GEMs Advice required
16 June 2006, 11:27 AM
#31
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Indeed 
Nice guy but its detting its t*ts off under full load!
was only making 1.36bar on the rollers, on the road its hitting 1.56 and knock is getting up to 30 (when it first did it, it reached 59
)
Nice guy but its detting its t*ts off under full load!
was only making 1.36bar on the rollers, on the road its hitting 1.56 and knock is getting up to 30 (when it first did it, it reached 59
)
25 June 2006, 08:35 PM
#32
I'm getting a GEMS fitted shortly and i'm a bit concerned about some of what i'm reading here.Poor fuel consumption-i thought GEMS could use a graduated fuel map[JAP MAG improved the fuel return of their project wagon with GEMS fitted] also the coldstart/idling issues-is this the GEMS or bad mapping.My 99 typeR now has a fmic/induction kit fitted which now seems to disagree with the MAF which is why i chose GEMS ,being MAP based, over HYDRA [very new little feedback] APEXI [thought it was MAF based and would need to add boost control] Is the GEMS a good choice if properly mapped or is my hard earned better spent elsewhere.would appreciate your thoughts guys.
25 June 2006, 09:26 PM
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Got a GEMS on my bugeye STi. Yes I think the mpg has dropped slightly probably due to the smile on my face when I put the boot down (most of the time). When starting keep your foot well away from the throttle as a while back I killed the battery as I had flooded it (due to red mist as I was going to be late for work). IMO GEMS has it's negative sides but has a lot of positives just like everything else in life.
27 June 2006, 08:15 PM
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Jeff,
Lets look at the facts here for a minute...
Your car came in with faulty AFM which I fixed at cost.
Car was run on existing map and made 290 BHP.
Car was re-mapped and made 320BHP.
However I pointed out to you that, due to ther being no rubber seal between your bonnet scoop and modified WRX intercooler, I was concerned about charge temps and the possibility of det.
I was quite clear that I felt that 320BHP on a VF28 with TMIC could be bettered with charge temp ign control.I also pointed out that with a FMIC the APEXI would do a good job for the money.
If you are unhappy with the job I did for you then just give me a call and I'm sure we can either rectify or re-imburse....
Simon,
1.The latest SUB85 software (and earlier SUB99) does have closed loop boost control and is not just "duty cycle" dependent.
2.Even without jacked open throttle the V5 Air bypass valve with correct retard and fuel cut will reduce the overrun vaccuum by upt to 0.4 bar - thus a degree of ALS is achieved and it is not just "pops and bangs".
3.SUB85 has "in gear" boost table modifiers.Other in gear mods are shift light, fuelling and ignition trim.
4.Your comments re: rally car preferences is an interesting debate.I agree there is always an element of "resistance to change", but you could say that is the same situation with the Apexi for the road market! However you have to accept that the GEMS with its advanced ALS, launch, individual cylinder trims for fuel and ign is a competition based system.There is also the issue of spark resolution on the early APEXI units.......The bottom line is that we run our N12 Subarus on GEMS because we simply get the best results out of this ECU for a sensible cost.If something else came along that would give us an edge we would surely use it.To this end we have developed our own ECU for the early cars....I think also that you do some of the leading UK rally teams a disservice if you think that they purchase GEMS systems purely on the basis of tradition.These guys are spending upwards of £150K a year to be competitive in GP N and I can assure you that they expect results.That is why we invested in a dyno so we can demonstrate what works and what is just bull****.We have back to back tested GEMS, MOTEC, APEXI and our own ECU and the results are conclusive.
I make no apologies for pointing out that on last weekends Donegal international rally the top 5 GP N EVO 9's were on GEMS.I'm too modest to point out who mapped them.
Steve
Lets look at the facts here for a minute...
Your car came in with faulty AFM which I fixed at cost.
Car was run on existing map and made 290 BHP.
Car was re-mapped and made 320BHP.
However I pointed out to you that, due to ther being no rubber seal between your bonnet scoop and modified WRX intercooler, I was concerned about charge temps and the possibility of det.
I was quite clear that I felt that 320BHP on a VF28 with TMIC could be bettered with charge temp ign control.I also pointed out that with a FMIC the APEXI would do a good job for the money.
If you are unhappy with the job I did for you then just give me a call and I'm sure we can either rectify or re-imburse....
Simon,
1.The latest SUB85 software (and earlier SUB99) does have closed loop boost control and is not just "duty cycle" dependent.
2.Even without jacked open throttle the V5 Air bypass valve with correct retard and fuel cut will reduce the overrun vaccuum by upt to 0.4 bar - thus a degree of ALS is achieved and it is not just "pops and bangs".
3.SUB85 has "in gear" boost table modifiers.Other in gear mods are shift light, fuelling and ignition trim.
4.Your comments re: rally car preferences is an interesting debate.I agree there is always an element of "resistance to change", but you could say that is the same situation with the Apexi for the road market! However you have to accept that the GEMS with its advanced ALS, launch, individual cylinder trims for fuel and ign is a competition based system.There is also the issue of spark resolution on the early APEXI units.......The bottom line is that we run our N12 Subarus on GEMS because we simply get the best results out of this ECU for a sensible cost.If something else came along that would give us an edge we would surely use it.To this end we have developed our own ECU for the early cars....I think also that you do some of the leading UK rally teams a disservice if you think that they purchase GEMS systems purely on the basis of tradition.These guys are spending upwards of £150K a year to be competitive in GP N and I can assure you that they expect results.That is why we invested in a dyno so we can demonstrate what works and what is just bull****.We have back to back tested GEMS, MOTEC, APEXI and our own ECU and the results are conclusive.
I make no apologies for pointing out that on last weekends Donegal international rally the top 5 GP N EVO 9's were on GEMS.I'm too modest to point out who mapped them.
Steve
27 June 2006, 09:15 PM
#36
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Steve, Im not knocking you at all and Im keen to point out I had a VERY good morning with you on the rollers. I found the whole experience very informative and Id like to think I've certainly learnt some more tech stuff from you. I will be coming back to see you at some point for another session on the rollers 
With regards to going to see AndrewC to do a little tweaking to the map you did based on Andyf's original map, please bear in mind that I've know Andrew for a few years and he's just helping me out (and doesnt charge me £200 per session).
If you look at the main point of this post, I was asking about my options on a cheap Gems compared to options on my Apexi. I certainly didnt post up complaining about you or the service I received. The only time (much later in the thread) when nearly promted, all I said was its detting its t*ts off... which it is. So please dont think I've come on here to have a go... cos I havent
With regards to the mapping, you suggested remove a couple of degrees from rows 15, 16 & 17. Its been suggested that the boost duty cycle might benefit from been pinned back a little, hence why Andrew has offered to have a look on my way home from work one night. Although thats not going to happen for a few weeks as Ive since broken my left hand and now cant drive cos of the plaster
Anyway, hope thats cleared it up
PS: I took your advice and got the seal on the intercooler sorted out straight away:
With regards to going to see AndrewC to do a little tweaking to the map you did based on Andyf's original map, please bear in mind that I've know Andrew for a few years and he's just helping me out (and doesnt charge me £200 per session).
If you look at the main point of this post, I was asking about my options on a cheap Gems compared to options on my Apexi. I certainly didnt post up complaining about you or the service I received. The only time (much later in the thread) when nearly promted, all I said was its detting its t*ts off... which it is. So please dont think I've come on here to have a go... cos I havent
With regards to the mapping, you suggested remove a couple of degrees from rows 15, 16 & 17. Its been suggested that the boost duty cycle might benefit from been pinned back a little, hence why Andrew has offered to have a look on my way home from work one night. Although thats not going to happen for a few weeks as Ive since broken my left hand and now cant drive cos of the plaster
Anyway, hope thats cleared it up
PS: I took your advice and got the seal on the intercooler sorted out straight away:
Last edited by Jay_bee; 27 June 2006 at 10:03 PM.
27 June 2006, 09:37 PM
#37
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GEMS
I would go with the gems i used this ecu on my car and after a bit of messing around with the settings it started and run fine from cold. a lot of pople run the apexi and find them fine give the gems a shot if it,s no good go back to a apexi you can get them from peanuts nowadays . my 96 wagon did 400bhp and 370lbft of torque on a gems
it had a
front mount
td06 20g
740cc injectors
harvey ported headers
sx fuel reg
wlbro pump
rcms 3" front pipe
revolution center and rear
it was bloody fast car
cheers paul
it had a
front mount
td06 20g
740cc injectors
harvey ported headers
sx fuel reg
wlbro pump
rcms 3" front pipe
revolution center and rear
it was bloody fast car
cheers paul
27 June 2006, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by steve rally
Simon,
1.The latest SUB85 software (and earlier SUB99) does have closed loop boost control and is not just "duty cycle" dependent.
2.Even without jacked open throttle the V5 Air bypass valve with correct retard and fuel cut will reduce the overrun vaccuum by upt to 0.4 bar - thus a degree of ALS is achieved and it is not just "pops and bangs".
3.SUB85 has "in gear" boost table modifiers.Other in gear mods are shift light, fuelling and ignition trim.
4.Your comments re: rally car preferences is an interesting debate.I agree there is always an element of "resistance to change", but you could say that is the same situation with the Apexi for the road market! However you have to accept that the GEMS with its advanced ALS, launch, individual cylinder trims for fuel and ign is a competition based system.There is also the issue of spark resolution on the early APEXI units.......The bottom line is that we run our N12 Subarus on GEMS because we simply get the best results out of this ECU for a sensible cost.If something else came along that would give us an edge we would surely use it.To this end we have developed our own ECU for the early cars....I think also that you do some of the leading UK rally teams a disservice if you think that they purchase GEMS systems purely on the basis of tradition.These guys are spending upwards of £150K a year to be competitive in GP N and I can assure you that they expect results.That is why we invested in a dyno so we can demonstrate what works and what is just bull****.We have back to back tested GEMS, MOTEC, APEXI and our own ECU and the results are conclusive.
I make no apologies for pointing out that on last weekends Donegal international rally the top 5 GP N EVO 9's were on GEMS.I'm too modest to point out who mapped them.
Steve
1.The latest SUB85 software (and earlier SUB99) does have closed loop boost control and is not just "duty cycle" dependent.
2.Even without jacked open throttle the V5 Air bypass valve with correct retard and fuel cut will reduce the overrun vaccuum by upt to 0.4 bar - thus a degree of ALS is achieved and it is not just "pops and bangs".
3.SUB85 has "in gear" boost table modifiers.Other in gear mods are shift light, fuelling and ignition trim.
4.Your comments re: rally car preferences is an interesting debate.I agree there is always an element of "resistance to change", but you could say that is the same situation with the Apexi for the road market! However you have to accept that the GEMS with its advanced ALS, launch, individual cylinder trims for fuel and ign is a competition based system.There is also the issue of spark resolution on the early APEXI units.......The bottom line is that we run our N12 Subarus on GEMS because we simply get the best results out of this ECU for a sensible cost.If something else came along that would give us an edge we would surely use it.To this end we have developed our own ECU for the early cars....I think also that you do some of the leading UK rally teams a disservice if you think that they purchase GEMS systems purely on the basis of tradition.These guys are spending upwards of £150K a year to be competitive in GP N and I can assure you that they expect results.That is why we invested in a dyno so we can demonstrate what works and what is just bull****.We have back to back tested GEMS, MOTEC, APEXI and our own ECU and the results are conclusive.
I make no apologies for pointing out that on last weekends Donegal international rally the top 5 GP N EVO 9's were on GEMS.I'm too modest to point out who mapped them.
Steve
2. V5.. so what about all the V1~4 with pops and bangs only then?
3. again can this software be loaded into the older ecus?
4. I think there is opinon on both rally use, road use and rolling road mapping and road mapping, each have good and each have bad points etc..
I am not intending creating an argument with you. I don't think Apexi is appropriate for Rallying necessarily. I also don't feel the reference to resistance to change from Apexi for road to something else when GEMs has been around for longer and been used and is not or has never been the flavour of the month.. unlike in Rallying were it seems to do very well.
Out of interest what other ecus are used?
Simon
27 June 2006, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by steve rally
Simon,
As Diana Ross once sang "I'm still waiting".
Steve
As Diana Ross once sang "I'm still waiting".
Steve
Simon
28 June 2006, 07:37 AM
#41
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Simon,
Latest SUB85 software is available for all model years - the software is now common for Subaru's , Mitsis etc.However the old boards cannot be upgraded.I personally though am prepared to do an exchange old for new.Note though that the boost control on the "old" boards was 3d closed loop with RPM/throttle based map.SUB96/99/2k all have individual cylinder fuelling and ignition.The main additions on SUB85 (new) is the "in gear" modifier tables and the use of faster processor.
With regards to pops and bangs I'm not quite sure what you are implying.If the customer wants pops and bangs then we can set it up just to do that and point out that it is just that and not "proper ALS".However if we have a rally car - and there are a considerable amount on early boards - then all the tables/maps are available to give a degree of vaccuum reduction on overrun without "jacked open throttle" as I explained in the previous post.For "full on ALS" then the throttle is jacked and we can get whatever boost you and your turbo can take.....If you need help on setting these parameters I would be happy to oblige.
With regard to which ECU is more appropriate I like to think that we could be objective here even though you and I have vested interests in different products. My stance is that for competition use you need the features of a GEMS / Motec /Pectel etc.In rallying circles if we just take GPN Subarus and EVOs then you would say its GEMS, Motec with the occasional Pectel, Autronic, Omex.Motec was the preferred choice 5-6 years ago, but now, thanks to GEMS and myself developing the product and improving "on event support" GEMS is the clear leader in terms of choice og top teams.
I don't therefore think this is a historical issue - we cut into Motecs market by dint of a good product, good support, good results (power and wins) and hard work!
When it comes to the road market I accept that the price/feature balance is in favour of Apexi and am quite prepared to live with this.That is why we have developed our own 32 Bit ECU for the MY94 -MY98 cars -(£995 +VAT installed and R/R mapped with ALS as an option....)
The issue I have with you, Simon, is that I can do this without resorting to rubbishing the opposition.You have to admit that if you go back and read the posts (particularly #28 -#31) then you can possibly see why I get annoyed.It's sometimes just too easy to make derogatory remarks which can affect someones sole source of income (unlike you I guess) and then be apologetic afterwards once the damage has been done.
The offer still stands...If you are out mapping GEMS and have technical issues then you can always call me on 07836 635001 and we can work together to resolve them.
Steve
Latest SUB85 software is available for all model years - the software is now common for Subaru's , Mitsis etc.However the old boards cannot be upgraded.I personally though am prepared to do an exchange old for new.Note though that the boost control on the "old" boards was 3d closed loop with RPM/throttle based map.SUB96/99/2k all have individual cylinder fuelling and ignition.The main additions on SUB85 (new) is the "in gear" modifier tables and the use of faster processor.
With regards to pops and bangs I'm not quite sure what you are implying.If the customer wants pops and bangs then we can set it up just to do that and point out that it is just that and not "proper ALS".However if we have a rally car - and there are a considerable amount on early boards - then all the tables/maps are available to give a degree of vaccuum reduction on overrun without "jacked open throttle" as I explained in the previous post.For "full on ALS" then the throttle is jacked and we can get whatever boost you and your turbo can take.....If you need help on setting these parameters I would be happy to oblige.
With regard to which ECU is more appropriate I like to think that we could be objective here even though you and I have vested interests in different products. My stance is that for competition use you need the features of a GEMS / Motec /Pectel etc.In rallying circles if we just take GPN Subarus and EVOs then you would say its GEMS, Motec with the occasional Pectel, Autronic, Omex.Motec was the preferred choice 5-6 years ago, but now, thanks to GEMS and myself developing the product and improving "on event support" GEMS is the clear leader in terms of choice og top teams.
I don't therefore think this is a historical issue - we cut into Motecs market by dint of a good product, good support, good results (power and wins) and hard work!
When it comes to the road market I accept that the price/feature balance is in favour of Apexi and am quite prepared to live with this.That is why we have developed our own 32 Bit ECU for the MY94 -MY98 cars -(£995 +VAT installed and R/R mapped with ALS as an option....)
The issue I have with you, Simon, is that I can do this without resorting to rubbishing the opposition.You have to admit that if you go back and read the posts (particularly #28 -#31) then you can possibly see why I get annoyed.It's sometimes just too easy to make derogatory remarks which can affect someones sole source of income (unlike you I guess) and then be apologetic afterwards once the damage has been done.
The offer still stands...If you are out mapping GEMS and have technical issues then you can always call me on 07836 635001 and we can work together to resolve them.
Steve
28 June 2006, 09:39 AM
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Thank you for you email Steve, I am not sure however why I would need to ring you before making posts about GEMS. The product and also your mapping just like everyone elses and ever other type of ecu should speak for themselves and we are here on an open and within reason free to speak forum, I have as ever posted my opinion nothing else.
I find it most condescending with your offer to "help".. but then perhaps likewise if you have a problem now you have started mapping A'PEXI feel free to contact me. I won't however start quoting special prices I have come up with to try and take GEMS business, or to advertise in this thread.
I fail to see how you making a living from this other than you obviously being understandably sensitive on the subject should influence how I or anyone else talks of a product or a service. They should speak for themselves.
Or perhaps because you earn a living mapping GEMS we should only say positive things about it because it might effect your income?
I am truely sorry if the posts previously annoyed you, I suspect hardly anyone knew who mapped it etc.. until you posted. Re-reading them you are correct I can see that I should perhaps have been more selective with my wording, for which I appologise, not that you will appreciate that as you claim the damage has already been done apparently.
I don't agree with other stuff you have said but fail to see how thrashing that out here will be worth while.
Simon
I find it most condescending with your offer to "help".. but then perhaps likewise if you have a problem now you have started mapping A'PEXI feel free to contact me. I won't however start quoting special prices I have come up with to try and take GEMS business, or to advertise in this thread.
I fail to see how you making a living from this other than you obviously being understandably sensitive on the subject should influence how I or anyone else talks of a product or a service. They should speak for themselves.
Or perhaps because you earn a living mapping GEMS we should only say positive things about it because it might effect your income?
I am truely sorry if the posts previously annoyed you, I suspect hardly anyone knew who mapped it etc.. until you posted. Re-reading them you are correct I can see that I should perhaps have been more selective with my wording, for which I appologise, not that you will appreciate that as you claim the damage has already been done apparently.
I don't agree with other stuff you have said but fail to see how thrashing that out here will be worth while.
Simon
28 June 2006, 10:06 AM
#43
Back to the original post.
I have GEMS on my car, only 2 things I can fault it for neither of which are good reasons.
1. It's expensive (worth in imo)
2. you have to wait 10 secs for the fuel pump to prime before starting every time or it has a bit of a fit
Boost control - 100% summer or winter
Starting - 100% if you let the fuel pump prime 1st
Idle - again spot on, have a 4kg flywheel now and was mapped with std one
Economy - better than with the std ecu, regularly get 300miles+ to a tank even with 20G fmic etc etc
Anti-lag gives a noticeable vacuum reduction and much more so noticable pick up between gears.
No cutting of the loom, MY99 though.
Installed for 2 1/2 years now and I'm very happy with it.
Dave
I have GEMS on my car, only 2 things I can fault it for neither of which are good reasons.
1. It's expensive (worth in imo)
2. you have to wait 10 secs for the fuel pump to prime before starting every time or it has a bit of a fit
Boost control - 100% summer or winter
Starting - 100% if you let the fuel pump prime 1st
Idle - again spot on, have a 4kg flywheel now and was mapped with std one
Economy - better than with the std ecu, regularly get 300miles+ to a tank even with 20G fmic etc etc
Anti-lag gives a noticeable vacuum reduction and much more so noticable pick up between gears.
No cutting of the loom, MY99 though.
Installed for 2 1/2 years now and I'm very happy with it.
Dave
28 June 2006, 11:51 AM
#44
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I originally posted this a couple of weeks ago and will be sticking with what I've got.
This is based solely on:
What is the most cost effective way to achieve my goals taking into account advice received both on and off this forum from both sides of the coin.
Perhaps had I not already got an Apexi/Commander I might well have gone with the Gems knowing what I do now, however, I do have the Apexi and with the addition of an AVC-R, it will do what I need it to do.
This is based solely on:
What is the most cost effective way to achieve my goals taking into account advice received both on and off this forum from both sides of the coin.
Perhaps had I not already got an Apexi/Commander I might well have gone with the Gems knowing what I do now, however, I do have the Apexi and with the addition of an AVC-R, it will do what I need it to do.
28 June 2006, 08:25 PM
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is that I can do this without resorting to rubbishing the opposition.
Sorry. This just sort of tickled my sense of humour!... ignore me...
Last edited by AlanG; 28 June 2006 at 08:45 PM.
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