Fuzz

I agree women should have the right to choose whether they should have sex or not, If you are forced into it then that is rape plain and simple.
where exactly does the fact the girl is 11 come into it.
If she was 11,22 or 66. if she consented, it aint rape..
As I stated in my original reply (although scoobynutta555 is saying everything I would have said anyway) it's moral judgement that has made it "wrong" in your eyes, brought about by religion.

Andy

Fuzz

Why the **** do you need religion to tell you the difference between right and wrong.
Moral guidance can come from simply having common sence, not making up stories about some higher being that will "smite great vengence down on thee" if you don't tow the moral line
What a lot of tosh.

Andy

OllyK

I really do hope that isn't what you believe the situation is, otherwise you could find yourself in an awful lot of trouble. Look up statutory rape sometime. Consider whether being biologically able to reproduce is actually a good indicator of being mentally and emotionally ready to have children.

Morals while historically shaped by religion, are by no means directly linked, atheists can be quite moral and a priest imoral. Morals are merely the standards for defining right and wrong set by society.

JTaylor

Well I'll give it whirl because 5th Gear's dull in the extreme!

We (civilised, developed, straight-thinking adults) have a moral obligation to protect 11 year old children from their own ignorance. I'm not concerned with whether her pregnancy is as a result of a Godless society (the definition of which has so many permutations), but with this irresponsible notion that's akin to "if there's grass on the pitch".......

Earlier I asked whether the age of consent should be arbitrary with dependency on the child being post pubescent. Should it?

Fuzz

It was meant to be in context with moral judgements.
I know it's rape if under 16 as it stands.

I actually find it tiring to argue the toss, obviously I didn't word that last post very well.

I suspect that 11yr old knew exactly what she was doing and so did the lad.... Why is that so wrong !!

Andy

JTaylor

So your perspective is that if a girl or boy are physically mature then the law should not prevent them from having sex?

Fuzz

tack on mentally mature enough to know what's what as well and yep, I agree.

Andy

Fuzz

and before you say it, the law shouldn't be laid down to a set age as some will mature both mentally and physically before others and what's great for one is illegal for others.
That is the bit I find wrong, dumming down of the intelligent ones to a level of the thick.

Andy

Ben v7

Andy, I think some people have trouble working out the difference between right and wrong and need telling when it comes to the grey areas. Just making the point that if they were participating in religion then they might think a bit more about what they are doing.

This 11 year old girl is clearly one f**ked up kid - feel sorry for her. Clearly no idea what she is doing, drinking, smoking and ********. Don't think society can protect people like that, especially when her parent clearly can't care less but somehow is proud of her.

I do think underage sex like this is common, but agree the age of consent should be 16 or there abouts, as ensures people fully appreciate what they are doing regardless of whether their bodies are 'ready' or not - protects people from being taken advantage of as may have been the case with this 15 year old.

OllyK

Considering she said she didn't think she'd get pregnant on her first time and that she has smoked through the pregnancy as she doesn't consider it will harm the baby is a pretty good indication to me that she hasn't got a damn clue.

OllyK

So if age is not a consideration but physical and metal maturity is - how do you plan to determine who can and can't have sex? How will you measure and control it? Are you going to deny a 25 year old who's a bit slow, but allow an 11 year old? Who makes the decision? How will you prevent the vunerable being abused or coaxed in to sex?

Leslie

Fuzz,

Where is this moral guidance going to come from then? The point I made was that religions do teach people to live a good life, to respect discipline, and to respect other people. Children were brought up to follow those principles. That was why in those days this country was a safe place to live at any time of the day or night. It obviously worked because look at this country now!

When it comes to "common sense", Policeman used to actually use that too, and they could sort out a bad apple on the spot with no further worries. We used to see them all the time too and they were respected by the people for the good job they did without screwing the lives of innocent victims.

The Police's slavish following of PC principals these days is losing them the support of the people and once you do that your job is made so much more difficult. This was realised by the chief constables of the day to be essential and they ensured that it continued.

The present mantra of assuming that the victim of assault by dysfunctional teenagers is a likely criminal while going soft on the yobs is the worst policy they could follow. Its long been time that they got back out on the beat, and not "plastic policeman" who are useless anyway!

Maybe you would not have to be asking for more armed police either.

Les

The Zohan

I am Agnostic as is Jenny

We are trying to bring up our kids to be polite well beahved honest caring memembrs of society. I doubt religion will play a part in that.

Religion is just control of the masses (or at east was). It made them accountable to someone if they transgessed the rules and made them accountable. gave them values and morals.

I am not sure that being godless has mde it worse it is don to the individuals as to how they lead their lives and what they aspire to be. but with bad teachers (society and parents) then you tend to get bad pupils andthere are a lot of dros parents out there.

I think someting is needed, not sure about Labours core values but do not have a solution

Geezer

Les, when are you talking about? We have had a relatively brief golden period like you talk about, but historically it is much safer now that it has been in centuries prior to the 20th. It's pure nostalgia to think otherwise.

One of the main problem with modern society is the media, not the actual amount of crime. The media whips everyone up into a frenzy about how we are being overrun with paedophiles and illegal immigrants etc. but in reality, the problem is hardly different than it's ever been.

Seeing as religion teaches bigotry and intolerance, how can anyone say that a godless society is worse off!

Take those rose coloured glasses off!

Geezer

OllyK

I'm struggling to find long term crime stats, I can find figures to cover the last 10 years or so http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page6.asp Can you point me to you source to show that crime has been consistently reduced since say the mid 1800's?

Reality

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib...9/rp99-111.pdf
Page 14.
Geezer would appear to be wrong.

Unless Tony Bliar has got to the research assisstant

Geezer

It does mention in there that reported crime is up, not necessarily the same thing as actaul crime.

Also remember that you could not rape your wife, and that domestic assaults were not reported as crimes.

But whatever, you really are nit picking. Godless society has proved to be no worse than God fearing society, and in many ways better.

Geezer

scoobynutta555

Everything was much better in the good old days
Wake up and stop training to be a Sun editor.

Reality

I actually think that a godless society has indeed had a negative effect on society as a whole. The great unwashed needed to fear something. "God" was one thing that kept them in check. An effective Police force was another. Having no Court of Human rights for scum was the other.

The God bit has probably affected the crime stats by 0.000000001% - The other 2 count for the rest of the downfall .

OllyK

While you may be right on the reported crimes, I suspect a lot is down to people reporting the low level anti social crimes that would not seem to have been so prevalent in the past.

Indeed, new crimes are being added to the list all the time, criminalising activities that were previously acceptable such as fox hunting and being able to drive through London at any time of day you liked.

Society has progressed throughout history in many ways. General quality of life has been inproved inspite of people's beliefs in a deity through critical thought and the scientifc process.

OllyK

The problem is, if you never address the great unwashed, they remain the great unwashed. The way forward is to educate them, the problem with that is that gap period you get between them throwing off the shackles of benevolant / punisher sky daddy and realising that society benefits from self control and acting in a way that benefits everybody. At the moment we seem to be in that chasm, hopefully it will become cool to be considerate and think of others in the future.

Reality

I prefer extermination of the great un-washed.

If you want to learn - Fine.

If you don't - Bullet.

OllyK

Providing you're happy to take up a second job to cover the menial tasks for which you've just exterminated the workforce, fine by me

Reality

I'm not talking about people willing to work for a living.

More like the two scumbag druggies on the murder thing last night. Complete wasters, murdered some poor sod, locked up for 27 years.

Bullets are cheaper

Leslie

Geezer,

I can only speak from personal experience since I don't have access to those statistics, which are usually manipulated to the advantage of the one who produces them for us all to marvel at anyway!

When I was a lad it was safe to walk the streets at any time of the day or night. There was no fear of attack by muggers who are prepared to do anything including knifing to get their way. We did not have to endure the sort of verbal abuse or threats of violence that we are likely to get from today's drunken or stoned yobs, including their charming young lady? companions, often throwing up all over the road!

It was safe for me to go fishing in the local countryside by myself with no fear of attack from yobs or paedophiles. I was taught to respect authority by my parents and at school. I had no inclination to go around wrecking other people's property or stealing. All my schoolfriends (state schools) thought the same way. Of course we occasionally got into mischief, but nothing destructive. We did not have skate parks etc but were quite able to think of something interesting to do in the local recreation ground or in the countryside near us. We were taught to be self sufficient and to recognise danger, and learned how to look after ourselves without expecting that the State owed us a living for nothing.

My point is that children are not taught the necessity of discipline and respect for others if we want to maintain a civilised society. So many parents seem to abrogate their responsibilty to their children and just give them cash to get out of their hair and let them do just what they want and stay out at all hours. If a teacher needs to discipline a child, he is likely to be verbally or even physically abused by the child and/or the parents and the child gets away with murder so to speak. The child knows his rights of course and will use that to enable himself to abuse any form of authority and to be unpleasantly rude towards the teacher or to any figure of authority.

This sort of situation did not arise when this was a religious country. if you are anti religion then you are likely to be biased and likely to run religion down unfairly and incorrectly both because you dont understand it or you may even be looking for an excuse to yourself for not accepting it.

Whether you accept religious teachings or not, you should understand that they give people a good way to conduct their lives which does not mess up other people. There is nothing wrong in that.

Don't talk to me about "rose tinted" spectacles, I am relating true facts as I saw them. And don't mention that we must all modernise and catch up with the real world. With the atrocious behaviour which is commonplace these days, what has that got to recommend it?

I personally am not a "Godbotherer" but I am prepared to accept the good influences of a Christian society as we used to have, or any other religion for that matter as long as it does not force itself onto others.

Les

OllyK

While I don't disagree with your perception, I do think a lot of it is perception, fuelled mainly by the media. I don't think things are nationally as bad as the media would have you believe, but by focussing on trouble spots and odd localised incidents, that they would have ignored due to lack of resources 30 years ago, they put accross this image that EVERY street is end to end junkies, drunk, muggers, rapists and paedophiles.

lozgti

I thought that was a perfect post Leslie and I agree.

Don't think it is just perception Olly.I have experienced all the above.Times weren't like they are now.Children were never like they are now in relation to adults.Just seems to be the last 15/20 years.

Those that keep asking 'when was the best decade' then.I have asked a lot of friends,family and others of the appropriate age.Despite having 'more' now,the 50's keeps being brought up as a better time in their eyes.Why should they not say 'now' if they dont think it is better?

OllyK

My bold!!

The thing is, if you ask pretty much anybody, they all seem to think things were better in the past, they'll just all pick different years depending on their age and how their memory romanticies things. I'm not saying it's all roses, but I don't think it's as bad as people percieve.

I remember my childhood being a carefree time when I go off with friends and cycle all over the place. A few years before the Moors murders had been big news and during the Yorkshire Ripper was big news. I lived in Yorkshire, on the moors and there was very little crime, or incidents of drunkenness - but then if we were out at night we were in the woods or a field and not around where people were likely to be drunk.

Now, I live in a small town in Derbyshire, I rarely see drunks and walk through the town at night with little worry about anything happening to me. We have had the car scratched (see the other thread) but other than that things have been fine.

My experience of large towns and cities however is not quite so pleasent, but again I think that's long been the case to boot.

I'm not saying it is ALL perception, but it's certainly a hefty part of it.

Reality

Well Olly - I used to live in London when I was a kid and you could leave your doors unlocked and everything.

When you got home some **** would have nicked the lot .

OllyK

LOL

On numerous occasions I've left the scoob parked on the road at home overnight unlocked. Thought it had locked when it hadn't, or maybe while carrying keys and bags I accidently caught the zapper again, who knows. So far, nothing has happened to it, stereo left with removable face in place, road angel on the dash, still there in the morning