Senior_AP

When alan Hansen speaks of things being conclusive it is, more often than not a mile apart from the truth.

Have you seen this evidence ReallGoodMeat....??

You REALLY believe that it's just coincidence that Jol was screaming (literally) PLAY PLAY PLAY, and Carrick happened to change his mind about putting the ball into touch?? You REALLY believe that Jol was trying to "keep Davids on-side"?? If you answer yes, you show a blatant naivety. If you answer no, your entire argument is blown out of the water.

Jol was telling Carrick to play on to take advantage of the fact Arsenal had 2 players out of the game. You can wrap it up in gold paper as much as you want, but that's the cut and dry of it.

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

I don't know, maybe the man says PLAY PLAY PLAY a lot from the touchline!

Reality

Well - you've got to be in it to win it as they say .

Tottenham wont win their last two games .

Reality

Yeah maybe - then again maybe he's an un-sporting fat **** .

ps I once posted that Jeffers was a cheating diving big eared ****

Senior_AP

lol. Go post in the netball forum.

PLAY PLAY PLAY was used cos Carrick had STOPPED STOPPED STOPPED.

Watch it, then come back to the thread.

Senior_AP

Hmm, I think they will. bolton and West Ham will not beat Spurs, nor will they draw I fear.

However, if Tottenham get 4th then it's deserved.

They played well enough to get a draw on Saturday, and a draw they got. It's their manager that has shown a new side to him that soured it.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

IMO Jol shouldn't need to say play play play since Carrick shouldn't have even considered stop stop stopping!

Both Arsenal players ran into each other, nothing to do with Spurs.
Obviously not a head injury.
Even if both players could have got straight back up, they were too far behind to influence play (hence why one 'chose' to stay down).

What Jol did IMO isn't unsporting, its just taking advantage of the situation described above, Spurs had 3 on 2. Play the game, whether that situation has arisen through skill, luck or the opposing teams bad luck.

Now if a guy is down injured and playing people onside, then a different matter etc, could well be considered unsporting. But in this incident I didn't see any unsporting behaviour.

Neutral POV

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

Arsenal v Sheff Utd. 2003 - Skip to about 40secs in...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/audio/39...ort_wenger.ram

www.bad-as-each-other.net

Senior_AP

This was put to bed about 10 posts ago.

In that case, the players (nameley Overmars and Kanu) were in the wrong. Wenger accepted and the game was re-played.

Didn't see wenger screaming for them to take advantage did you?? No.

I see your little URL "bad-as-each-other". Glad you now realise that it was a bad thing to do by Jol.

Took 5 or 6 posts but got there in the end eh.

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

Double Post

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

Not in my opinion, I thought Tottenham did nothing wrong. But you obviously felt it was wrong, hence the "bad as each other". This wasn't the Kanu/Overmars goal, it was a Ljungburg goal (the game you are talking about was in 1999, so at you!).

Now where did I put that pot and kettle..

Reality

No such thing - unless you're a girl or a poof

Senior_AP

Ahh, yes I recall.

Yes, Arsenal players played on - not something that I strictly am proud of. didn't see Wenger cheering them on though did you??

AGAIN, does this change whether shouting PLAY PLAY PLAY at Carrick is any less/more unsporting??? No, it's irrelevent. unless you are an advocate of 2 wrongs make a right of course.

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

Oh it's irrelevant. Ok.

Senior_AP

Yes it is utterly!! 2 seperate incidents. I'm not condoning either. I am taking them both on their own merits. I'm talking about the incident on Saturday, that is it.

What on earth have 2 totally separate, and different incidents got to do with each other? None.

Arsene Wenger could have murdered someone in the past, Arsenal could be a bunch of paedophiles for god's sake but I'd still say Jol's actions were unsporting!! Is there any light at the end of that tunnel???? Anything??? No nothing....

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

The only difference I can see is that (assuming Arsene didn't cheer his players on in that game, i haven't seen it and I doubt there was a microphone in earshot or Arsene) the Arsenal players didn't for one second hesitate in stopping play whereas the Tottenham player did. Therefore Martin Jol (may have) directed his player to do what an Arsenal player would have done.

Where's the unsporting behaviour!?!?!!?!?!??!?!!?!?!!?!?!?

Senior_AP

You're assuming here that I considered Arsenal's play to be sporting. When have I said that....? Hint towards: "not something that I strictly am proud of".

Keep trying, and stop assuming.

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

In that case, can you point me to any threads you've posted about said incidents?? Or is this particular issue of merit.

The complete lack of any balance this thread makes your opinions irrelevant surely!

Senior_AP

By suggesting Jol's actions are unsporting is in no way stating that any of Wengers previous actions have not been so.

My point, and the ORIGINAL thread title is highlighting Jol, and my opinion that his actions were unsporting. what relevance does any action, of any other person on this planet have to do with this specific incident?

Statements like: "Arsenal players dive, Wenger lies etc etc". I know this....! Does the fact that Wenger is not perfect change what Jol did and said? Should it change my opinion on it?? No, as I'm looking at this incident, and doing so on it's own merit. People seem to think that because Wenger has lied in the past it should make me change my opinion on Jol's actions? Why should it?

Wth regards to balance, my comment: "not something that I strictly am proud of" suggests that I have previously not been totally impressed with Wengers actions - but again this is not relevant on my opinion of Jol on the matter in hand.

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

It was not unsporting though which is what you fail to grasp. If anything it was sporting because he played withing the accepted boundries of the game. You just feel hard done to as a Arsenal supporter. Sad that a once good team is now having to cling to things like this...

Reality

Almost as sad as a once GREAT team not being able to beat a relegated team to keep the Premiership title alive .

Senior_AP

STI wanna Subaru.

The thread topic has gone wildly off track.

If it helps people, I fully accept Wenger has lied before.

My gripe is the (what I deem to be) bad sportsmanship on Jol's part.

It's so funny with football, I question something said from another teams manager, and instead of reasonable debate, I get back "Well Wenger this, and Arsenal that". whatever that argument, it doesn't detract from the thread itself - the incident with Jol.

Reality

Don't try arguing with Utd fans - it's almost as bad a trying to convince Liverpool fans it's not 1970 anymore

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

I'm on the wind up

Fact is most people other than Arsenal fans don't see anything wrong with the goal and what happened. Yes they could have been very sporting and kicked the ball out but what they did was perfectly acceptable to most other fans so to play on was not seen as unsporting.

you still fail to comment though on the buildup to the goal your team scored. if your man was sporting he would have stopped once he gained the ball by repeatedly kicking the back of the Spurs players legs.

LUCKO

iTrader: (3)

cannot believe this thread is still going Senior_AP you will need a ladder soon as your spade isn't working

Senior_AP

I don't think it's the club they support, nor the associated mentality which is causing the problem.

It's the age old "if I question something to do with your club the immediate response is an attack on something previously done by my fotball club".

Wenger could have ran onto the pitch and kicked a spurs player in the face, but my thoughts on the Jol incident would be no different.

If a chelsea fan say's "Reyes is a diver" my response would be "yes, I know" or "no, I disagree" however on here the response would be "yeah but so is Drogba, and Gallas is gay, and Mourinho is a bell end".

Mad.

Senior_AP

"They" being the Spurs players aren't what I consider to be unsporting. It's Jol's blatant opportunism in taking advantage by Arsenals' disadvantage which I consider to be unsporting. As soon as he saw 2 players down he saw an opportunity and the PLAY PLAY PLAY, coupled with his tone, to me, said it all.

I will say this, 1 more time.....I would be equaly as dissappointed if this was not Arsenal - just less annoyed by it.

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

We know but the majority don't consider what he did to be unsporting. So although that is your view you are in a very small minority.

If you scored that goal tomorrow night I would put money on you would say it was fine and Wenger was within his rights to do it.

Senior_AP

1. I may be in a minortiy, but that doesn't necessarily make my opinion incorrect. Hell, we live in Labour government after all, point in case.

That's the great thing with opinion, it's subjective. I considered Jol to be unsporting, others may not. However I'm glad that we've established that the PLAY PLAY PLAY was aimed at Carrick for an advantage and not to Davids to "keep him on side". lol.



2. Why everyone started saying "well Wenger this" and "Arsenal players that" I'll never know as not once did I make reference to Wenger or Arsenal players. Merely the incident in question.



3. You are wrong, if Wenger had shouted PLAY PLAY PLAY cos opposition players were down I would not be impressed. Maybe a rye smile on my part but in all honesty I couldn't accept it as sporting as in my opinion, it quite simply is not.