Leslie

The strongest argument about children being brought up in a normal family, ie a mother and father, is that children need the balance between a father and mother during their formative years. It is also the previously accepted right way to have children and I think that is right. Men and women agree to live together with vows towards each other and then they make babies and bring them up properly. All this "Brave New World" stuff is all very clever but it is a retrograde step and I believe it will cause even greater troubles in years to come, its bad enough already with dysfunctional children who have grown up in a non traditional family. The old ways are undeniably the best ways in this context, born out of long experience.

Les

lozgti

Anne,the same of course could be said about you.The insistence that people should 'widen their horizons' .Ted's post for example strikes me as a social worker 'gone bad' and the post almost a threat.

What if you and Ted are wrong and it is indeed a strange phase which is occurring at a time when people seem to have anything they want,do anything they want and want to be things that they aren't?

Everyone has a view and those that find it odd should be quite entitled to say that

Two smiles for you

Ted Maul

I don't mean any threat. Its just that these stories give the perception that its 2 bolshie loud mouthed lesbos who demand children as their right and **** everyone else (these type of people deserve nothing, straight or gay). Its not the case though in real life. I know a lesbian couple who have a huge maternal instinct and really want to bring a child into the world who they can raise as a good person. They are in all contexts normal people who just happen to like to enjoy strap ons I feel strongly they deserve the huge joys of a family like other good straight people

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

Post of the week right here, "if you choose" yes because people choose to be gay,, its totally a life style choice

Everyone who has love to give and can provide has the right to children ! Male female or both

Leslie

Good point Lozgti.

We should not lose sight of the fact that the most important person in all this is the child concerned. The feelings and desires of the parents are second to this whether heterosexual or not. The child has a life to live and it should be given the best start possible. I believe that the way to do that is in the traditional family as I described in my first post on this thread.

The "modern" style of wanting everything as Loz said and hang the consequences is a sign of a loss in standards and a denigration of self control and personal responsibilty.

As UB said, this country has been allowed to sink into a state of moral indifference as is indicated by the behaviour of the senior ministers concerned. This will eventually lead to a breakdown in society followed by repressive government which could even be part of the "Secret Agenda". They certainly don't care about the electorate.

Les

Chip

What rights do they have to have children if they are gay? None at all.

Chip

Anne Robinson

LOL, **** me, we got there in the end, a bit later than anticipated, but thanks for bringing the witheringly irrational back to the table, Chip.

Look, think of it this way. If, and I know it's a big if for you, you can accept that some people just "are" gay, then this does NOT mean that they must necessarily not have any maternal/paternal feelings or abilities. Unless of course you want to go down some Brave New World scenario.

Just because somebody is gay or lesbian, and therefore doesn't want to produce a child in the normal heterosexual way, does NOT mean they cannot make a damned good mother or father figure. A *hell* of a lot better than some spotty teenage scumchavess banged up in a side alley of some trashy nightclub who then spends the next sixteen years leeching off the State.

Or is that ok, just because she was physiologically able to have a child, Chip? The extent to which you loathe gays and the extent to which you would withdraw their rights, given half a chance, is mind-boggling. If your kids are fed your blinkered outlook then I already feel sorry for them. Does ANY of what I've said make sense or is it just a case of lock them all up and throw away the keys?

Anne Robinson

I take your point, Loz. But, and there's a big but. You're basically saying that because it doesn't sound right, doesn't feel comfortable, goes against the grain, that we must automatically and unequivocally prevent anything out of the ordinary occurring. What I and those like me are saying is that given the chance, this type of set-up can, and - get this - DOES work successfully, if it's properly screened and monitored.

I always get the feeling that those opposed to all these "freakish" new ideas think that gay people want to experience parenthood for some devious, perverted, seedy reason, rather than because they might just, heaven forbid, want kids for exactly the same reason any other prospective parent might. Frightening thought, huh? And what I'm urging you to consider is that we can allow decent kids to be brought into this world if we can just unshackle ourselves from what we perceive to be the "only" way, just because you can throw the "Mother Nature" book at it, and assume all other alternatives MUST be wrong. Just think about it. Cheers.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

The fact that it would take 3 people in a gay relationship to concieve a child, and surely that child would grow up wanting to know who his/her father was like 98% of the other kids in school who had a father?

The Left wing loonies are so dedicated sticking up for the minorities these days, they forget whoever is going to suffer just look at every day life in this country ffs

Anne Robinson

Thanks for that.

I'm neither Left wing, nor, last time I checked, a lunatic.

If you think that allowing gays the right to be parents is the only situation in which difficulties/complications surrounding the identification of mother/father arise, then better we cease the conversation right here, as I'll obviously be talking to deaf ears.

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

There are plenty of dodgy parents ,single parents out there. What do you do though when your child comes home asking why all the other kids have a Mummy and Daddy? and where is their dad, obviously someone is their father.

I feel this country has been on a moral decline for the last 30 years

Anne Robinson

Do you think gay parents are allowed this treatment without ANY thought whatsoever to precisely those sorts of questions? LOL, you do, don't you?! Look, I do understand how we can all shoot from the hip on this one, type our gut instinct etc etc. What actually happens out there in the big bad world isn't always in accordance with those instinctive reactions though. People put thought into this, they don't treat lives as some sort of commodity, and if there are still people involved in the process who haven't weedled out those who want a kid as some sort of normality-defining "statement", then THEY'RE the people we need to be most concerned with!!!
Personally, I don't see any of what we've been discussing as a reflection of a decline in morality at all, in fact I'd argue that there are FAR less moral situations concerning childbirth way above letting two people of the same sex just get on with it. But hey, I'm just a left-wing loonie, what do I know?

unclebuck

Yea, probs yours...



You lardy arsed butt head...

sociopath

Indeed, what DO you know? You know how to pervert the minds of people who could be impressionable. You know how to try and rationalise that which we know is wrong. Hell, you probably even know how to convince kids that ******** adults is right and that donkey sex is 'ok by me'.

You are pushing a line, a line that is biologically rigid but morally malleable. In ten years from now you could be arguing against someone far more extreme than yourself. I want to know how far you will go. And if you have a limit then what will be your defence against those who would go further?

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Pushing a line that in any other species is un workable, are we above and beyond the laws of nature?

Chip

Yes I can accept that some people are gay.





Told you before its probably down to the traditional way I was brought up . I don't particularly loathe gays at all. What is I hate is all the political correctness that goes with it.



Would you not agree that a child being brought up in a family environment with a happily married mother and father is more stable than being brought up by two homosexual partners.

Chip

Leslie

Of course it is Chip, that was how nature ordained procreation in the first place. Both in the animal kingdom and in humans.

Her admiitted "freakish" ideas go against any commonsense view that have been in place since the start of it all and are an illustration of the frightening moral decline in past years.

Les

Luan Pra bang

The thing that really gets on my **** though is that those health authorities who provide fertility treatments on the NHS will provide the same services to wooftas and pooftas. My taxes will pay for queers to have children which I find an abomination. It sems strange that the queer minority seem to have the whole world bending over backwards to help them out. The banning of reggae artisits who dare to oppose the wooftas and pooftas, While bands like screwdriver were still allowd to perform says it all really.

Anne Robinson

Morning sociopath, nice of you to drop in. I'm not trying to "pervert" anyone, impressionable or not. God knows where you get that idea from. I'm just trying to provide some balance to the Scoobynet anti-gay crusade (indeed, look how infantile it can get from the "wooftas and pooftas" references in LPB's post, UB's "can't think of anything else to say so try and make a crass joke around the word butt" post, etc etc), by making people aware that gay people are, by and large, apart from their sexuality, just like you and me. They eat the same food, read the same papers, and can look after kids in just the same way. It really is that simple. I'm not entirely sure how much more "extreme" this scenario can get, indeed if it's extreme at all. It's just allowing something to happen that can work successfully. Hell, the chances of you meeting a same sex parental pair is remote, it's not like they're going to start taking over the bloody country!! It's a tiny minority of cases, for whom I am simply saying that sexuality alone shouldn't be a barrier to them becoming parents. Most of what I'm hearing so far is to my opinion just a matter of fear of the unknown, dressed up as a morality issue. Not sure if I've addressed the point you made adequately, but hopefully so.

Chip

Anne

Would you not agree that a child being brought up in a family environment with a happily married mother and father is more stable than being brought up by two homosexual partners

Chip

Leslie

Don't think she can answer that one Chip!

Personally I am not anti homosexuals as I have stated often enough.

I am very pro what is best for children however and for their upbringing


Les

Chip

I won't hold my breath

Chip

douglasb

Fnarr, Fnarr!

dsmith

being gay is natural.

if you are gay it is also natural you cant have children. (I really dont think there is an arument here ?)

IVF should not therefore be an option.

I really wouldnt want to put a pair of lesbains (and a child) in a situation where they are forced to live unnaturally.

IVF for a hetrosexual couple is an entirely different ball game and is there to correct a situation back to what is natural.

Anne Robinson

Yep, I probably would. Look, I am not here to (for the pun lovers) trying to ram this down anybody's throat, I'm not saying it's better than the scenario you've described, but I *am* saying it's a workable alternative, and a better environment than so many out there where kids have no chance in life because they're unwanted, unloved, ignored, shunned, and worse.

dsmith, you've hit the nail on the head with regards this argument. "Natural", as you've defined it yourself, is simply the act of getting pregnant. The ****. The drunk **** leading to a teenage pregnancy. The rape. The baby conceived with the intention of saving a relationship. Try, please, to get your head around the fact that just because one of a pair of women, for example, don't lay on their backs to get pregnant from a man shooting up inside them just to appease the "natural" brigade, doesn't mean they can't make good mothers if their child is conceived another way, either by IVF, forstering and so on. It's an irrational distinction. Stating it's ok for heterosexual couples to go through this just eases your conscience and sweeps the gay issue under the carpet, as in practical terms there is no difference.

Chip

Your seeing sense at last




Of course there is a difference. A child should be brought in a family group which comprises both a mother and father and not have 2 mums or 2 dads.

Chip

Leslie

You seem to place more importance on the feelings etc of a homosexual couple than on those of the child and its upbringing as well as it's future Anne Robinson.

There is no better way for a child to be brought up in a stable heterosexual family, that cannot be denied!

Les

lozgti

My view is a bit simplistic.I am not knocking that a same sex couple couldn't be loving and caring.

It's just that (son or daughter),there are some things you turn to your father for and some to your mother.Again,probably sexist but there are numerous things (sporting and the like) that I will be doing with my son (and hopefully daughter )in the future.Things that would have no interest to my wife but would to the children.Things she will expect me to do as a father.

The same applies to things the children will see and do with their mother.I just think same sex couple's will not offer such a balanced upbringing .

It will always be the child that loses

Anne Robinson

Don't like to be the one to break it to you but I haven't been saying anything different all along. Don't assume what I've said, read what I've said.


It might be a compromise over two good parents of differing sex, I'll grant you, but it's certainly not a compromise over **** parents, of which there are many. If you actually knew any same-sex couples for whom this is a reality, I'm pretty sure you'd see things slightly differently, although I'm also sure you'd never fully accept it. But that would be a start.

Chip

Anne,
I do actually know and get on very well with a same sex couple. Both had been married before and now have grandchildren as well. I am also sure that if I asked them what they thought of same sex adoption then they would have exactly the same views as me.

Chip

Chip