Bit of a Science Question/Ponder
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Originally Posted by scoobychick
Every time I look through my telescope at distant galaxies and planets the question of what is beyond the universe always pops up in my head and, without fail I always end up in a massive head-**** situation thinking about it all For me that is one of the attractions of astronomy, it really makes you think.
There is no substitute for the awe you feel when looking at objects such as The Andromeda Galaxy or Saturn. It's one thing seeing them in pictures but a completely different thing seeing them for real. It brings home the enormity of it all, not just space and the universe but our role in it. It makes you feel very small and very insignificant in the whole big scheme of things.
There is no substitute for the awe you feel when looking at objects such as The Andromeda Galaxy or Saturn. It's one thing seeing them in pictures but a completely different thing seeing them for real. It brings home the enormity of it all, not just space and the universe but our role in it. It makes you feel very small and very insignificant in the whole big scheme of things.
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Originally Posted by TonyG
Not necessarily possible to reach an 'edge' A sphere is finite, yet it has no edges, and if you travel in any direction along the surface, you'll end up back where you started. The surface (2 dimensions admittedly) is the analogy of our 3-dimensional universe. If you leave the surface, then in our reality, you're moving through another dimension other than the normal three (length, width, height).
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Originally Posted by wez_sti
Surely if the universe is infact spherical, then if travelling in a straight line long enough we would reach the side? Like if we were trapped in a giant ball, although round, if you travelled in one direction you'd eventually reach the edge?
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Originally Posted by TonyG
Um, the ball is an analogy. In the analogy, it's only the surface of the sphere that is our universe; we're two dimensional creatures stuck to the surface. Moving through the middle of the sphere would be like us moving through time.
Riiiiight, but we can move on 3 axis..??
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Originally Posted by TonyG
Not necessarily possible to reach an 'edge' A sphere is finite, yet it has no edges, and if you travel in any direction along the surface, you'll end up back where you started. The surface (2 dimensions admittedly) is the analogy of our 3-dimensional universe. If you leave the surface, then in our reality, you're moving through another dimension other than the normal three (length, width, height).
I imagined the universe to be an enclosed sphere with us on the inside . Therefore the notion of reaching the end of the universe completely plausible. However this is not possible according to the theory. Why is this if we are inside a bubble so to speak? I know astronomers have seen the edge of our universe some fifteen billion light years away and just seen a red mist. What is beyond this red mist??
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Originally Posted by TonyG
Um, the ball is an analogy. In the analogy, it's only the surface of the sphere that is our universe; we're two dimensional creatures stuck to the surface. Moving through the middle of the sphere would be like us moving through time.
So what is in the middle of the sphere??
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i think what he is suggesting is the we are within the surface that makes up the sphere, so no matter which way we move 'eventually' we will end up where we started...
although my small brain only see's this surface as 2 dimensions so i dont quite 'get' it....
although my small brain only see's this surface as 2 dimensions so i dont quite 'get' it....
#41
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Originally Posted by wez_sti
i think what he is suggesting is the we are within the surface that makes up the sphere, so no matter which way we move 'eventually' we will end up where we started...
although my small brain only see's this surface as 2 dimensions so i dont quite 'get' it....
although my small brain only see's this surface as 2 dimensions so i dont quite 'get' it....
Yes but what is in the middle? Surely because the universe is made up of matter therefore it is subject to the laws of physics. this would entail the middle of the sphere is subject to these same laws.
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I think for this theory to be possible the centre of the sphere would need to be truly empty, void of any matter at all, other wise the there would be a gravatational pull surely...?
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Originally Posted by Einstein RA
So what is in the middle of the sphere??
It's a bit like an onion, with each layer representing the whole universe at one moment in time.
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But surely, to reach the origin of the big bang, which everything is expanding from, you would just need to go in the opposite direction to what we are all travelling in now, not a 4th dimension..?
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Originally Posted by Einstein RA
I imagined the universe to be an enclosed sphere with us on the inside . Therefore the notion of reaching the end of the universe completely plausible. However this is not possible according to the theory. Why is this if we are inside a bubble so to speak? I know astronomers have seen the edge of our universe some fifteen billion light years away and just seen a red mist. What is beyond this red mist??
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Originally Posted by wez_sti
But surely, to reach the origin of the big bang, which everything is expanding from, you would just need to go in the opposite direction to what we are all travelling in now, not a 4th dimension..?
We see a 3 dimensional universe, but it's made of many more - we just can't see them, but we can imagine them.
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So all the matter and electro magntetic rays expanding from the big bang are moving out in an ever expanding ring shape with the light rays the furthest out and i assume the heavier dense matter towards the center of the ring...
But if you could still travell back in space (not time) to the source of the bang, what would be there?
And once you get past the light from the big bang could there not be another big bang somewhere out there also??
Could two expanding universes collide..?
But if you could still travell back in space (not time) to the source of the bang, what would be there?
And once you get past the light from the big bang could there not be another big bang somewhere out there also??
Could two expanding universes collide..?
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Originally Posted by wez_sti
So all the matter and electro magntetic rays expanding from the big bang are moving out in an ever expanding ring shape with the light rays the furthest out and i assume the heavier dense matter towards the center of the ring...
But if you could still travell back in space (not time) to the source of the bang, what would be there?
And once you get past the light from the big bang could there not be another big bang somewhere out there also??
Could do expanding universes collide..?
But if you could still travell back in space (not time) to the source of the bang, what would be there?
And once you get past the light from the big bang could there not be another big bang somewhere out there also??
Could do expanding universes collide..?
You can't travel to the centre of the Big Bang, it's wherever you are sitting now. And here. And 15 billion light years away. You can't get past the light from the Big Bang. If you got to the point 15 billion light years away (assume that you can do it instantaneously), you'd still look in all directions and see the same background glow 15 billion light years from where you are
Last bit - who knows? Just because we haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it can't. It would be interesting to watch though.
#49
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I think this is all a bit beyond my comprahention...
I'd of though if you could travel fast enough (admitidly stupidly fast) you would be able to overtake the light from the big bang, no?
are we not expanding away from the source of the bang?
I'd of though if you could travel fast enough (admitidly stupidly fast) you would be able to overtake the light from the big bang, no?
are we not expanding away from the source of the bang?
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What I find most interesting is that of all the numerical values associated with the Universe, such as our sun for instance, if its size was increased or decreased by as little as 0.1% I seem to remember, it would be impossible for us to have life on this planet. When you read into it a little more, you find a lot of numerical values like that. Such as the way matter is spread throughout the galaxy. If gravity was something like 0.000001% stronger or weaker there would either be a big 'clump' of matter that would be impossible to support life or it would be spread through the galaxy like soup, in which case again it would be impossible for life to have evolved.
This begs two questions for me;
1, were the values of the universe chosen by some superior being or race of beings? If so, where did they stand when they chose these values? (serious mind ****)
2, are there millions of different universes out there and do we just live in the one where the conditions are right?
Either way, its some serious thinking to be done, and I don't have the time, right now, got to mow my lawn
This begs two questions for me;
1, were the values of the universe chosen by some superior being or race of beings? If so, where did they stand when they chose these values? (serious mind ****)
2, are there millions of different universes out there and do we just live in the one where the conditions are right?
Either way, its some serious thinking to be done, and I don't have the time, right now, got to mow my lawn
#51
The big bang is when it all started though and the universe has expanded from that so you cannot look past the big bang 15billion years ago! I think the furthest they have looked back is 14.2billion years, still 750million years in front of the big bang.
The thing i cant get my head around is what are we expanding into? Are we going to keep on expanding or are we going to reach a limit (Like an elastic band) and come hurtling back into where the big bang originated
The thing i cant get my head around is what are we expanding into? Are we going to keep on expanding or are we going to reach a limit (Like an elastic band) and come hurtling back into where the big bang originated
Last edited by Mitchy260; 02 June 2006 at 01:19 PM.
#52
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Originally Posted by danwrx1980
What I find most interesting is that of all the numerical values associated with the Universe, such as our sun for instance, if its size was increased or decreased by as little as 0.1% I seem to remember, it would be impossible for us to have life on this planet. When you read into it a little more, you find a lot of numerical values like that. Such as the way matter is spread throughout the galaxy. If gravity was something like 0.000001% stronger or weaker there would either be a big 'clump' of matter that would be impossible to support life or it would be spread through the galaxy like soup, in which case again it would be impossible for life to have evolved.
This begs two questions for me;
1, were the values of the universe chosen by some superior being or race of beings? If so, where did they stand when they chose these values? (serious mind ****)
2, are there millions of different universes out there and do we just live in the one where the conditions are right?
Either way, its some serious thinking to be done, and I don't have the time, right now, got to mow my lawn
This begs two questions for me;
1, were the values of the universe chosen by some superior being or race of beings? If so, where did they stand when they chose these values? (serious mind ****)
2, are there millions of different universes out there and do we just live in the one where the conditions are right?
Either way, its some serious thinking to be done, and I don't have the time, right now, got to mow my lawn
definately no. 2. Thats that sorted for ya! Now go cut the grass!
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Originally Posted by wez_sti
I think this is all a bit beyond my comprahention...
I'd of though if you could travel fast enough (admitidly stupidly fast) you would be able to overtake the light from the big bang, no?
are we not expanding away from the source of the bang?
I'd of though if you could travel fast enough (admitidly stupidly fast) you would be able to overtake the light from the big bang, no?
are we not expanding away from the source of the bang?
We are expanding away from the origin of the Big Bang, but only in time. It's not like a normal explosion that you see in any "Arneee/Bruce Willis" film.
Last edited by TonyG; 02 June 2006 at 01:24 PM.
#54
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Originally Posted by TonyG
You can't outrun light unless you do something exotic (warp space, find a wormhole shortcut)
We are expanding away from the origin of the Big Bang, but only in time. It's not like a normal explosion that you see in any "Arneee/Bruce Willis" film.
Yeah i'm aware of the infinite force to accelerate an infinite mass theory, but was thinking outside of the box
as for the second part, you've just made my brain ache!
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Originally Posted by wez_sti
as for the second part, you've just made my brain ache!
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haha, na the thought of 'time' exanding
getting the simular 'hamster running round its wheel' feeling i got when reading Hawkins!
My brain finds it hard to cope with anything other than time being a constant straight line...
getting the simular 'hamster running round its wheel' feeling i got when reading Hawkins!
My brain finds it hard to cope with anything other than time being a constant straight line...
#58
Anyway our sun is going to end it for us on earth.
The sun will expand into a red giant and expand to 100 times the size it is now. It will eat up mercury and venus and be so close to earth that it will burn it to a crisp.
Human civilisation will not go on unless we can move to a new star and solar system.
Scary thoughts but its a good 5 billion years away yet! We'll blow ourselves up well before that anyway!
The sun will expand into a red giant and expand to 100 times the size it is now. It will eat up mercury and venus and be so close to earth that it will burn it to a crisp.
Human civilisation will not go on unless we can move to a new star and solar system.
Scary thoughts but its a good 5 billion years away yet! We'll blow ourselves up well before that anyway!
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reckon with the advance we have made in just the last few hundred years, a billion years should be long enough for to do pretty much what we like!
Although as you say, we'll no doubt of wiped ourselves out by then!
Although as you say, we'll no doubt of wiped ourselves out by then!
#60
Yes but we'd have to move our civilisation to a new star and solar system to go on! We could not remain in our solar system because our sun will die and burn itself out.
You'd have to be lucky enough that the planet was in the safe habitable range of the star, not too close but not too far!
Then how would we get there? Space travel in gigantic ships travelling to another star, even our closest stars at 4-5 light years away would be a mission to reach! Travelling at the speed of light in a space craft i think is impossible and it would still take 4-5yrs to get there. Travelling at normal space craft speed and your looking at hundreds/thousands of years to get to another solar system.
The earth will 1 day be a burnt lifeless rock floating in space, makes you think when you look at the bigger picture are we even important at all.
If we have not killed ourselves by then im sure an asteroid will.
You'd have to be lucky enough that the planet was in the safe habitable range of the star, not too close but not too far!
Then how would we get there? Space travel in gigantic ships travelling to another star, even our closest stars at 4-5 light years away would be a mission to reach! Travelling at the speed of light in a space craft i think is impossible and it would still take 4-5yrs to get there. Travelling at normal space craft speed and your looking at hundreds/thousands of years to get to another solar system.
The earth will 1 day be a burnt lifeless rock floating in space, makes you think when you look at the bigger picture are we even important at all.
If we have not killed ourselves by then im sure an asteroid will.