Martin Jol/sportsmanship
#61
Originally Posted by Senior_AP
I don't think it's the club they support, nor the associated mentality which is causing the problem.
#62
Originally Posted by Reality
It's because they're northerners and don't understand Sport.
Whatever the reasons, I considered it to be unsporting on Jol's part. Others don't.
the thread was never a "Arsenal are whiter than white" and why everyone took it down that route I'll never know. classic football fan mentality, defend own club by blindly attacking the other.
#63
Originally Posted by Senior_AP
classic football fan mentality, defend own club by blindly attacking the other.
You sure you're not a closet Chelscum fan
#64
Originally Posted by Reality
What's wrong with that ?
You sure you're not a closet Chelscum fan
You sure you're not a closet Chelscum fan
Chelsea fan? No not the last time I checked. Though I respect how they play, their consistency to play the way they do is admirable in the league - however they need to be a little less, how can I say, "rigid" in europe if they ever want to do any better than they have done in the last 2 seasons.
Last edited by Senior_AP; 25 April 2006 at 09:10 AM.
#65
I didn't catch a replay of this, can anyone point me to where one may be hosted? Either that or factually state exactly what happened and what "injury" was incurred?
This is being talked about on a few referee boards with differing opinions......
cheers.
This is being talked about on a few referee boards with differing opinions......
cheers.
#66
2 Arsenal players collided as Spurs player got past them before a challenge was made. Gilberto was down but getting up, Eboue was, from the outset, on the deck clutching his shin and wincing - and at no point "started getting up".
Again, my gripe isn't the fact they played on - it's Jol, what he said, and the tone - it made it blatant that his thoughts were unsporting after seeing this "golden opportunity" to gain advantage.
I saw the Match Of The Day coverage, however at that point they were unaware of Jol screaming for Carrick to 'PLAY PLAY PLAY!!'. So they were backing up Spurs for playing on. At that point, the debate was open and either opinion was, to me, a fair one.
However, waking up sunday morning to hear Jol saying that just made me think HE was unsporting in his encouragemenmt to gain advantage through an opponents disadvantage.
PLAY PLAY PLAY!!! - For me, those 3 words, and the context in which they were used changed everything. Jol was blatant in seeing that opportunity through the fact 2 Arsenal players were on the deck and therefore inactive.
I'm not complaining about the goal.
I'm not complaining about the rule on this point.
I am simply saying that for a manager to get a proverbial stiffy because he saw an opportunity to score a goal in an unsporting manner, and to then scream what he did to his player to ensure FULL advantage was taken from our disadvantage showed unsporting behaviour. ON MARTIN JOL'S PART.
Listen to his tone when he shouts it, you can almost hear his brain working overtime, he shouted PLAY PLAY PLAY, he was thinking "quick Carrick quick QUICK they're on the deck and we can score from this, seriously, Eboue is on the ground so the left flank is open!!...PLAY PLAY PLAY!!".
That shows unsporting behaviour on Jol's part. If the goal had been scored without Jol screaming what he did then I'd not be too happy - but I would have no real cause for complaint.
The rules weren't at fault here, the goal was totally legitimate, a good finish from Robbie Keane it was as well - this however is not my point. As thread title, my point is Martin Jol's unsporting attitude.
I can't state this clearly enough - Martin Jol is my gripe - nothing else, not the goal, not Carrick, not davids, not Keane, not Spurs FC.
HTH.
Again, my gripe isn't the fact they played on - it's Jol, what he said, and the tone - it made it blatant that his thoughts were unsporting after seeing this "golden opportunity" to gain advantage.
I saw the Match Of The Day coverage, however at that point they were unaware of Jol screaming for Carrick to 'PLAY PLAY PLAY!!'. So they were backing up Spurs for playing on. At that point, the debate was open and either opinion was, to me, a fair one.
However, waking up sunday morning to hear Jol saying that just made me think HE was unsporting in his encouragemenmt to gain advantage through an opponents disadvantage.
PLAY PLAY PLAY!!! - For me, those 3 words, and the context in which they were used changed everything. Jol was blatant in seeing that opportunity through the fact 2 Arsenal players were on the deck and therefore inactive.
I'm not complaining about the goal.
I'm not complaining about the rule on this point.
I am simply saying that for a manager to get a proverbial stiffy because he saw an opportunity to score a goal in an unsporting manner, and to then scream what he did to his player to ensure FULL advantage was taken from our disadvantage showed unsporting behaviour. ON MARTIN JOL'S PART.
Listen to his tone when he shouts it, you can almost hear his brain working overtime, he shouted PLAY PLAY PLAY, he was thinking "quick Carrick quick QUICK they're on the deck and we can score from this, seriously, Eboue is on the ground so the left flank is open!!...PLAY PLAY PLAY!!".
That shows unsporting behaviour on Jol's part. If the goal had been scored without Jol screaming what he did then I'd not be too happy - but I would have no real cause for complaint.
The rules weren't at fault here, the goal was totally legitimate, a good finish from Robbie Keane it was as well - this however is not my point. As thread title, my point is Martin Jol's unsporting attitude.
I can't state this clearly enough - Martin Jol is my gripe - nothing else, not the goal, not Carrick, not davids, not Keane, not Spurs FC.
HTH.
Last edited by Senior_AP; 25 April 2006 at 09:48 AM.
#67
Originally Posted by Little Miss WRX
I didn't catch a replay of this, can anyone point me to where one may be hosted? Either that or factually state exactly what happened and what "injury" was incurred?
This is being talked about on a few referee boards with differing opinions......
cheers.
This is being talked about on a few referee boards with differing opinions......
cheers.
Slightly unsporting I supose But nothing compared to that diving cheating ugly chelsea tosser Drossba .
#69
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Originally Posted by Senior_AP
2 Arsenal players collided as Spurs player got past them before a challenge was made. Gilberto was down but getting up, Eboue was, from the outset, on the deck clutching his shin and wincing - and at no point "started getting up".
Again, my gripe isn't the fact they played on - it's Jol, what he said, and the tone - it made it blatant that his thoughts were unsporting after seeing this "golden opportunity" to gain advantage.
I saw the Match Of The Day coverage, however at that point they were unaware of Jol screaming for Carrick to 'PLAY PLAY PLAY!!'. So they were backing up Spurs for playing on. At that point, the debate was open and either opinion was, to me, a fair one.
However, waking up sunday morning to hear Jol changed it.
PLAY PLAY PLAY!!! - For me, those 3 words, and the context in which they were used changed everything. Jol was blatant in seeing that opportunity through the fact 2 Arsenal players were on the deck and therefore inactive.
I'm not complaining about the goal.
I'm not complaining about the rule on this point.
I am simply saying that for a manager to get a proverbial stiffy because he saw an opportunity to score a goal in an unsporting manner, and to then scream what he did to his player to ensure FULL advantage was taken from our disadvantage showed unsporting behaviour.
Listen to his tone when he shouts it, you can almost hear his brain working overtime, he shouted PLAY PLAY PLAY, he was thinking "quick Carrick quick QUICK they're on the deck and we can score from this, seriously...PLAY PLAY PLAY".
That shows unsorting behaviour on Jol's part. If the goal had been scored without Jol screaming what he did then I'd not be too happy - but I would have no cause fro complaint.
I can't state this clealry enough - Martin Jol is my gripe - notjing else, not the goal, not Carrick, not davids, not Keane, not Spurs FC.
HTH.
Again, my gripe isn't the fact they played on - it's Jol, what he said, and the tone - it made it blatant that his thoughts were unsporting after seeing this "golden opportunity" to gain advantage.
I saw the Match Of The Day coverage, however at that point they were unaware of Jol screaming for Carrick to 'PLAY PLAY PLAY!!'. So they were backing up Spurs for playing on. At that point, the debate was open and either opinion was, to me, a fair one.
However, waking up sunday morning to hear Jol changed it.
PLAY PLAY PLAY!!! - For me, those 3 words, and the context in which they were used changed everything. Jol was blatant in seeing that opportunity through the fact 2 Arsenal players were on the deck and therefore inactive.
I'm not complaining about the goal.
I'm not complaining about the rule on this point.
I am simply saying that for a manager to get a proverbial stiffy because he saw an opportunity to score a goal in an unsporting manner, and to then scream what he did to his player to ensure FULL advantage was taken from our disadvantage showed unsporting behaviour.
Listen to his tone when he shouts it, you can almost hear his brain working overtime, he shouted PLAY PLAY PLAY, he was thinking "quick Carrick quick QUICK they're on the deck and we can score from this, seriously...PLAY PLAY PLAY".
That shows unsorting behaviour on Jol's part. If the goal had been scored without Jol screaming what he did then I'd not be too happy - but I would have no cause fro complaint.
I can't state this clealry enough - Martin Jol is my gripe - notjing else, not the goal, not Carrick, not davids, not Keane, not Spurs FC.
HTH.
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Originally Posted by STi wanna Subaru
you still fail to comment though on the buildup to the goal your team scored. if your man was sporting he would have stopped once he gained the ball by repeatedly kicking the back of the Spurs players legs.
#73
Originally Posted by STi wanna Subaru
but it's not unsporting in anybody elses eyes but that of an Arsenal fan.
#74
Jol sounded like an excitable child in a playground seeing an opportunity to win a fight by kicking someone in the face while they had there back turned.
The goal itself and the actions of the spurs players I'm not complaining about. How many more times do I have to say this....really??!?!?
The goal itself and the actions of the spurs players I'm not complaining about. How many more times do I have to say this....really??!?!?
Last edited by Senior_AP; 25 April 2006 at 09:58 AM.
#75
You can CLEARLY hear Jol here on the video. Screams PLAY PLAY as soon as the Arsenal players are down (so is unaware of the extent of injury if that was anyones previous argument) then finally, after Eboue stays down, and Carrick hesitates he screams PLAAAY one last time to ensure full advantage.
The goal IS legitimate, it was fine and a good finish. The Spurs players were NOT at fault.
Jol, within the laws and rules had done nothing wrong but I stil consider his tone blatant in it's opportunism from our misfortune.
In sport, opportunism from misfortune, is a definitive example of bad sportsmanship. That is all I can say now on this matter.
Thanks for posting the vid.
The goal IS legitimate, it was fine and a good finish. The Spurs players were NOT at fault.
Jol, within the laws and rules had done nothing wrong but I stil consider his tone blatant in it's opportunism from our misfortune.
In sport, opportunism from misfortune, is a definitive example of bad sportsmanship. That is all I can say now on this matter.
Thanks for posting the vid.
Last edited by Senior_AP; 25 April 2006 at 10:00 AM.
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Originally Posted by Senior_AP
All these videos are largely pointless, the talk of players putting the ball into touch is largely pointless.
None of the above actually addreses my gripe with what Jol said, and more to the point the tone in which it was said.
He sounded like an excitable child in a playground seeing an opportunity to win a fight by kicking someone in the face while they had there back turned.
The goal itself and the actions of the spurs players I'm not complaining about. How many more times do I have to say this....really??!?!?
None of the above actually addreses my gripe with what Jol said, and more to the point the tone in which it was said.
He sounded like an excitable child in a playground seeing an opportunity to win a fight by kicking someone in the face while they had there back turned.
The goal itself and the actions of the spurs players I'm not complaining about. How many more times do I have to say this....really??!?!?
#77
In my opinion, the ref checked to see they were okay, the player clutching his shin doesn't look in agony - therefore: Play on.
The times I will stop a game for injury is head injuries, in this case I see no problem with the way it was handled and as a coach I would have been yelling at my team to play too!
The times I will stop a game for injury is head injuries, in this case I see no problem with the way it was handled and as a coach I would have been yelling at my team to play too!
#78
Originally Posted by Little Miss WRX
In my opinion, the ref checked to see they were okay, the player clutching his shin doesn't look in agony - therefore: Play on.
The times I will stop a game for injury is head injuries, in this case I see no problem with the way it was handled and as a coach I would have been yelling at my team to play too!
The times I will stop a game for injury is head injuries, in this case I see no problem with the way it was handled and as a coach I would have been yelling at my team to play too!
It's good that you just said what you thought without saying "well Wenger this and Arsenal that".
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Originally Posted by Little Miss WRX
In my opinion, the ref checked to see they were okay, the player clutching his shin doesn't look in agony - therefore: Play on.
The times I will stop a game for injury is head injuries, in this case I see no problem with the way it was handled and as a coach I would have been yelling at my team to play too!
The times I will stop a game for injury is head injuries, in this case I see no problem with the way it was handled and as a coach I would have been yelling at my team to play too!
#80
Originally Posted by Senior_AP
That's fine, and I accept your opinion. We simply disagree on what we define as bad sportsmanship (on Jol's part and nobody elses).
It's good that you just said what you thought without saying "well Wenger this and Arsenal that".
It's good that you just said what you thought without saying "well Wenger this and Arsenal that".
As for bad sportsmanship, I did an under 11's div 1 game a couple of seasons back and their star forward got tripped - in all honesty it was an accidental trip - nevertheless, it was a foul and I called it accordingly.
The player I feel was overplaying the injury (he ran pretty fine afterwards anyway!) and the coach came up to him saying "if the only way they can stop you from scoring goals is to take you out then you take them out even harder". They won the game and incurred several cautions - mainly for unsporting behaviour.....under 11's FFS! District football nothing special!
I was absolutely stunned.
Anyway, sorry to go off topic - I guess with me refereeing grass roots footbal and doing all kind of grades I see bad sportsmanship on all levels at varying degrees of severity, in the case of the Arsenal vs Spurs, if Jol's tone was as nasty as you are projecting it to be then I suppose it could border on bad sportsmanship in a way, but it would be a very mild case compared to what I have witnessed in some games I have refereed.
Last edited by Little Miss WRX; 25 April 2006 at 10:15 AM.
#81
Originally Posted by Little Miss WRX
No worries, I am a Villa fan and have to uphold our reputation of being the nicest fans around.
As for bad sportsmanship, I did an under 11's div 1 game a couple of seasons back and their star forward got tripped - in all honesty it was an accidental trip - nevertheless, it was a foul and I called it accordingly.
The player I feel was overplaying the injury (he ran pretty fine afterwards anyway!) and the coach came up to him saying "if the only way they can stop you from scoring goals is to take you out then you take them out even harder". They won the game and incurred several cautions - mainly for unsporting behaviour.....under 11's FFS! District football nothing special!
I was absolutely stunned.
Anyway, sorry to go off topic - I guess with me refereeing grass roots footbal and doing all kind of grades I see bad sportsmanship on all levels at varying degrees of severity, in the case of the Arsenal vs Spurs, if Jol's tone was as nasty as you are projecting it to be then I suppose it could border on bad sportsmanship in a way, but it would be a very mild case compared to what I have witnessed in some games I have refereed.
As for bad sportsmanship, I did an under 11's div 1 game a couple of seasons back and their star forward got tripped - in all honesty it was an accidental trip - nevertheless, it was a foul and I called it accordingly.
The player I feel was overplaying the injury (he ran pretty fine afterwards anyway!) and the coach came up to him saying "if the only way they can stop you from scoring goals is to take you out then you take them out even harder". They won the game and incurred several cautions - mainly for unsporting behaviour.....under 11's FFS! District football nothing special!
I was absolutely stunned.
Anyway, sorry to go off topic - I guess with me refereeing grass roots footbal and doing all kind of grades I see bad sportsmanship on all levels at varying degrees of severity, in the case of the Arsenal vs Spurs, if Jol's tone was as nasty as you are projecting it to be then I suppose it could border on bad sportsmanship in a way, but it would be a very mild case compared to what I have witnessed in some games I have refereed.
Yeah, I'm sure that there are much worse cases of bad sporsmanship than this, it was just the excitable opportunism of his tone. In summary, he was happy that it happened and he saw a chance to score from misfortune that annoyed me.
Good thread though! All good.
My final question, why did he say he did not see it. Why did he say that he was talking to Davids??? If he had no doubt in his mind that his actions were acceptable surely he'd be saying "yes, I told Carrick to play on by shouting play 3 times". The fact he was cagey show's caution with his convictions.
Last edited by Senior_AP; 25 April 2006 at 10:20 AM.
#82
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Originally Posted by Senior_AP
Nice one.
Yeah, I'm sure that there are much worse cases of bad sporsmanship than this, it was just the excitable opportunism of his tone. In summary, he was happy that it happened and he saw a chance to score from misfortune that annoyed me.
Good thread though! All good.
My final question, why did he say he did not see it. Why did he say that he was talking to Davids??? If he had no doubt in his mind that his actions were acceptable surely he'd be saying "yes, I told Carrick to play on by shouting play 3 times". The fact he was cagey show's caution with his convictions.
Yeah, I'm sure that there are much worse cases of bad sporsmanship than this, it was just the excitable opportunism of his tone. In summary, he was happy that it happened and he saw a chance to score from misfortune that annoyed me.
Good thread though! All good.
My final question, why did he say he did not see it. Why did he say that he was talking to Davids??? If he had no doubt in his mind that his actions were acceptable surely he'd be saying "yes, I told Carrick to play on by shouting play 3 times". The fact he was cagey show's caution with his convictions.
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My own view was that the 2 arsenal players were play-acting - so it was tough-titty when it backfired...
#84
Originally Posted by messiah
My own view was that the 2 arsenal players were play-acting - so it was tough-titty when it backfired...
In your view...
Does that have any bearing on Jol and what he said and the way he said it??
#86
Originally Posted by messiah
I havent heard what Jol said so I've only your word on it.
I'm basing my opinion on what I saw.
I'm basing my opinion on what I saw.
You have to hear A. what he said and B. How he said it.
#88
to quote senior ap 'In sport, opportunism from misfortune, is a definitive example of bad sportsmanship'
So what is misfortune?
- The goalie drops the ball, so the striker lets him pick it up? I think not.
- The defender slips, so the striker waits for him to get up. I think not.
- The players boot comes off - does play stop whilst he sorts himself out? Of course not.
- Two players collide without injury, does everyone stop and wait? Of course not.
So when a manager sees his player about to stop play for one of the above scenarios, surely it's to be expected for him to encourage his player to carry on, perhaps by saying those now infamous words 'play play play'.
And I haven't even mentioned all of the dodgy practices (AKA cheating) that seem to go on every weekend (at every level) in the modern game that REALLY are unsporting & have nothing to do with misfortune.
So what is misfortune?
- The goalie drops the ball, so the striker lets him pick it up? I think not.
- The defender slips, so the striker waits for him to get up. I think not.
- The players boot comes off - does play stop whilst he sorts himself out? Of course not.
- Two players collide without injury, does everyone stop and wait? Of course not.
So when a manager sees his player about to stop play for one of the above scenarios, surely it's to be expected for him to encourage his player to carry on, perhaps by saying those now infamous words 'play play play'.
And I haven't even mentioned all of the dodgy practices (AKA cheating) that seem to go on every weekend (at every level) in the modern game that REALLY are unsporting & have nothing to do with misfortune.
#90
agree, that is misfortune - any Everton supporter will be able to comiserate with you. I've got a Cov fan here who still holds it against L'pool for getting English clubs banned in Europe all those years ago. Let's just hope Barca/Milan do the job & your boys can have a go with the 'big' boys in Europe.