J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Hopefully in a few years people will start seeing sense, my family has completely rid itself of the religous dogma passed down through the years and hopefully the rest of humankind will do the same and wake up, if you are going to have a turf war, have a turf war but why dress it up as a religous matter.

Trouble is in some religous communities its very hard to drop out of the collective obsession as you get ostracized or even murdered hence why it gets propogated down the ages, you are not fulfilling your obligations so you get done over even though a lot of the time with religion its just going through the motions to please your parents and fit in with your peers, so year in year out you have to blindly observe rituals that make no sense and make no difference and everybody else has to fit in with your rituals and walk round on eggshells for fear of causing offence.

That isnt directed at any particular religion, just ones where the cycle hasnt been broken yet, put it this way, numerous religions that all think they are correct, that means the rest are getting it wrong and even if one has it spot on theres a lot of people living a lie.

I think my lack of faith comes from working in IT, you cant trust a 3 year old book in IT to be current let alone a 2000 odd year old one.

I might get flamed for the above but its what I think, I came to my own conclusions based on my experiences, I went to church as a kid, I had religous Instruction at school but I rejected it all because I could without reprisal, I was under no pressure to conform so I made my own choices and my parents still speak to me, my parents had already broken the cycle, my grandfather who I loved dearly was a devout Catholic but I am not and I never will be, other bits of the family still do bits of it and go to church occasionally but its on the wane, what needs to occur in place of religion is,

1/ A proper moral code
2/ An effective justice system, to deal with those who dont observe 1

Get rid of all the symbolism and Mumbo Jumbo, make it simple, workable and beleiveable and people may just observe it, a way to live that isnt steeped in 2000 year old bullsh1t, wouldnt that be great, all the rules about sex, booze, food, adultrey put into line with actual laws, rather than having daft rules that contradict good sense and the law, bring it all into line. Remember the church used to be the Police, the Govermenent and occasionally a religous institution.

Doesnt sort out the middle east, but f*ck em, every time anybody tries to get involved it backfires anyway.

lozgti

Don't think Hitler was that bothered about reigion.Just fancied a bit of world domination.

I'm disappointed people shrug off the Holocaust.I also find it really sad that people are dying because of politicians and other so called leaders.

I feel sorry for the innocents on both sides and am concerned this one is going to last longer than the usual short spat.

Hoppy

Jacko, that comes across as sincere mate

I'll just pick you up on one point - the current Middle East conflict is not a turf war. Israel is a tiny country, about the size of Wales I think. Most of its neighbours are huge.

It's about race, religion, faith whatever. Blind hatred actually. Why would Moses want to bomb the Penagon in a turf war? Then again, why he would want to do any of the hideous things he says is beyond my comprehension.

Richard.

KiwiGTI

And how much effect did the religious teachings have on your morals? I think most religions (not Islam, it's a cult) have good moral frameworks.

1 and 2 are fine, we do need that, but there is undooubtedly a spiritual need in the majority of human beings.

As I've said before there aren't many people who wouldn't pray if a close relative was in a serious accident, had cancer or they were in a life threatening incident. As tough as most keyboard warriors are the expriences of military psychologists and padre's are well documented and the old cliche of there being no atheists in foxholes stands true.

Luan Pra bang

If someone you don't really like moved into your back garden and claimed it as their own while killing your family that becomes a good reason to have a war that is definately turf related. If Israel was in the USA we would not be discussing this now.

Geezer

As much as I dislike Israel and think Israel should not have been created, it was the Arabs who invaded Israel first, killing Israelis, not as you say it is.

Geezer

Hoppy

There are lots of races/religions that have lived in the territory we now know as Israel. If three thousand years of history is relevant today, then the Jews have as good a claim as anybody.

I agree that the land has become symbolic of the racial hatred today. But we are also stuck with the fact that Britain helped create Israel post WW2 and it's not going away.

Richard.

Luan Pra bang

Zionists have bee attaempting to invade palestine for 100 years.


Quote from 1895

Luan Pra bang

Zionists came up with a calculated plan to purchase and disposess Arabs from their land in palestine in order to create the Israeli State. Part of this plan involved not allowing Jews to employ or work with arabs in the arabs own country.

GCollier

You are joking right? Most religions are simply expressions of ancient myth, fear and pure blind ignorance dressed up - and lent authority by - the supposed laws of all-powerful divine beings.

A small part of the teachings of some religions could be regarded as morally good. But on the whole they're simply mind-numbing, life-sapping pap, full of divine authority figures promising lots of flaying, burning, scourging etc to anyone who doesn't follow unethical and arbitrary rules about how to live their life.

So whilst some spirituality may well be necessary to human beings, J4cko is basically entirely correct, and the sweeping away of our current organised religions is a necessity in order for proper ethics to be installed.

Gary.

Suresh

So the idiots willingly sold their land to the 'Zionists'. Whose fault is that then. Let me guess, it's the fault of the West and may they all burn in hell for it etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum

And GCollier - thanks for one of the best well-reasoned posts on this thread (apart from all of moses' efforts of course)

BlkKnight

http://www.fromisraeltolebanon.info/

jasey

Why not kill two birds with one stone and give Wales to the Jews

Leslie

I think what KiwiGT said at the end of his post to you J4CKO was pretty accurate. I'll bet most people if they see a dangerous situation developing would pray to be let off.

There is no doubt that this country was a much pleasanter place to live when it was still a largely Christian society, Its all very well to talk of strongly defined laws and positive punishment to enforce them but it is far far better when people follow a civilised life because they actually believe that is a better way to live than an anarchic existence. That was the sort of attitude which was generated by Christian beliefs in this country. Yes we need laws in a civilised society of course and appropriate punishment for breaking them. But it is also a big improvement when people obey the law because they think it is right to do in the way that Christian or most other religions teach as a lifestyle.

Just laws and fear of punishment only can only too easily lead to represssive goverment and a police state!

Les

wez_sti

My understanding of this situation is quite limited so please bare with me!

but is the israel situation not a little bit like France, Germany and the USA deciding that *random religion* people need a place to call their own and giving them London to live in, then making anyone currently in London move?

jasey

Yep - but it's ok if you're an oppressed Jew - you can do what the **** you want - cos your mates the septics will let you test their bombs on anyone who disagrees with you

wez_sti

Would imagine all the Londoners would be pretty pissed!

Then there'd be the minority that would take extreme action....

Then the rest of the population would be the ones punished!

Really do sympathise with the Lebonese people

jasey

To complete the "picture" it would also be like the Welsh then attacking the *random religous group* now in London and the *random religous group* then bombing the ex-londoners to stop the Welsh .

Oh yes - and the Germans then siding with the French to supply the Religous group with bombs just incase they ran out.

Adam M

Gary, sorry but that is total drivel. I don't know much about islam, but I know there is a lot about doing the right thing and being a good person.

as for judaism, having been immersed in it my whole life, I think I would struggle to find a commandment, teaching or story that is not concerned with teaching people to be upstanding and moral.

The bloody ten commandments, the basic fundamental rules of judaism and christianity.

don't kill
don't steal
don't lie
honour your parents
don't cheat on your wife etc etc.

There is interpretation that states that killing in self defence is ok, and yes I believe this interpretation has a lot to answer for but how can you say the above is not meant to teach people to be good.

I studied a little more recently and for the first time learned that the essence of the whole religion is a guide or a framework designed to teach people to do the right thing throughout life.

I think you will find that truely religious people will not slag off anyone, other religions included, because it goes against the principles at the core of their personalities.

They also tend to be highly moral respectable people. the kiddy fiddling priests are simply frauds.

Those I know who genuinely believe and follow what they study tend to be the most decent human beings I have ever met, and that includes jews, hindus, christians, muslims, sikhs you name it.

jasey

Maybe you should post this up on the Israeli governments website

Adam M

more bollocks being sprouted here.

Half of israels citizens are arabs who live happily in peace. No one said if you aren't jewish get out, not now and not then. Being non jewish is a bit different from being a potential suicide bomber.

Ask any arab israeli if they are treated as second class citizens. Once again, misinformation and bias probably due to the press.

Adam M

Maybe you shouldn't misquote to bend the truth to suit your point.

jasey

What are you talking about - where did I "misquote".

You said that a basic tennet of religous life is to not kill, steal or lie and I suggest that the Israeli Government is quite happy to do all three.

Adam M

you left out the next line.

jasey

What the bit about killing in self defence !

Sorry just for you.

It's OK to wipe out a nation if some ragheads steal two of your soldiers.

Better

Luan Pra bang

They sold some land then had the rest stolen from them. BY use of force

Leslie

Well said Adam. You are absolutely right.

Les

shustir

Self defence is attacking only those who attack you. Not a few dozen perpetrators and many thousands of innocent civilians.

The arrogance and nonchalance portrayed by the Israeli officials and ministers is sickening

Adam you sound like a reasonable and level headed bloke, do you really believe Israel's response is appropriate.

KiwiGTI

Course it's not appropriate but what would you expect jew to do, disagree with his own kind?

The Israelis are disgusting, it is quite true that we have not seen an organised regime like this since **** Germany. They are absolutely destoying Lebanon as a country, any infrastructure of note is being destroyed.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/me...ain/index.html
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...536197,00.html

The comparisons to the Warsaw ghetto are obvious.

Geezer

Have a look at this then. Pretty much sums up the evil and bigotry preached by the bible.

Geezer