 in the last 12 months as road cars thought I'd just share my verdict.

Which is basically for the money the Scooby is tough to beat.

john banks

So we can summarise this thread as follows:

It isn't how they look, how much they cost, it is how well they LAND

Boost II

iTrader: (1)

Banksy, you strike me as intelligent, thorough and analytical from your posts.........


....how come it has taken you this long to realise that nothing can touch a scooby in the twisties.

This is one of the first things most newbies learn from scoobynet

RB5_245

Do they have a switch?

That last plug of a 1.6 hire car I had was an absolute dog on throttle response, seriously worse than the turbo lag of a 20G + big headers on a 2.0 classic shocking (it must be difficult to make respone that bad on an na car), though it did jump further than any car I've ever driven.... including the rally car on stage!

It behaved quite strange when you started it up on full throttle too... interesting things happened......

john banks

Boost II, you're not allowed to say that anymore, but I personally believe it to be true - that first ever Subaru drive in a standard MY99 UK is still imprinted on my memory and nothing has given me the same impression since and I've test driven enough stuff.

craig5

john just go buy the evo ,have left some info for you on the mlr

john banks

Thanks craig5. I've pretty much decided on the Evo VIII MR or XI, few changes in personal circumstances (good not bad ) over the coming weeks may change whether I get rid of the M3 or keep it and will determine how much I stump up for an Evo, so I'm not quite ready to buy this week.

THOMO

we use them for weekends and use our company cars during the week.did no-one tell you? oh well now you know. including company cars ive had about 40 cars over the years ,including 2 scoobs and i must say my evo 6 and evo 7 are the best cars ive had.evos are reliable easy to modify to 350 bhp on standard internals .as a bonus they have not hit the chav bracket yet as there above 10k.