Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Do what!?!

At the very least the entire engine will need stripping and thoroughly cleaning to remove all the bearing material that's been floating round in the oil. Then there will be the full set of bearings that will need replacing (Mains and Big ends)...if your very lucky the crank will be re-usable, but if there's any sign of damage (which there will be if a big end bearing has spun in the rod) it is far cheaper and easier to replace it rather than get a re-grind...add to that the replacement rod.

Next thing on the list will be a new Modine oil cooler, otherwise do you want to run the risk of getting contaminated oil floating round your rebuilt engine? They are nigh on impossible to flush!

The oil pump maybe salvagable, if there's no damage on the gear wheel surfaces...but a new RCMS modified pump isn't mega money...

Then of course you have the new headgaskets, it's a false economy to re-use the originals unless the engine has only covered a couple of miles!

Of course, if you want to bodge it back together and get shot of the car...be my guest

BTW, 20 hours is the amount of time it takes to pull an engine, strip, rebuild (with new parts) and re-fit...that doesn't factor in the time it would take to properly clean (it takes a lot longer than 5 minutes in a parafin tank...even if you have a very funky parts hot washer at your disposal...) the original parts by hand if you decided to re-use them all...

Don't be fooled into thinking re-building a Subaru engine is a 5 minute job if you want it to last!

p1mark

Myself i think 20 hours to do a proper Job is going some!

Of course - [Davey] has done loads so he knows best.

R19KET

Davey,

I'm curious, please post what you consider is a fair price for all the work regarding a re-build such as mentioned here. Please include a breakdown of labour (hrs & cost), and the OEM parts, since that's what would be quoted on here.

For the record, I have no involvement in any of the quotes mentioned here.


Mark.

p1mark

I have asked him this exact same question elsewhere Mark and it was tactfully ignored

SCOOBYD00

No bun fights. This is a post for suggestions in my hour of need boys.. thanks for all constructive suggestions..

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

in all fairness Davey's reply was on about just replacing the spun bearing and a new rod and that is where he was questioning the costs. This is what the original poster mentioned on his first point.

Originally Posted by [Davey]
Your refering to a full rebuild, he's talking about having just the faulty shell replaced and possible rod.

Not just lobbing a few components to replaced damaged ones.

Are we on the same wave length now?

Sorry I dont know how to add the quotes once started, but from the above I think he realises that a full rebuild is a different kettle of fish. He is just voicing and giving his opinion on a question that has been asked, it is an open forum after all! and thats why people use it for help and advice

p1mark

Agreed Scoobydoo.

It may not seem it but there are people looking out for you on this thread who are very knowledgeable (tim/paul/mark) who give sound advice on account of their experience. Davey does not but spouts continously banging on about rip off prices etc when he has no idea whats involved. If you go down his route of a 'cheap' rebuild without proper ionspection and cleanliness then you will be doing it again for sure.

Its not a bun fight - His advice to you is poor so it should be pointed out.

There is no such thing as a halfway house on this matter - it either gets done properly or you will pay in the long run.

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

people should read posts from the start. No offence mark but davey has given his opinion on the first point that the poster made about only replacing the bearing and maybe a rod, nothing else. Im not sticking up for anyone but its unfair for anyone to be slated for answering a question thats what forums are about.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

I think [Davey] is pslewis using an alias.

Paul at Zen speaks the truth, you can just bung it together with dirty used parts and just fix the busted bits and the result you get will be appropriate. If you want performance and to keep the car, then do it properly.

We charge £35.00 per hour, where does that put us in the great scheme of things?

David APi

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

To the poster, choose the above for a rebuild!!! I need the salesman of the year award!! Just kidding, you need only look at posts from David, and Paul and Zen to know who the experts really are and that they're being open and honest with you about quoting for a proper job.

There's a saying in woodwork: measure twice, cut once

Applied to your scenario:

Choose your engine builder carefully, pay once!!

If you choose someone who thinks it's ok to re-grind the crank, then dont be surprised when you need another rebuild a few thousand miles down the road!

It's a big job, get it done right by the experts first time!!

Ns04

Ps David: Apologies for the long PM with rambling Questions. I'll edit more carefully and just get to the point next time!

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

No no not another one

to be honest Dave as I have said in previous posts, davey was questioning the cost for basically doing a bodge job, ie just replacing the bearing and rod which is what the poster asked and not doing a full rebuild

p1mark

No offence taken at all and agree thats the benefit of a forum. I feel that the original poster has been informed purely of the parts that are definetly required, and not of all the rest of the work that will be needed and components that need to be inspected before confirmation of replacement is required.

for example, everywhere oil has been will need to be stripped , cleaned checked and inspected. oilways in heads etc. When its in bits you would be silly not to strip the valves out and check condition etc. It is a lot more work than Davey realises.

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

I think davey realises the work involved for a rebuild, one of his later posts he describes what he would class as a rebuild, stripping valves, reseating etc he has just merely given his opinion on the costs quoted for replacing just the bearing and rod which the original poster said he had been quoted around about 1.5k. That is the info the poster gave.
However what we don't know is if the company who quoted that would do a full strip down inspection, clean replace etc, so on the info available I think he is right in saying it is a lot of money.
And yes there would be some companies that would just replace the bearing and rod and would probably use engine flush to flush the engine! (I dont think the last statement applies to any on here though)

R19KET

jaytc2003,

With all due respect, I have read the post, and know exactly what [Davey] opinion is. What I want to know, is what it's based on !

He has stated that £1000-£1500 is, well shall we just say "very expensive", to remove, strip, clean, replace parts, re-build, and then re-fit the engine.

Since he has also stated that anyone quoting that price is less than honest, and needs stringing up, I think it's more than reasonable to ask him to JUSTIFY his statement.

I would agree, but then you have an interesting perspective, where it's ok for [Davey] to post his opinion in the way that he does !!!


Mark.

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

Mark, I agree maybe comments like stringing up are harsh, but he has given his opinion regarding point one which is

As you see it doesnt say anything about stripping or cleaning, only inspecting. Now to some inspecting would mean a complete strip down, however to others, me included it just means inspecting the damaged parts and where they are connected so possibly in this case inspecting the crank and rod.
So from the INFO given, davey has given his opinion that 1 - 1.5k is expensive.

Now if that price is for a complete strip down and clean and repair etc then its a very good price however to just fix the damage without any remedial action (cleaning, checking all components etc) I am sure you will agree it is expensive, and not cost effective in the long run, hence daveys harsh aggressive comments

[Davey]

^^^ Exactly my initial thought..

If the original post reads as if a "bodge job" is going to be done.. Yes the duff components could be replaced and the engine will have a few thousand miles left in it but not £1-1.5k's worth of life

R19KET

jaytc2003,


1) Remove engine:

2) Inspect: The engine would have to be Stripped to inspect it.

3) Replace spun bearing & possibly rod, labour + parts: Circa 1K to 1.5K.

SCOOBYDOO posted a general list of the re-build quote. Why anyone would make the assumption that it would Specifically exclude cleaning/checking the parts before re-fitting is an utter nonsense.

People are entitled to give an opinion, but if you don't want to look like a complete PRAT, use SOME common sense first !


Mark.





I think it's fair to say the quote is REASONABLE at the very least !

SCOOBYD00

Thanks guys, my initial list was an 'off the top of my head thoughts of my possible choices...' I'm not used to engine rebuilds but thought it would be a good opener for the discussion which it seems to be lol.

Thanks for ALL comments, I am devastated at what has happened to my car after spending large sums of money to ensure it would not happen (inc brand spankng new MAF, best map, fuel system, impecable service history..) but have to now deal with it.

I did not consider the actual cleaning of the engine parts... oil cooler... oil pump etc.. this is an eye opener and It was not included on two of my quotes.. I would rather not comment as there is enough b1tching already about different tuners IMHO.

The bottom line is it looks like one of four options now for me..

1.) Purchase a 2.5 bottom end new

2.) Purchase a 2.5 and do uprated rods & pistons

3.) Pickup a known good 2.0 block / engine

4.) Rebuild exisiting block with uprated internals..

Might still sell on as a project* car...

Anyone interested in taking it on to carry out the work?

R19KET

Scoobydoo,

Another alternative would be to just fit forged pistons to the 2.5lt. That would be a good compromise for a 2.5lt, and allow you to run some decent power.


Mark.

[Davey]

If your happy with every other aspect of the car I'd go for number 3 myself... Or I'd buy a completely smashed to hell impreza with a good engine and use that as donor.

SCOOBYD00

Thats what I was getting at with #2. The stock rods and uprated pistons AOK? would I need any additional work to the new block with diff pistons?

Cheers

SCOOBYD00

My only concern is how bad was the smash and did the shells have oil during the shunt.. is it not possible the crank & shells could have received damage during the smash even if the engine looks ok.. not sure and don't know enough about engines to comment.. just a punter.. with a dead car...

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Trying to pm you but your mail box is full. Maybe 999 other engine builders got there first ???

David APi

R19KET

Well not me David, I've never been one for soliciting for business !

Maybe I'll have to start the PM'ing trick


Mark.

R19KET

The stock rods are much better these days, and with pistons, I would say good for a conservative 400bhp/400ftlbs.


Mark.

APIDavid

iTrader: (4)

Make that 1000 builders

David APi [ and he drove the fastest.................. ]

p1mark

IMHO option 3 is the worst option if you plan on keeping the car - you never really know what you are getting and all who is to say it wont knock another end out in 1/2/3/4 K miles?

obviously if cost is a major issue then its understandable if you have to do it.

st3v3

You have to do what you have to do,If cash is a little *short* then obviousley it has to be 3 otherwise if you can afford it i would go for options 1,2 or 4
To be honest the job has to be done right although if i was in your position i would also probably thinking about how much and where from (and thats just the money)
If you are planning to keep the car then i would bite the bullet and pay to have it done properly,just my 2pence worth.

jaytc2003

iTrader: (1)

why would i look like a complete prat? are you telling me there arent companies out there who would just replace the shot parts without stripping?
Mark I know your very knowledgeable about Subaru's and you do offer good advice, and the advice you have given on this thread is good as well. The cost for stripping the engine and replacing damaged/worn parts is very reasonable,

However read what i have put about the inspect part.

Think before you try to start calling me a prat. Not getting into a slanging match but re read what I have said. Thats the problem on here these days. People don't read things properly.

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

The point we have been trying to make here is that with a flat 4 engine to identify the damaged component and replace it you have to strip down the whole engine! You can't realisticaly get a rod out without splitting the block, at whcih point you have exposed the mains as well.

It is very rare that a Subaru engine that has a damaged big end won't have damaged other big ends or the mains, sometimes if you're really lucky the crank is undamaged...but again, this is very rare. The contamintated oil gets absolutly everywhere isnside the engine, the only safe way to ensure that there is no bearing material left in the engine is to completely strip it and clean the whole thing...unless that is you're used to people leaning over your shoulder while you're working shouting 'YEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA'