Hoppy

Tell me which bits of **** in particular, with your reasons, and I'll try to clarify.

Richard.

Hoppy

Moses, I can't reply to you. Your posts are a contradictory rant, I can make no sense of them, they are inflamatory, and yes, you do come across as a religious fanatic and a terrorist supporter. You need to ask yourself some difficult questions (as we all do) and not sweep them under the carpet (as we all tend to do). You don't seem to be 'at one' with being a British citizen.

And please don't judge me. I am very torn by this latest conflict, but for sure I truly believe that there have been horrible acts commited by both Israelis/Jews and Lebanese/Palestinians for no logical reason - just blood lust.

I don't want to bring other members of my family into this, but for the record there is a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian position based on decades of studying and teaching Arabic, and from living in Lebanon. I have very great affection for many Lebanese people, and I hoped to re-visit some of them this Autumn. This plan is sadly on hold.

Richard.

Brendan Hughes

Eh? Not if it's a totally illegal invasion you don't. Blair is PM, he's not a dictator, and we're perfectly entitled to disagree with him. And why should being British mean you have to support the Government? Does that mean that 90% of NSR should have their citizenship revoked? As they sure as hell don't.
Wrong. In his usual way, moses is right, though aggressively so. If you're fighting a war, you target the army and military installations, not civilians. The Pentagon as the central command of the US Army would be the first target in any war. Yes, there's secretaries, but they're all government/military secretaries controlling the military machine, legitimate targets whether they like it or not. It's not the Ministry of Health FFS. Similarly, IDF (I believe) are members of the army, conscripted or otherwise. What's really doing people's head in is what happens to all those Israeli civilians who carry weapons for self-defence. Laws of war say that an armed militia is a legitimate target as well. It's another reason why people hope they don't apply in this conflict, as suddenly it will be "acceptable" to attack pretty much all the Israeli civilians.

Those are the rules of the game Hoppy, they've evolved over a hundred years and are pretty much agreed by almost all the developed countries in the world, whatever your own personal views on them. As I've said, Israel and the USA are a couple of notable exceptions to the accord. I wonder why.

Bombing people on buses etc, from either side, is sick and indefensible.

Leslie

In what way have I lost the plot Warrenm2? if you are going to denigrate my character then you should be able to justify it.

Moses speaks the truth as he sees it, he hates to see innocent civilians killed and their country destroyed whether they are Arabs or Israelis. I see nothing but good in that personally. He is honest enough to say that he sees the state of Israel as a bad influence in the Middle East since it occupies Arab land. He is entitled to his own opinion as we all are.

When it comes to the present conflict, let me ask what you think a country should do when it is threatened by a terrorist organisation which is committed to driving its citizens into the sea? What should we do if we were suffering rockets being fired into our towns? Should we stand back and let it happen? Did we allow a similar sort of fascism to continue to increase its power over the world sixty seven years ago?

Israel has no option but to try to destroy Hezbollah even though I think it will not be possible to prevent it arising again in the future. It cannot let its own people be continually attacked by rockets aand suicide bombers.

I very much regret the damage and destruction and loss of civilian life in Lebanon. It was a mistake for its government to let Hezbollah grow in power and rely on them for the defence of Lebanon. At least Israel has now reduced air strikes and is sending in the troops instead.

I have said before that war is obscene as we can all see easily enough, but the main blame lies incontrovertibly at Hezbollah's feet!

Les

KiwiGTI

You certainly have lost the plot with this pro-Israeli and anti-Hezbollah nonsense,. You need to do a bit more research ino Hezbollah and find out what they do, how important they are to the Lebanese and what they are fighting for.

Who defines them as terrorists? Only the US and Israel and I wonder why. The Israelis are on occupied lands and Hezbollah wants them out and rightly so.

You are swallowing the lies that the US, Britain and Israel are falsely spreading. Why is every enemy action now termed an act of terrorism? Why, for example, can the Allied forces invade Iraq with bombs and warplanes etc and then when an Iraqi blows up an APC or tank it's termed an act of terrorism.

Hezbollah are freedom fighters, a resistance force, with a legitamate grievance that the rest of the world just ignores.

shustir

Yeah tell that to the people who have been blown up whilst trying to get out of these places which have been 'leafleted'. Its just as dangerous trying to leave as it is staying. On top of that IDF blows all the roads apart, so how the f*ck are you supposed to get any where.

What about the 4 UN peacekeepers that were killed. 10 Emergency calls to the IDF informing them of their position, so IDF goes in with a precision guided rocket and blows them all to smitherines.

Brendan Hughes

Agree with all of this except the first phrase of the last sentence. If Hezbollah targeted the Israeli military I'd call them freedom fighters. Sending rockets *****-nilly into towns makes them terrorists. It's to their own detriment that they can't make this distinction.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

They do not have the laser guided precision weaponry like their protagonists.

KiwiGTI

But I doubt very much whether they have any access to quality intelligence, as well as this these are acts of desperation.

Is a civilian on occupied lands (ie: technically an invader) an acceptable target? I think so.

Brendan Hughes

Sorry, backtrack - what part of Lebanon was Israel occupying before this kicked off two weeks ago? I didn't think they were. Is Haifa, where missiles are landing, part of the UN-recognised occupied territories? No. So the above is not relevant.

Hoppy

It's a cliche, but as they say, all is fair in love and war. There are no rules, and that has been convincingly demonstrated over recent years all over the globe.

And yes, you can disagree with the government and elect a new one every five years. But if you are a member of the armed forces and are told to go and fight an 'illegal' war in Iraq, then you go. Or to any other territory for that matter, even if you are a conscript. Though not many ScoobyNetters or Muslims in our armed forces, that's for sure.

For what it's worth, I don't agree with it either and would have extreme difficulty if such a question was ever put to me. I would be a conscientious objector, as my father was in WW2. He served in the Merchant Navy and If anybody thinks that's cowardly, remember that the Merchant Navy suffered some of the highest casualties rates while bringing vital supplies across the Atlantic. Those are the rules of our democracy.

Richard.

Brendan Hughes

Well if you want to rely on a trite cliché to say it's acceptable to kill civilians for no military purpose, that's your point of view. Tell that to the US soldiers now serving jail sentences for their acts in Abu Graib. Tell that to those Balkan officers in jail in the Hague. Tell that to 8000 men and boys shot dead at Srebrenica. If you haven't noticed, both sides have had convictions, it's not just victor's justice.

Fall back on some pseudo-literary romantic crap if you wish, but don't expect many people to agree with you.

Hoppy

Let's be clear about the territorial issue. Israel is a tiny corner of the Middle East, and has been inhabited by Jews pretty much since the beginning of time. There are legitimate 'claims' to this territory on both sides.

But the real point is that Britain and the US established the state of Israel after WW2. Israel has since stretched its borders, but not for territorial gain, for national security. Have you seen these newly captive lands? Nobody lives there, it's virtually uninhabitable desert with only army personel there to guard the borders.

But talk of territory is irrelevant. This dispute is about tribal hatred, pivoting around race and religion, nothing else. What possible interest does Iran have in gaining Israeli ground, or Syria, or Iraq? They already occupy a huge land mass, but are very happy to stand back and help feed the Palestinian cause from a safe distance.

If the roles were reversed, and Hezbollah had the military power of Israel, what would the death toll in Israel be now? They would be slaughtered in cold blood. It doesn't bear thinking about.

And do you think that that would be an end to the problem? No. The only thing that unites Arabs is their hatred of Israel and with Israel gone, they would return to fighting amongst themselves. Check the history of the Middle East. For starters, just google Sabra and Shatila 1982 for a chilling read.

Furthermore, we (and the US) need a stategic military position in the Middle East. Why else do we have a miltary base in Cyprus? And this is where we come to the meat of the matter from a Western standpoint - OIL. No wonder that the UN is spineless. Israel doesn't have too many fans in the UN, but the whole of western Europe needs a position with some control in the Middle East to keep the oil flowing and our economies stable. That's why Israel is allowed to do anything it wants. Without Israel, we would all be struggling with massive energy prices.

Finally, and again, who started this war? It wasn't Israel although it is becoming clear that they are using the excuse of Hezbollah to secure a much greater position of stength and self defence. Hezbollah can stop the killing now, yet they continue to fire rockets even as I am writing this. And then, if the Lebanese people also rejects Hezbollah (and Hamas etc etc etc) then Lebanon and the wonderful city of Beirut can return to an enduring peace.

Sadly, with the currently agressive status of Islam, that's not going to happen any time soon

Richard.

PS Sorry Bravo, didn't mean to rant at you

Hoppy

Brendan, this is really a purely hypothetical point, but you have just proved in your post that there is no such thing as a 'legal' war. The whole notion is preposterous and those soldiers serving jail sentences won't bring back the dead. Nor will it stop innocent civilians being slaughtered in any future conflicts. It is you that seems to have the 'romantic' notion of war being somehow okay if a certain group of people says it is

Richard.

Brendan Hughes

What are you on about? Those thousands of soldiers who attack other soldiers are not punished. Those who kill civilians are, or should be. Can't you see the difference? Why don't you ask soldiers if they are given any training in the Geneva Conventions and how they should act? I'm sure you'll find the Brits are, I was reading a Falklands autobiography of how a pilot thought it would be a good idea to attack a power station until he was told not to. The notion HAS stopped innocent civilians being slaughtered. Not all of them, but it's certainly slashed the number.

Why don't you say that murder is a preposterous charge and purely hypothetical, as people still do it round the UK these days? Burglary - is that OK because lots of people do it? You are totally confusing what does happen with what should happen. I am saying yes, it does happen, but that does NOT make it right.

BTW you are also confusing a legal war with legal acts within war - that's a whole new discussion as well.

Hoppy

Brendan, we might come at this from different perspectives, but I think we are actually in agreement.

I am all for debate and diplomacy, and if any rules of engagement can be agreed then that cannot do any harm. I'm just saying that in practise, in the horrific heat of war, it's unlikely to help much.

Whatever the legal or illegal status of the current events in Israel and Lebanon, it hasn't prevented any civilian casualties that I am aware of.

Actually, the best news for reducing innocent deaths that I have heard so far, is that 20,000 Israeli troops are now pushing into South Lebanon to oust Hezbollah in hand-to-hand combat and secure a buffer zone. At least a rifle is, in theory, a far more descriminate weapon that a bomb or shell. I certainly hope so.

Richard.

Diablo

Large proportions of the american population thought that the IRA were freedom fighters, a resistance force with a legitimate grievance.

I wonder how many Northern Irish would agree with that?

Brendan Hughes

I was thinking we're working towards something as well. My point is those laws are there to guide, and yes, some will listen and some won't. And they haven't prevented casualties when they should have done, that's the whole point. To me, the main fuss in the last couple of weeks (last 40 years?) is that Israel, a supposedly civilised, developed and democratic country doesn't abide by them. Nobody abides by them in Africa either (Congo, Rwanda) but we middle-class suburbanites don't care because "that's Africa, they're all like that". Israel is not expected to behave in that way.

Brendan Hughes

Wassup, you want this thread to go to a thousand posts?

Adam M

I don't understand how someone can be a believer in peace and them support suicide bombing.

I simply don't believe that anyone should be killed for their actions or beliefs.

Even Hitler. As a jew I hate everything he stood for, but faced with it, I could never kill him or any other human being as that just makes me the same as them, killing out of hatred.

I don't believe violence solves anything, and I fear that what is going on puts us close to WW3 and that still scares me.

Moses, I would like to ask, if you were Israel going about your daily business, and then suddenly two of your soldiers were taken from your land, what would you do?

Given you said that israel should be wiped off the face of this planet, if israel were to try to make peace with someone who believed what you do, then exactly how confident would they be in their security after negotiating a peace deal with you as a neighbour?

I think that is the route of the problem. The surrounding states don't want a peace agreement that gives them some land back, they want all their land back and for israel to dissappear. I don't see how this can end peacefully with fanatics prepared to do terrible things on both sides all in the name of religion.

Adam M

sorry but I disagree. I had several relatives killed on concentration camps, most of them children. Some gas chambers and some I dread to think but the truth has never been explained to me as I learned about it at a young age from my surviving relatives.

Yes I hate the people responsible, but faced with a gun in my hand or my finger on a button, I could not kill them for what they did. If anything it would be too easy for them and solve nothing for me. I would far rather spend a long time making them remorseful for what happened. If it gets to a point where I realise they simply cannot see the wrong they have committed and have no moral values, then I would simply hope that the rest of their life is equal to the suffering they inflicted but without the benefit of an early death to provide some release.

TelBoy

Remorse? Jews and Arabs? You're having a laugh, Adam.

Adam M

bravo,

you seem to make out that the israelis draw first blood. I don't recall that happening. I could be wrong, but from what I remember Israeli fire, however extreme (often very) is always in retaliation, or defense, never in attack.

moses

just one thing to say

God bless u bravo mate just read your posts, thanks


i dont need to say nothing , couldnt have said it better and cheers leslie mate even if i disagree with u on hezbollah, their freedomfighters and liberators and def did not start this war, rather check out how many innocent lebanese r in the israeli prisoners for over 20 yrs still not let out, where is the human rights and also israel occupy shebaa farms, lebanese terroritory and continue to violate their airspace with f-16's and drones

hail lebanon

and i missed newsnight yesterday, i just been past a link and gonna watch it today, i woz told the zionist jews in it were sickening

here


http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolavconsole/i...toryid=5235578


i got nothing else to say, coz i dont wanna get extreme and angry


and adam mate, israel is the aggressor not the defender, never has been, to the narrow minded americans they act like a lil tiny state against big surrounding arab monster states , far from it, rather its a scorpion a snake surrounded by defenceless mice who have no war power or backup and military power, the lil mujahideens with their bodies take on the israeli genocide machine coz the arab regimes r cowardly and corrupt within.

i will give u an example, in the quran we r taught about the spider and how not to trust the enemies of islam and get trapped and dont take them as allies coz they seek your destruction

if u look at the spiders power how it traps the prey and sucks it out dry and leaves a shell, thats what the arab regimes r, they have been sucked dry by the usa and other regimes and the israeli's and only a dead shell is left and their only good at buying ferraris or sleeping with ****** while they r taken to the slaughterhouse willingly


the prophet peace be upon him said

their will be a day when the enemies of islam will come to the muslim lands as they come to dinner, see in the arab tradition , the arabs all share and eat their food sitting on the carpet and the food is in the middle and they all share

and he gave a story a parable that the enemies would come and come to the muslim and arab lands as they come to dinner , basically tearing it and sharing its booties and killing muslims and the muslims didnt understand and said, oh prophet would the muslims be so few, he said no, their will be many muslims but they will have the love of wahn in their hearts ( love of material things), but their will be a few who will resist and fight back the enemies.

and it came true. look the arabs have oil they dont even use it to take on the aggression of the usa and israel and stop the oil going to these countries, nothing at all, they luv material things so much they cant even defend themselves or their brothers and sisters

for 2 jewish soldiers israel destroyed and commited a holocaust in lebanon but for hundreds and thousands of arabs killed, the arabs and muslims sit back and say hello master usa and hello u and we r your fecking slaves till eternity

u should watch syriana, good film


hoppy i dont wanna entertain u, coz u already got your mind made up, so its cool

but im sure i can have a discussion with adam

moses

and adam israel is the most racist regime in the world, apartheid regime


its bad for a **** or muslim or christian to say anything about jews but its cool to say anything to the gentile or arab sand ******, thats what u guys call them dont u

hitler or a whiteman is condemned to say he is a superior race but the jew say we r superior even our genes r divine and we r the chosen race and people

its messed up

Diablo

It did cross my mind

moses

i see alot of folk dont know much about hezbollah, its the only mujahideen army who's ever sent the usa and israel packing out of lebanon in the past and also the saviours of the poor folk in lebanon, they run schools, hospitals and social services and pay for poor folks kids to get decent education and push for womans rights and jobs and grant them education


their a product of the israeli aggression in lebanon in the 1980's

thats how they were created, people like u and me getting together and defending their country


here is some info


http://www.islamonline.net/English/M...06/07/04.shtml



and here is what the christian arabs think of them, hero's


http://www.islamonline.net/English/N...07/31/03.shtml