ADVICE! 3pts & £60 fine for "contraviening a double solid white line"!!
05 June 2006, 06:53 PM
#31
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to be honest mate you have no hope in hell of contesting it, you have already said to the copper '' yes i may have been slighty over it'' thats proof enough, hes gonna say you said that and what will u then reply?? ''no i didnt''?? who will they believe ? plus you could end up with a bigger fine if you take it to court! i was sitting at a red light, phone rang i picked it up and said ill call you back in 10 mintues, copper saw me and pulled me over and gave me a fixed penalty, same as what you have been given. he told me there and then that i have 28 days to appeal against it but the fine could rise to £1000 if i lost it. you have admitted breaking a traffic law mate really you just gotta swallow it. court costs etc all add up to alot of money and you wont win!
05 June 2006, 07:15 PM
#32
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![[Davey]'s Avatar](data:image/svg+xml;utf8,<svg xmlns='http://www.w3.org/2000/svg' viewBox='0 0 50 50'><circle class='avatar-circle-default' fill='%23806b84' cx='25px' cy='25px' r='20px'></circle><text class='avatar-text-default' x='49%' y='53%' fill='white' text-anchor='middle' alignment-baseline='middle'>[</text></svg>)
If there is one officer and its not a video car, contest it or atleast say you were avoiding something that was in the road...
If there are two coppers and/or its a video car you can try your luck with contesting it by saying there was debris or an animal on the road..
Basically if there is something blocking the lane or somethign that would be considered un-safe to drive over you have every right to cross the solid lines.
If there are two coppers and/or its a video car you can try your luck with contesting it by saying there was debris or an animal on the road..
Basically if there is something blocking the lane or somethign that would be considered un-safe to drive over you have every right to cross the solid lines.
05 June 2006, 07:16 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by kingofturds
Should have denied any wrong doing at the time.
05 June 2006, 07:42 PM
#34
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Some very worrying comments on this thread!
Some people seem to think as the officer was on their own this means something, unfortunately this is not the case. This rule only applies for speeding when there is no other means to corroborate the offence, i.e. no speedometer or mechanical device. I.e. the court can use the opinion of the 2 officers that the offence was committed. However as this is not a speeding offence then this does not apply.
As to the offence....
Regulation 26 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 state that you can cross the double white lines..
(a) to enable the vehicle to enter, from the side of the road on which it is proceeding, land or premises adjacent to the length of road on which the line is placed, or another road joining that road
(b) in order to pass a stationary vehicle
(c) owing to circumstances outside the control of the driver
(d) in order to avoid an accident
(e) in order to pass a road maintenance vehicle which is in use, is moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph, and is displaying to the rear the sign regulatory arrow sign (white arrow on blue) - traffic to proceed either left or right as indicated by sign or the sign for vehicles to stay right of vehicle involved with mobile roadworks (white arrow on blue, but mounted on yellow board with flashing amber lights)
(f) in order to pass a pedal cycle moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph
(g) in order to pass a horse that is being ridden or led at a speed not exceeding 10 mph
(h) for the purposes of complying with any direction of a constable in uniform or a traffic warden
c) is the only one thats a bit vague, and an example might be if its been snowing and you cant see the line.
If you really want to fight it its going to cost you £2k+ for the type of solicitor who can get you off it, but (s)he will have their work cut out unless the BiB has made a mistake in their statement.
Some people seem to think as the officer was on their own this means something, unfortunately this is not the case. This rule only applies for speeding when there is no other means to corroborate the offence, i.e. no speedometer or mechanical device. I.e. the court can use the opinion of the 2 officers that the offence was committed. However as this is not a speeding offence then this does not apply.
As to the offence....
Regulation 26 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 state that you can cross the double white lines..
(a) to enable the vehicle to enter, from the side of the road on which it is proceeding, land or premises adjacent to the length of road on which the line is placed, or another road joining that road
(b) in order to pass a stationary vehicle
(c) owing to circumstances outside the control of the driver
(d) in order to avoid an accident
(e) in order to pass a road maintenance vehicle which is in use, is moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph, and is displaying to the rear the sign regulatory arrow sign (white arrow on blue) - traffic to proceed either left or right as indicated by sign or the sign for vehicles to stay right of vehicle involved with mobile roadworks (white arrow on blue, but mounted on yellow board with flashing amber lights)
(f) in order to pass a pedal cycle moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph
(g) in order to pass a horse that is being ridden or led at a speed not exceeding 10 mph
(h) for the purposes of complying with any direction of a constable in uniform or a traffic warden
c) is the only one thats a bit vague, and an example might be if its been snowing and you cant see the line.
If you really want to fight it its going to cost you £2k+ for the type of solicitor who can get you off it, but (s)he will have their work cut out unless the BiB has made a mistake in their statement.
05 June 2006, 07:46 PM
#35
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I got 3 points and fined £60 some years back for crossing a solid white line whilst overtaking cars on my motorbike. Got pulled over a few hundred yards later by a copper on a bike
I was in the wrong, paid the fine, and thats that. Not much I could do about it
Neil
I was in the wrong, paid the fine, and thats that. Not much I could do about it
Neil
05 June 2006, 08:20 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by billythekid
Some very worrying comments on this thread!
Some people seem to think as the officer was on their own this means something, unfortunately this is not the case. This rule only applies for speeding when there is no other means to corroborate the offence, i.e. no speedometer or mechanical device. I.e. the court can use the opinion of the 2 officers that the offence was committed. However as this is not a speeding offence then this does not apply.
As to the offence....
Regulation 26 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 state that you can cross the double white lines..
(a) to enable the vehicle to enter, from the side of the road on which it is proceeding, land or premises adjacent to the length of road on which the line is placed, or another road joining that road
(b) in order to pass a stationary vehicle
(c) owing to circumstances outside the control of the driver
(d) in order to avoid an accident
(e) in order to pass a road maintenance vehicle which is in use, is moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph, and is displaying to the rear the sign regulatory arrow sign (white arrow on blue) - traffic to proceed either left or right as indicated by sign or the sign for vehicles to stay right of vehicle involved with mobile roadworks (white arrow on blue, but mounted on yellow board with flashing amber lights)
(f) in order to pass a pedal cycle moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph
(g) in order to pass a horse that is being ridden or led at a speed not exceeding 10 mph
(h) for the purposes of complying with any direction of a constable in uniform or a traffic warden
c) is the only one thats a bit vague, and an example might be if its been snowing and you cant see the line.
If you really want to fight it its going to cost you £2k+ for the type of solicitor who can get you off it, but (s)he will have their work cut out unless the BiB has made a mistake in their statement.
Some people seem to think as the officer was on their own this means something, unfortunately this is not the case. This rule only applies for speeding when there is no other means to corroborate the offence, i.e. no speedometer or mechanical device. I.e. the court can use the opinion of the 2 officers that the offence was committed. However as this is not a speeding offence then this does not apply.
As to the offence....
Regulation 26 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 state that you can cross the double white lines..
(a) to enable the vehicle to enter, from the side of the road on which it is proceeding, land or premises adjacent to the length of road on which the line is placed, or another road joining that road
(b) in order to pass a stationary vehicle
(c) owing to circumstances outside the control of the driver
(d) in order to avoid an accident
(e) in order to pass a road maintenance vehicle which is in use, is moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph, and is displaying to the rear the sign regulatory arrow sign (white arrow on blue) - traffic to proceed either left or right as indicated by sign or the sign for vehicles to stay right of vehicle involved with mobile roadworks (white arrow on blue, but mounted on yellow board with flashing amber lights)
(f) in order to pass a pedal cycle moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph
(g) in order to pass a horse that is being ridden or led at a speed not exceeding 10 mph
(h) for the purposes of complying with any direction of a constable in uniform or a traffic warden
c) is the only one thats a bit vague, and an example might be if its been snowing and you cant see the line.
If you really want to fight it its going to cost you £2k+ for the type of solicitor who can get you off it, but (s)he will have their work cut out unless the BiB has made a mistake in their statement.
Steve
05 June 2006, 08:38 PM
#38
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Scoobie Ecosse, as presume from your profile you are from scotland?
The guidelines in Scotland are different to england and wales, you do not need two officers in england and wales to prove an offence
The guidelines in Scotland are different to england and wales, you do not need two officers in england and wales to prove an offence
05 June 2006, 08:48 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by r5 gtt
yea if there's only one copper i'm sure they can't do nothing.
and my mate was doing an advanced driving course with the police and they told him its fine to use the whole road on corners when safe.
and my mate was doing an advanced driving course with the police and they told him its fine to use the whole road on corners when safe.
Crossing double white lines or where the solid line is on your side is a no no and most definitely not taught!
If you cross double whites when tested you will fail the course.
05 June 2006, 09:45 PM
#41
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In view of the presence of solid white lines which appear to be associated with a series of bends and that you appear to have asserted that you were travelling at 60mph and that it was dark can I ask if you could stop on your own side of the road within the distance you could see to be clear?
Even if you suspect you could stop on your own side of the road in the distance you could see to be clear have you considered the possibility that, in view of the fact that it was necessary to use the opposite carriageway to maintain smooth progress and traction, if heavy braking were necessary the dynamics of the situation may have been such as to cause a skid or loss of control?
I agree that a £60 fine and putting points on your licence may not have been the best way to deal with the situation and my view is that some driving tuition may have been more useful. Unfortunately under the current methods of traffic policing generating revenue comes before solving the problem in terms of priorities.
Even if you suspect you could stop on your own side of the road in the distance you could see to be clear have you considered the possibility that, in view of the fact that it was necessary to use the opposite carriageway to maintain smooth progress and traction, if heavy braking were necessary the dynamics of the situation may have been such as to cause a skid or loss of control?
I agree that a £60 fine and putting points on your licence may not have been the best way to deal with the situation and my view is that some driving tuition may have been more useful. Unfortunately under the current methods of traffic policing generating revenue comes before solving the problem in terms of priorities.
06 June 2006, 09:09 AM
#42
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Ok thanks for your help guys, and espacially thanks to Billythekid who, as stated above has given the most sensible reply. If a single copper can convict you then i wont bother. I would like to know if i can go on a driving course or something instead of the points. Its not the fine that bother me, its the bloody points!
Thanks for your help tho guys!
Thanks for your help tho guys!
06 June 2006, 10:09 AM
#43
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you could always go back one night, get a dead animal and take a picture with a camera phone of said animal lying in the road and say you swerved to avoid it. This of couse though could lead you to a charge of perverting the course of justice. Of course I would say dont do this as it is illegal.
You can ask about a course, however I think they only offer courses to drink drivers. However if you take an advance driving course yourself, some insurance companies offer discounts if you have this qualification which may offset the extra points you have.
You can ask about a course, however I think they only offer courses to drink drivers. However if you take an advance driving course yourself, some insurance companies offer discounts if you have this qualification which may offset the extra points you have.
06 June 2006, 11:25 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by r5 gtt
yea if there's only one copper i'm sure they can't do nothing.
and my mate was doing an advanced driving course with the police and they told him its fine to use the whole road on corners when safe.
and my mate was doing an advanced driving course with the police and they told him its fine to use the whole road on corners when safe.
You are also right on the corner thing. I remember my driving instuctor advising me to use all of the corner when safe to do so. Although if its solid white lines, then you have done wrong.
Last edited by CyprusScooby; 06 June 2006 at 12:08 PM.
06 June 2006, 11:51 AM
#45
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Cyprusscooby, im interested in your thought if your a traffic copper? I know i have done wrong but can i fight it and have i got much chance of winning? What steps would you take coming from behind the scenes so to speak if you were off duty?
06 June 2006, 12:03 PM
#47
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I think you have got a good chance of getting off with it. Even if you have admitted what you have done. Anything said before Caution is inadmissable as evidence.
I would say that if you got a lawyer involved, then you'll definately get off with it. But that can be costly.
At the end of the day though, if you've done wrong, you've done wrong.
I would say that if you got a lawyer involved, then you'll definately get off with it. But that can be costly.
At the end of the day though, if you've done wrong, you've done wrong.
06 June 2006, 12:06 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by h4rry
Cyprusscooby, im interested in your thought if your a traffic copper? I know i have done wrong but can i fight it and have i got much chance of winning? What steps would you take coming from behind the scenes so to speak if you were off duty?
DCI Gene Hunt
06 June 2006, 12:06 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by h4rry
Cyprusscooby, im interested in your thought if your a traffic copper? I know i have done wrong but can i fight it and have i got much chance of winning? What steps would you take coming from behind the scenes so to speak if you were off duty?
06 June 2006, 12:08 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by r5 gtt
..... my mate was doing an advanced driving course with the police and they told him its fine to use the whole road on corners when safe.
Of course using the whole road when there aren't solid lines is fine, when safe.
06 June 2006, 01:56 PM
#51
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scoobie eccosse
Apart from the fact you are illiterate (and btw the French spelling of the country you live in is ecosse) referring to the police as "pigs" on here reduces the credibility of anything you have to say to zero, and does H4rry no favours.
H4rry
I got my first points in 27 years of driving last year for the same offence. I allegedly overtook two policemen on their way to work in their private vehicle (they couldn't stop me in a private vehicle, so reported it when they got to work) over double whites in a 40 limit. I had no genuine recollection of the alleged offence whatsoever and so it was my word against theirs. I think I may have overtaken them, but not at that point and not on double whites. I think I just peed them off because I was in a flashy car with a noisy exhaust and personal plate and I offended them. We'll never know.
Despite the fact that I subsequently got the officers to (against their wishes) sketch out a diagram of the cars and their positions that could be used in evidence and shown it would have been impossible to carry out the offence there (I would have had to pull out, overtake and pull in again in the space of 39 metres - I measured and took photos) I was advised by my solicitor not to fight it or thery would change the charge to something altogether more serious like careless or dangerous driving. You pays your money you takes your choice, I reluctantly took the rap and got 3 points and a fine.
On the pure offence of crossing the lines, the law is quite clear on this and if you crossed them there will be no defence.
HOWEVER, since this is an endorsible offence the road markings have to be as prescribed by law for the offence to be actionable. If the double white line system is incorrectly laid out or the markings are worn more than the maintenance guidelines then the system is not legal and thus you cannot be prosecuted for it.
I presume the offence was alleged to be carried out under Section 36 (1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988?
For the double white line system to be proven to be legal it has to conform to Sections 26, 31 or 48 (and possibly others) of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. The legal requirements for the markings of the double white line system can be found in Chapter 5 of the Traffic Signs Manual 2003.
To prove the system has not been maintained properly (i.e. worn double white lines, deflection arrows etc) you need to look in the Design manual for Roads and Bridges, Volume 8 - Traffic signs and lighting, Section 2, Traffic Signs and Road Markings, Part 2, TD 26/04, "Inspection and maintenance of road markings and road studs on motorways and all purpose trunk roads" which shows photographic assessment scoring photos to gauge the degree of wear of the road markings.
If the double white line system has not been constructed properly (deflection arrows too small, in the wrong place etc) or if it is worn beyond the maintenance guidelines, it cannot be enforced.
Footnote and disclaimer
I went through all the above procedure and concluded from matching photographic evidence to the design manual that the double white line system I was allegedly caught on was worn beyond the maintenance guidelines, and wanted to fight it on a technicality. My solicitor disagreed. I then reluctantly pleaded guilty. Less than 10 days after being convicted the Highways dept contractors repainted the double white line system there. Coincidence? Maybe, but I probably would have got the case dropped if I had ignored my solicitor and gone with my gut feeling.
The moral of this is that even if the system appears not to be legal, do not assume the outcome.
This information whilst given freely should be acted upon of your own free will and I accept no responsibility for any choice of action you may take!
Apart from the fact you are illiterate (and btw the French spelling of the country you live in is ecosse) referring to the police as "pigs" on here reduces the credibility of anything you have to say to zero, and does H4rry no favours.
H4rry
I got my first points in 27 years of driving last year for the same offence. I allegedly overtook two policemen on their way to work in their private vehicle (they couldn't stop me in a private vehicle, so reported it when they got to work) over double whites in a 40 limit. I had no genuine recollection of the alleged offence whatsoever and so it was my word against theirs. I think I may have overtaken them, but not at that point and not on double whites. I think I just peed them off because I was in a flashy car with a noisy exhaust and personal plate and I offended them. We'll never know.
Despite the fact that I subsequently got the officers to (against their wishes) sketch out a diagram of the cars and their positions that could be used in evidence and shown it would have been impossible to carry out the offence there (I would have had to pull out, overtake and pull in again in the space of 39 metres - I measured and took photos) I was advised by my solicitor not to fight it or thery would change the charge to something altogether more serious like careless or dangerous driving. You pays your money you takes your choice, I reluctantly took the rap and got 3 points and a fine.
On the pure offence of crossing the lines, the law is quite clear on this and if you crossed them there will be no defence.
HOWEVER, since this is an endorsible offence the road markings have to be as prescribed by law for the offence to be actionable. If the double white line system is incorrectly laid out or the markings are worn more than the maintenance guidelines then the system is not legal and thus you cannot be prosecuted for it.
I presume the offence was alleged to be carried out under Section 36 (1) of the Road Traffic Act 1988?
For the double white line system to be proven to be legal it has to conform to Sections 26, 31 or 48 (and possibly others) of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002. The legal requirements for the markings of the double white line system can be found in Chapter 5 of the Traffic Signs Manual 2003.
To prove the system has not been maintained properly (i.e. worn double white lines, deflection arrows etc) you need to look in the Design manual for Roads and Bridges, Volume 8 - Traffic signs and lighting, Section 2, Traffic Signs and Road Markings, Part 2, TD 26/04, "Inspection and maintenance of road markings and road studs on motorways and all purpose trunk roads" which shows photographic assessment scoring photos to gauge the degree of wear of the road markings.
If the double white line system has not been constructed properly (deflection arrows too small, in the wrong place etc) or if it is worn beyond the maintenance guidelines, it cannot be enforced.
Footnote and disclaimer
I went through all the above procedure and concluded from matching photographic evidence to the design manual that the double white line system I was allegedly caught on was worn beyond the maintenance guidelines, and wanted to fight it on a technicality. My solicitor disagreed. I then reluctantly pleaded guilty. Less than 10 days after being convicted the Highways dept contractors repainted the double white line system there. Coincidence? Maybe, but I probably would have got the case dropped if I had ignored my solicitor and gone with my gut feeling.
The moral of this is that even if the system appears not to be legal, do not assume the outcome.
This information whilst given freely should be acted upon of your own free will and I accept no responsibility for any choice of action you may take!
Last edited by Dave T-S; 06 June 2006 at 02:09 PM.
10 June 2006, 06:03 PM
#52
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who the hell are u? what gives u the right to slag me off? ur quite the big man aint u. do u think ur ****in god u get a grip people like u can only say what u want on sites like this cos ur 2 affaid to speak out any where else. when u no me then u can slag me ok now go **** urself ****
10 June 2006, 06:42 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by billythekid
Regulation 26 of The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 state that you can cross the double white lines..
(e) in order to pass a road maintenance vehicle which is in use, is moving at a speed not exceeding 10 mph, and is displaying to the rear the sign regulatory arrow sign (white arrow on blue)
10 June 2006, 07:12 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by Carl2
I wish more people would read their highway code (rule 108 states the above). I drive one of these vehicles and the amount of time people sit behind me on straight bits of road (double white lined) and refuse to over take is realy annoying. I get accused of causing the jam when it's the morons behind that don't know their highway code.
10 June 2006, 07:58 PM
#55
Originally Posted by LiamWR1(2)
Pay the fine... you will get nowhere contesting this one
You have rights...and him being by him self is just your word against his..and it will not stand for ****!
Though ofcourse admiting it may cause a problem, but at the end of the day...it is still his word against yours..you could also try dening it..still..
10 June 2006, 08:20 PM
#56
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Originally Posted by GazTheHat
Seems like a tough break to me. I always thought you could only get pulled over if there was 2+. 
Or is that an old wives tale?
Or is that an old wives tale?
10 June 2006, 08:22 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by scoobie_eccosse
if theres only onecopper they can only give a warning as they need another for evidence etc
10 June 2006, 08:54 PM
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