Reality

But they just keep voting in nutters to run the place. Yeah - whatever.

stanscooby

I was thinking of going on holiday in cyprus next week but i dont fancy packing the 1,000,000 sunblock just incase someone pushes a big red button!

Hoppy

Gary, nice idea. I've tried it on Catholics without success. Once they've been to Lourdes (sp?) it's a hopeless task. Questioning this kind of faith is like insulting their mother, and it's a red card offence.

What you appear to be saying is, in actual practical terms, that Bush and Blair throw off their coats of many Christian colours, pull down all the churches, denounce all religion, and invite all other faiths to do the same

I respectfully suggest that a) that will never happen, and b) it would never work. There'd be civil war first, and Christian suicide bombers walking into Downing Street.

And BTW, yes, all religion is dogma. It is also a way of life for very many people. I was struck by this on holiday with some Greek friends last year, who did not appear to be at all religious (very worldly capitalists, actually) don't go to church etc. But they adhere to religious practise, have a small shrine in their villa, and acknowledge faith as part of their nationality. In other words, you can't pull faith and people apart - they are two halves of the same coin and deeply inter-woven.

Best regards,

Richard.

PS Good debate though

Hoppy

No they don't! The Lebanese government has nothing to do with it. Sadly.

Reality

I was talking about Israel

Hoppy

Ah well, that's different. But they only have a choice between one nutter and the next.

The majority are silent and fed up with arguing with the fundamentalists who will not stay quiet and are indeed as scary as any in Hamas etc.

Believe it or not, the Israeli government is quite moderate, relatively speaking. There are plenty of extremists that would have nuked all the Arabs long ago.

Richard.

GCollier

Difficult yes, hopeless no. The fact that as a country we've (largely) moved on from burning witches, attributing natural disasters to God punishing sinners etc, is evidence that progress is possible.

Blair and Bush doing this is too much to ask or expect (though it would be nice). Nor would I advocate violence such as the physical destruction of churches. But an intelligent and eloquent atheist as a strong political candidate...they could achieve a lot.

Gary.

Monkeh

no matter what you do every taxpayer in the uk is buying weapons for the israel goverment to use against the "terrorists"

we not only supply the guns but we pay for most of them as well.

The only reason we do is to keep the middle east poor and in conflict, we as using isreal like we used saddam hussain and usama bin ladden and many other goverments and factons, when were done with it we will take them over and rape all the wealth.

Why else would we be holding back the most advanced arab country in the world, a country where the first library was built, the alphabet was created !! IRAQ


econimies profit from war, the higher the price of oil, the more money goes into the US banks.. oil is not sold in $ because it was easier !

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Once again someone posts in an incisive and straight to the point manner. It is staggering that a man who has his fingers in several conflict related industries, hold a senior post in the U.S cabinet. Step forward Dick Cheney. This man is profiting enormously from the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

KiwiGTI

And again the masses think that that post was incisive and straight to the point. Bollox.

Using Israel like Saddam Hussein? Not likely with the worldwide Jewish control of the media, banking and US domestic politics.

The Jewish lobby controls the US Government.

I can't believe some of the tripe on here by you liberals. And the thing is you never back it up, I'll probably be subject to a torrent of abuse again now rather than you showing any real evidence.

Some quotes :

"The Israelis control the policy in the congress and the senate."
-- Senator Fullbright, Chair of Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

"Don't worry about American pressure, we the Jewish people control America"
-- Arial Sharon

The US does nothing in the middle east without Israels approval.

||VaNDaL||

i think what both sides in this crisis really need is more love, personally i think mr blair should send our new hippy leader of the opposition to hug a hezbollah

Brendan Hughes

Which makes it a war crime - attacking civilian targets, power stations, infrastructure without direct military gain. Another reason why they won't call it a war.

Ba5tards.

turbotroll

I'm suprised Israel hasn't done this sooner given their history.

1948 War of Independence

On 14 May 1948 the State of Israel was proclaimed according to the UN partition plan (1947). Less than 24 hours later, the regular armies of Egypt, Trans-Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq invaded Israel.
During the first few months of 1949, direct negotiations were conducted under UN auspices between Israel and each of the invading countries (except Iraq which has refused to negotiate with Israel to date), resulting in armistice agreements, which reflected the situation at the end of the fighting. Galilee & Negev were within Israel's sovereignty, Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) came under Jordanian rule, the Gaza Strip came under Egyptian

1956 Sinai Campaign

The 1949 armistice agreements had not only failed to pave the way to permanent peace, but were also constantly violated. In contradiction to the UN Security Council resolution of 1 September 1951, Israeli and Israel-bound shipping was prevented from passing through the Suez Canal; the blockade of the Straits of Tiran was tightened; incursions into Israel of terrorist squads from neighboring Arab countries for murder and sabotage occurred with increasing frequency; and the Sinai peninsula was gradually converted into a huge Egyptian military base.

Upon the signing of a tripartate military alliance by Egypt, Syria and Jordan (October 1956), the imminent threat to Israel's existence was intensified. In the course of an eight-day campaign, the IDF captured the Gaza Strip and the entire Sinai peninsula, halting 10 miles (16 km.) east of the Suez Canal.


A United Nations decision to station a UN Emergency Force (UNEF) along the Egypt-Israel border and Egyptian assurances of free navigation in the Gulf of Eilat led Israel to agree to withdraw in stages (November 1956 - March 1957) from the areas taken a few weeks earlier. Consequently, the Straits of Tiran were opened, enabling the development of trade with Asian and East African countries as well as oil imports from the Persian Gulf.

1967 Six-Day War

Hopes for another decade of relative tranquillity were dashed with the escalation of Arab terrorist raids across the Egyptian and Jordanian borders, persistent Syrian artillery bombardment of agricultural settlements in northern Galilee and massive military build-ups by the neighboring Arab states. When Egypt again moved large numbers of troops into the Sinai desert (May 1967), ordered the UN peacekeeping forces (deployed since 1957) out of the area, reimposed the blockade of the Straits of Tiran and entered into a military alliance with Jordan, Israel found itself faced by hostile Arab armies on all fronts. As Egypt had violated the arrangements agreed upon following the 1956 Sinai Campaign, Israel invoked its inherent right of self-defense, launching a preemptive strike (5 June 1967) against Egypt in the south, followed by a counterattack against Jordan in the east and the routing of Syrian forces entrenched on the Golan Heights in the north.


At the end of six days of fighting, previous cease-fire lines were replaced by new ones, with Judea, Samaria, Gaza, the Sinai peninsula and the Golan Heights under Israel's control. As a result, the northern villages were freed from 19 years of recurrent Syrian shelling; the passage of Israeli and Israel-bound shipping through the Straits of Tiran was ensured; and Jerusalem, which had been divided under Israeli and Jordanian rule since 1949, was reunified under Israel's authority.

From War to War

The war over, Israel's diplomatic challenge was to translate its military gains into a permanent peace based on UN Security Council Resolution 242, which called for "acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." However, the Arab position, as formulated at the Khartoum Summit Conference (August 1967) called for "no peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel and no recognition of Israel." In September 1968, Egypt initiated a 'war of attrition,' with sporadic, static actions along the banks of the Suez Canal, which escalated into full-scale, localized fighting, causing heavy casualties on both sides. Hostilities ended in 1970 when Egypt and Israel accepted a renewed cease-fire along the Suez Canal.

1973 Yom Kippur War

Three years of relative calm along the borders were shattered on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement), the holiest day of the Jewish year, when Egypt and Syria launched a coordinated surprise assault against Israel (6 October 1973), with the Egyptian army crossing the Suez Canal and Syrian troops penetrating the Golan Heights.

During the next three weeks, the Israel Defense Forces turned the tide of battle and repulsed the attackers, crossing the Suez Canal into Egypt and advancing to within 20 miles (32 km.) of the Syrian capital, Damascus. Two years of difficult negotiations between Israel and Egypt and between Israel and Syria resulted in disengagement agreements, according to which Israel withdrew from parts of the territories captured during the war.

1982 Operation Peace for Galilee

The international boundary line with Lebanon has never been challenged by either side. However, when the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) redeployed itself in southern Lebanon after being expelled from Jordan (1970) and perpetrated repeated terrorist actions against the towns and villages of northern Israel (Galilee), which caused many casualties and much damage, the Israel Defense Forces crossed the border into Lebanon (1982).

"Operation Peace for Galilee" resulted in removing the bulk of the PLO's organizational and military infrastructure from the area. Since then, Israel has maintained a small security zone in southern Lebanon adjacent to its northern border to safeguard its population in Galilee against continued attacks by hostile elements.

Adam M

If israel controls america and all the media in the world etc, then why the hell do they het such a rough time i the press?

why with so much power are they constantly on the alert living in fear of anhilation?

why do they need such a massive army to defend themselves if with so much power behind, they surely have no worries.

I would really like to know.

I read this recently:

In 1920 and 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered tens of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron in 1929.

Why did the Arabs, in this case the Palestinians, massacre 67 Jews in one
day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967?
And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots
between 1936-39? Was it because Arabs were upset over 1967?

And when a UN Partition Plan was proposed in 1947 that would
have created a "Palestinian State" alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs
cried "no" and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews - was that "upset" caused
by the aggression of 1967?

The Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and
stones are part of the same people who when they had all the territories
they now demand be given to them for their state -attempted to drive the
Jewish state into the sea."

The fact is historically the muslims hate the jews. Thats all there is to it. The jews seem to hate them back for self defence reasons as far as I can tell, because there is no way on earth that a poxy 12 million jews in the world is looking to destroy 1.2 billion muslims.

I am so sick of saying this.

there are only 12 million jewish people in the whole world. 12,000,000 compared with 1 200 000 000 muslims, anyone notice the factor of 100?

Now compare land mass, israel, the only jewish state, created so jewish people could feel safe after 6 million were executed for their beliefs, is the size of Wales!

thats it. in the whole world. Look at the area of Arab land, that surrounds. surrounded on all sides by before who have hated them and tried to wipe them out for thousands of years, long before this land ever "belonged" to them.

Why do people think that the arabs want peace with israel and israel doesnt want it.

I think their actions are based on the fact that they will not be shown to be a pushover as they need to show strength given their surroundings.

the leader of Iran had no qualms in saying that he wanted israel wiped off the face of the planet, what makes you think they should relax and feel safe about anything?

I don't believe there are nut jobs in charge of israel, just people who are doing their best to fight a massive battle that will probably never end.

How do you make peace with a vastly larger group of people who on the whole want you dead? the answer is you can't, you can do nothing and end up dead or you can stand up for yourself for as long as you can.

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

none of that makes any sense whatsoever.

also Adam, you cannot help but question why the entire western world wont hear a bad word said about Isreal

Adam M

it doesnt make sense for a reason, the point is the massacres predate the land issues that started in 1967.

the point is, the arabs were killing the jews long before there was any land to fight over.

and I don't believe for a second that israel can do no wrong in the eys of the west. I think the west just like the fact that they are the only entirely fairly elected democracy in the middle east, and thats what the west is all about.
Democracy.

Reality

It's probably got more to do with the fact the West put them there or that the West hates Muslims more than it does Jews.

But I suspect there isn't much in it .

Peanuts

iTrader: (15)

my bad, must read context

hhmm, I read that Hezbollah are funded by the Syrians and the Iranians? and in G Bush's last speech he singled them out for a "special" mention.
Holy **** batman

Hoppy

Adam, spot on mate

Suresh

Interesting, but care to name your source for that particular yarn?


Brendan : well said mate! Attacking civilians to bring about political change is called terrorism in most parts of the world.....

Reality

You can only be a terrorist if you are non-christian - where did you people get your educations

Rabid

I can't help hoping that the Saudis, Iranians, Russians et al finally get pissed off with yet more Israeli crimes and bomb their cities to dust and rid the world of this vicious, criminal state.
That isn't an anti-semitic statement by the way, I have nothing against jews or their right to exist, I just despise the zionist, extremist, terror state of Israel.

The only problem I see with that wish is that the Israelis would probably go nuclear and start WWIII.

Brendan Hughes

From the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (which certain countries haven't signed up to, I wonder why), a War Crime includes:

(b) Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:
(i) Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against
individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;
(ii) Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;
...
(iv) Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
(v) Attacking or bombarding, by whatever means, towns, villages, dwellings or
buildings which are undefended and which are not military objectives;

Now I know there's plenty of legal loopholes involved (definition of international armed conflict etc), but a country which tries to claim the moral high ground will not help itself when seen to be doing that.

Hoppy

Rabid, the only thing that unites the Arab states is their hatred of Israel. Without Israel, the Middle East would still be a cause of major conflict (and source of oil). They cannot agree even amongst themsleves.

You're probably right about the nuclear bit

Richard.

Hoppy

Brendan, that's just meaningless rhetoric. It may be international law, but how any act of 'war' can be determined as legal or illegal is beyond me. War is ghastly, by any measure.

It is only ever right or wrong, depending on which side you are on. Or in the case of those in a neutral position, which side is less wrong than the other. Sorry, but that's my muddy definition. It's the best I can come up with.

Looking at recent wars like Bosnea, Africa (various), Afghanistan, Iraq, Middle East, and let's throw Northern Ireland in for good measure, which of these conflicts was legal and has been concluded for the greater good of the majority?

Richard.

Flatcapdriver

The reason oil is traded in dollars is a historical legacy due to the first oil trading exchange being in the US.

Suresh

Are any of the staunch defenders of Israel here Jewish, per chance?
I think we should be told!

Hoppy

I'm not Jewish. Pure Brit.

I am not a 'staunch defender' of either side but I have lived in Lebanon and am certain that the majority only want peace and are happy to co-exist with Israel. My brother is also pure Brit, but lives in Israel with his Jewish wife. They also want peace.

But under current circumstances, peaceful co-existance is clearly not possible.

However, the present conflict was prompted, as usual, by radical Palestinians, who knew full well what the conseqeunces would be. They don't seem to care for the plight of their people any more than Israel does.

Israel is tired of the constant sniping and suicide bombings of their civilian people. It's been going on for decades. They are out to change the game this time. They cannot get directly to the relative handful of armed extremists - they are too well hidden within the civilian community - so they are attacking the country's fundamental infrastructure in the hope that the peace-seeking Lebanese majority will force the radicals to call it off. The Lebanese government seems powerless, and Syria and Iran are fuelling the fires - from a comfortable distance, it must be noted.

No sign of a cease-fire yet. How much pain must the peace-seeking majority take before the radicals see the light? That is why the US is giving Israel time, and the Palestinain hot-heads the opportunity to realise that Israel is not going away. Ever. Disband, disarm, live with it. Or live in an eternal hell-hole. Tragically, some people seem to prefer the latter and only rejection from within has any chance of changing that. Albeit temporarily

Richard.

andrewdelvard

Without wishing to get involved in this debate and the never ending spiral of quotes and thoughts of people who've never visited either Lebanon or Israel, I looked at the above quoted sentence, felt offended, so would like to say I'm pure Brit (whatever that may be) and Jewish.


Andy.