To all tuners 400bhp/400ltb out os the new spec
09 August 2006, 11:02 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by Hol
I think it equates to a rough 35bhp to cover the weight increase of the Newer car, as a rule of thumb.
As well as a chassis that has over 100% increase in torsional stiffness.
This would more that eat up a 35bhp difference.
Classic can be more agile due to less weight, but handling and grip just are not as good.
09 August 2006, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by juggers
If i went for a bigger turbo where abouts will the boost kick in?
4500rpm?
4500rpm?
Big turbo does not necessarily mean a high boost threshold. There are 400bhp turbos that will be producing very usable boost from 3,000 rpm.
Rannoch
09 August 2006, 11:17 PM
#34
My current spec reaches 1bar at about 2500rpm and hits full boost (1.7 peak) at 3100rpm. For it's current stage of conversion I didnt want to sacrifice this excellent spool up, for the addition of a little bit extra peak power.
Hol,
Im not able to make Trax.
Regards,
Shaun.
Hol,
Im not able to make Trax.
Regards,
Shaun.
09 August 2006, 11:24 PM
#35
Originally Posted by webmaster
My current spec reaches 1bar at about 2500rpm and hits full boost (1.7 peak) at 3100rpm. For it's current stage of conversion I didnt want to sacrifice this excellent spool up, for the addition of a little bit extra peak power.
Hol,
Im not able to make Trax.
Regards,
Shaun.
Hol,
Im not able to make Trax.
Regards,
Shaun.
I dont want a turbo that will kick in by the time i've retierd
Any suggestions on which turbo's to go for apart from the oen mentioned earlier?
Last edited by juggers; 09 August 2006 at 11:30 PM.
09 August 2006, 11:35 PM
#36
My Hybrid actually bettered the standard twin scroll turbo (for spool up), which in all honesty is a very very good turbo for what it promises to do.
If you mooch around other comparisons of hyrbid twin scroll's on a 2ltr, I doubt you would find better for a twin scroll.
All importantly..... this hybrid gets rid of the dreadded compressor surge associated with running higher low down boost on a twin scroll turbo (on a 2ltr) and also increased midrange and helps at the top end to boot. The bigger you go from this point will mean sacrificing lowdown response, for slightly more top end...... as said, for this level of tune, this was not what was wanted.
I know of a certain *other* tuner modified car running at 420bhp on a single scroll turbo (but newage), which my car is quicker (based on stats that the other car has acheived 1/4m and 0-100mph time) - even though I fully appreciate mine is lighter than most newages.
Unfortunately too many people concentrate just on pure numbers...... there is more to it then that.
I hope you have fun with which ever solution you choose.
Regards,
Shaun.
If you mooch around other comparisons of hyrbid twin scroll's on a 2ltr, I doubt you would find better for a twin scroll.
All importantly..... this hybrid gets rid of the dreadded compressor surge associated with running higher low down boost on a twin scroll turbo (on a 2ltr) and also increased midrange and helps at the top end to boot. The bigger you go from this point will mean sacrificing lowdown response, for slightly more top end...... as said, for this level of tune, this was not what was wanted.
I know of a certain *other* tuner modified car running at 420bhp on a single scroll turbo (but newage), which my car is quicker (based on stats that the other car has acheived 1/4m and 0-100mph time) - even though I fully appreciate mine is lighter than most newages.
Unfortunately too many people concentrate just on pure numbers...... there is more to it then that.
I hope you have fun with which ever solution you choose.
Regards,
Shaun.
09 August 2006, 11:48 PM
#37
Originally Posted by webmaster
My Hybrid actually bettered the standard twin scroll turbo (for spool up), which in all honesty is a very very good turbo for what it promises to do.
If you mooch around other comparisons of hyrbid twin scroll's on a 2ltr, I doubt you would find better for a twin scroll.
All importantly..... this hybrid gets rid of the dreadded compressor surge associated with running higher low down boost on a twin scroll turbo (on a 2ltr) and also increased midrange and helps at the top end to boot. The bigger you go from this point will mean sacrificing lowdown response, for slightly more top end...... as said, for this level of tune, this was not what was wanted.
I know of a certain *other* tuner modified car running at 420bhp on a single scroll turbo (but newage), which my car is quicker (based on stats that the other car has acheived 1/4m and 0-100mph time) - even though I fully appreciate mine is lighter than most newages.
Unfortunately too many people concentrate just on pure numbers...... there is more to it then that.
I hope you have fun with which ever solution you choose.
Regards,
Shaun.
If you mooch around other comparisons of hyrbid twin scroll's on a 2ltr, I doubt you would find better for a twin scroll.
All importantly..... this hybrid gets rid of the dreadded compressor surge associated with running higher low down boost on a twin scroll turbo (on a 2ltr) and also increased midrange and helps at the top end to boot. The bigger you go from this point will mean sacrificing lowdown response, for slightly more top end...... as said, for this level of tune, this was not what was wanted.
I know of a certain *other* tuner modified car running at 420bhp on a single scroll turbo (but newage), which my car is quicker (based on stats that the other car has acheived 1/4m and 0-100mph time) - even though I fully appreciate mine is lighter than most newages.
Unfortunately too many people concentrate just on pure numbers...... there is more to it then that.
I hope you have fun with which ever solution you choose.
Regards,
Shaun.
What exactely is a hybrid?
Is this hybrid a better turbo then the one on the s204?
09 August 2006, 11:50 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by webmaster
My Hybrid actually bettered the standard twin scroll turbo (for spool up), which in all honesty is a very very good turbo for what it promises to do.
If you mooch around other comparisons of hyrbid twin scroll's on a 2ltr, I doubt you would find better for a twin scroll.
All importantly..... this hybrid gets rid of the dreadded compressor surge associated with running higher low down boost on a twin scroll turbo (on a 2ltr) and also increased midrange and helps at the top end to boot. The bigger you go from this point will mean sacrificing lowdown response, for slightly more top end...... as said, for this level of tune, this was not what was wanted.
I know of a certain *other* tuner modified car running at 420bhp on a single scroll turbo (but newage), which my car is quicker (based on stats that the other car has acheived 1/4m and 0-100mph time) - even though I fully appreciate mine is lighter than most newages.
Unfortunately too many people concentrate just on pure numbers...... there is more to it then that.
I hope you have fun with which ever solution you choose.
Regards,
Shaun.
If you mooch around other comparisons of hyrbid twin scroll's on a 2ltr, I doubt you would find better for a twin scroll.
All importantly..... this hybrid gets rid of the dreadded compressor surge associated with running higher low down boost on a twin scroll turbo (on a 2ltr) and also increased midrange and helps at the top end to boot. The bigger you go from this point will mean sacrificing lowdown response, for slightly more top end...... as said, for this level of tune, this was not what was wanted.
I know of a certain *other* tuner modified car running at 420bhp on a single scroll turbo (but newage), which my car is quicker (based on stats that the other car has acheived 1/4m and 0-100mph time) - even though I fully appreciate mine is lighter than most newages.
Unfortunately too many people concentrate just on pure numbers...... there is more to it then that.
I hope you have fun with which ever solution you choose.
Regards,
Shaun.
Quick theoretical question, given the 2.5lt block and the stronger internals, how far do you think you can take a T25 power-wise, without having to sacrifice driveability
Cheers
martin
Last edited by Martin2005; 10 August 2006 at 10:26 AM.
10 August 2006, 12:14 AM
#39
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Originally Posted by juggers
Whats the difference between the roller bearing twinscroll and a hybrid?
What exactely is a hybrid?
Is this hybrid a better turbo then the one on the s204?
What exactely is a hybrid?
Is this hybrid a better turbo then the one on the s204?
Think of it as a custom turbo in some ways. Someone on here will no doubt give a better and more in depth explanation than I have. Im tired and can't be bothered to think or type anymore
10 August 2006, 08:54 AM
#40
Originally Posted by Hol
I think it equates to a rough 35bhp to cover the weight increase of the Newer car, as a rule of thumb.
Originally Posted by Rannoch
Additional factors for a Spec C (like Shaun and myself) would be lighter by around 90kgs, another 20mm wider rubber than a Classic and far superior brakes (as standard).
As well as a chassis that has over 100% increase in torsional stiffness.
This would more that eat up a 35bhp difference.
Classic can be more agile due to less weight, but handling and grip just are not as good.
As well as a chassis that has over 100% increase in torsional stiffness.
This would more that eat up a 35bhp difference.
Classic can be more agile due to less weight, but handling and grip just are not as good.
In my simplistic world
Of course that does not include other variables like the 'Chaos theory' or the number of yellow jelly beans youi have eaten before turning the key.
Bob,
YHM.
10 August 2006, 09:09 AM
#41
Juggers,
A hybrid turbo is basically a modified standard turbo, which can utilise parts from other turbo's as well as having modifications done to the turbo itself (blades, porting etc etc).
Based on the information I have attained against some turbo's on a like for like overall conversion, my hybrid does perform better than a VF42 (from the S204)..... the biggest noticeable difference is the lowdown torque and power difference between the two (mine is much more).
Regards,
Shaun.
A hybrid turbo is basically a modified standard turbo, which can utilise parts from other turbo's as well as having modifications done to the turbo itself (blades, porting etc etc).
Based on the information I have attained against some turbo's on a like for like overall conversion, my hybrid does perform better than a VF42 (from the S204)..... the biggest noticeable difference is the lowdown torque and power difference between the two (mine is much more).
Regards,
Shaun.
10 August 2006, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Hol
[/I]
I do agree that the chassis on the newage cars are superior, but at roughly 10% heavier, I would expect 10% more power to deliver the same power to weight ratio as the lighter car. Like-for-like.
In my simplistic world
Of course that does not include other variables like the 'Chaos theory' or the number of yellow jelly beans youi have eaten before turning the key.
Bob,
YHM.
I do agree that the chassis on the newage cars are superior, but at roughly 10% heavier, I would expect 10% more power to deliver the same power to weight ratio as the lighter car. Like-for-like.
In my simplistic world
Of course that does not include other variables like the 'Chaos theory' or the number of yellow jelly beans youi have eaten before turning the key.
Bob,
YHM.
10 August 2006, 11:23 AM
#43
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Just to add juggers before I bought mine I went down the bigger turbo,injector route etc chasing r/r figures on my last impreza and to be honest I was flogging a dead horse cos the further I went higher the more it was costing for little gain,I haven't seen Shauns update yet of his continued project yet and can't comment on that but I am sure there will have been a lot of testing etc,from my own experiance 350/350 ish will give you one hell of a quick point to point car with reliability money would be better spent on the chassis/brakes in my honest opinion.Best of luck on your quest
10 August 2006, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by webmaster
My current spec reaches 1bar at about 2500rpm and hits full boost (1.7 peak) at 3100rpm.
lOOk into the eyes, not around the eyes, 3-2-1, you're under.
"Gaz, You have a lovely STi, it is one of your dream cars. You do not want nor need a Spec C, even with the fantastic spooling etc etc."
3-2-1 you're back in the room.
10 August 2006, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by webmaster
Juggers,
A hybrid turbo is basically a modified standard turbo, which can utilise parts from other turbo's as well as having modifications done to the turbo itself (blades, porting etc etc).
Based on the information I have attained against some turbo's on a like for like overall conversion, my hybrid does perform better than a VF42 (from the S204)..... the biggest noticeable difference is the lowdown torque and power difference between the two (mine is much more).
Regards,
Shaun.
A hybrid turbo is basically a modified standard turbo, which can utilise parts from other turbo's as well as having modifications done to the turbo itself (blades, porting etc etc).
Based on the information I have attained against some turbo's on a like for like overall conversion, my hybrid does perform better than a VF42 (from the S204)..... the biggest noticeable difference is the lowdown torque and power difference between the two (mine is much more).
Regards,
Shaun.
(As i'm turbo shopping at the minute, current runners are 18gv20g)
10 August 2006, 11:53 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by GazTheHat
Sorry for complete ignorance, but can this setup go on an EU Newage? Or are the (hybrid) twin scrolls for JDM only?
(As i'm turbo shopping at the minute, current runners are 18gv20g)
(As i'm turbo shopping at the minute, current runners are 18gv20g)
10 August 2006, 11:54 AM
#47
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Hol, I think you might need to revise your power targets for the 2.0 engine if you want to keep really good spool.
Turbo Dynamics provided Powerstation with a new hybrid turbo for Shaun’s car specifically to improve mid range response with out sacrificing low down torque. They used the latest 5 blade high response compressor wheel with a modified cover (instead of the standard 6 blade design) to improve the lowdown spool. They then modified the turbo shaft with cut-back blades to allow the turbo to breathe more easily at higher RPM. It was all about extending the power band not hunting for top end numbers.
Martin, the Type-25 turbo is completely different as it involves modifying the exhaust housing to except a larger Garrett Ball Bearing core and compressor. We had tried MANY different combination in our original Type-25 and found this to be the best compremise between having no lag with peak torque just over 3,000rpm and peak power around 6,000rpm. We also have a version which has a larger compressor housing, wheel and ported shroud. We’ve never actually got round to fitting either one to the 2.0 cars but will do soon.
Hope that makes things a little clearer.
Iain
Turbo Dynamics provided Powerstation with a new hybrid turbo for Shaun’s car specifically to improve mid range response with out sacrificing low down torque. They used the latest 5 blade high response compressor wheel with a modified cover (instead of the standard 6 blade design) to improve the lowdown spool. They then modified the turbo shaft with cut-back blades to allow the turbo to breathe more easily at higher RPM. It was all about extending the power band not hunting for top end numbers.
Martin, the Type-25 turbo is completely different as it involves modifying the exhaust housing to except a larger Garrett Ball Bearing core and compressor. We had tried MANY different combination in our original Type-25 and found this to be the best compremise between having no lag with peak torque just over 3,000rpm and peak power around 6,000rpm. We also have a version which has a larger compressor housing, wheel and ported shroud. We’ve never actually got round to fitting either one to the 2.0 cars but will do soon.
Hope that makes things a little clearer.
Iain
10 August 2006, 04:01 PM
#48
Gussy,
Agreed...... you should never chase bhp figures just for the sake of chasing.
My current stage of modifications are not mega bhp (by todays standards), but I am informed (after many comments by good drivers with experience) by feedback (since I am still at an early stage of driving experience it's hard for me to quantify this, although I have been out in my car as a passenger when a qualified driver has bee in control) that my car as a package is very very very quick as an A to B road and is more than adequate (if driven properly) to be competitive on track. Obviously we are talking about this as a complete car, and on the handling side more has been spent on that then the engine.
I am looking at one final stage of modification..... but this is probably not such a modification but a whole fresh start. lol More on this in the future though.
In the meantime, I will endeavour to produce the rest of the articles..... and yes your right, the amount of time that has been spent on testing has been huge. I hope you guys find the results and data interesting.
gaz the hat,
As per white's response to your question.
Martin,
You would need to speak to Litchfield / Powerstation on that, as I have not done any work with a larger engine........... yet.
Regards,
Shaun.
Agreed...... you should never chase bhp figures just for the sake of chasing.
My current stage of modifications are not mega bhp (by todays standards), but I am informed (after many comments by good drivers with experience) by feedback (since I am still at an early stage of driving experience it's hard for me to quantify this, although I have been out in my car as a passenger when a qualified driver has bee in control) that my car as a package is very very very quick as an A to B road and is more than adequate (if driven properly) to be competitive on track. Obviously we are talking about this as a complete car, and on the handling side more has been spent on that then the engine.
I am looking at one final stage of modification..... but this is probably not such a modification but a whole fresh start. lol More on this in the future though.
In the meantime, I will endeavour to produce the rest of the articles..... and yes your right, the amount of time that has been spent on testing has been huge. I hope you guys find the results and data interesting.
gaz the hat,
As per white's response to your question.
Martin,
You would need to speak to Litchfield / Powerstation on that, as I have not done any work with a larger engine........... yet.
Regards,
Shaun.
10 August 2006, 04:15 PM
#49
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Shaun, one this that would be interesting is to see how your car performed with all the interior back in place. I realise that sounds odd, but my car behaves fairly differently, given that 99% of the people reading this probably have theirs in place all the time!
(myself and you arent included in that number)
The reason i say that is that the figures that you quote, for example the 1/4 time could be a little misrepresentative as your car will be lighter than a stock spec C. Do you agree?
(myself and you arent included in that number)
The reason i say that is that the figures that you quote, for example the 1/4 time could be a little misrepresentative as your car will be lighter than a stock spec C. Do you agree?
10 August 2006, 06:11 PM
#52
Neil,
A stock Spec C weighs 20kg's more than my car does now. Which means if you had an average weight bloke in it (remember I weigh just over 17stone), it doesnt make a fat lot of difference. Ok... it all helps (a bit), but not earth shattering. Also I am pretty sure I can better that 1/4m time done a TOTB, so it may make the point even more concerning how quick the car can be.
As regards to a FMIC....
My newage STi standard TMIC is absolutely fine and dandy at my power level and it will be pushed a fair bit more soon. (I know for a fact that I can get well over 400bhp with no problems on my top mount - remember test, test and test ) For this power level (and some more), save your money and spend it on something else imo (if your using a STI Newage TMIC).
Any pipe lengthening (as regards to fitting a FMIC on a normal position manifold) will decrease response..... and for this level of tune for what I wanted is a no no for me on this car.
Regards,
Shaun.
A stock Spec C weighs 20kg's more than my car does now. Which means if you had an average weight bloke in it (remember I weigh just over 17stone), it doesnt make a fat lot of difference.
Ok... it all helps (a bit), but not earth shattering. Also I am pretty sure I can better that 1/4m time done a TOTB, so it may make the point even more concerning how quick the car can be.As regards to a FMIC....
My newage STi standard TMIC is absolutely fine and dandy at my power level and it will be pushed a fair bit more soon.
(I know for a fact that I can get well over 400bhp with no problems on my top mount - remember test, test and test ) For this power level (and some more), save your money and spend it on something else imo (if your using a STI Newage TMIC). Any pipe lengthening (as regards to fitting a FMIC on a normal position manifold) will decrease response..... and for this level of tune for what I wanted is a no no for me on this car.
Regards,
Shaun.
10 August 2006, 06:24 PM
#53
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Originally Posted by webmaster
A stock Spec C weighs 20kg's more than my car does now.
If i do all that then i strip about 90kgs out of mine in total? Having said that im not sure how much my mods actually put back on to the car....really need to get to a weighbridge!
10 August 2006, 06:46 PM
#54
LOL
Again.... test, test and test.
My car has been on calibrated scales and a weighbridge and the car came out at 1330kg's.
The interior on a Spec C dont weigh a fat lot (the back seats you can hold with both parts by two fingers... there is nothing to them)..... and please remember whilst the seats are lighter they are not THAT light. They are not carbon and are LARGER seats then normal and I am also using the standard oem runners, sliders and have steel side mounts.
In fact there is so little weight to the interior that I have removed (which is essence was only the door cards, back seats, parcel shelf and other small plastic items - discount the seats as the weight advantage is quite small), I will probably be sticking the trim back in (apart from the front seats) at the end of this season.
Perhaps the figures are slightly misguided, as I have 18" rims, huuuge AP brakes and a STi spoiler on (which would not be on a standard car). But then my wheels / brakes are arguably not fair off the weight of the standard units as they are both manufactured to be fairly light weight..... as opposed to OE stuff. I have also saved weight with my suspensionn (yep I weighed these as well).... so in reality I would expect all but a few kg's to be offset.
Regards,
Shaun.
Again.... test, test and test.
My car has been on calibrated scales and a weighbridge and the car came out at 1330kg's.
The interior on a Spec C dont weigh a fat lot (the back seats you can hold with both parts by two fingers... there is nothing to them)..... and please remember whilst the seats are lighter they are not THAT light. They are not carbon and are LARGER seats then normal and I am also using the standard oem runners, sliders and have steel side mounts.
In fact there is so little weight to the interior that I have removed (which is essence was only the door cards, back seats, parcel shelf and other small plastic items - discount the seats as the weight advantage is quite small), I will probably be sticking the trim back in (apart from the front seats) at the end of this season.
Perhaps the figures are slightly misguided, as I have 18" rims, huuuge AP brakes and a STi spoiler on (which would not be on a standard car). But then my wheels / brakes are arguably not fair off the weight of the standard units as they are both manufactured to be fairly light weight..... as opposed to OE stuff. I have also saved weight with my suspensionn (yep I weighed these as well).... so in reality I would expect all but a few kg's to be offset.
Regards,
Shaun.
10 August 2006, 07:13 PM
#56
Originally Posted by LitchfieldImports
Hol, I think you might need to revise your power targets for the 2.0 engine if you want to keep really good spool.
Originally Posted by LitchfieldImports
Turbo Dynamics provided Powerstation with a new hybrid turbo for Shaun’s car specifically to improve mid range response with out sacrificing low down torque. They used the latest 5 blade high response compressor wheel with a modified cover (instead of the standard 6 blade design) to improve the lowdown spool. They then modified the turbo shaft with cut-back blades to allow the turbo to breathe more easily at higher RPM. It was all about extending the power band not hunting for top end numbers.
That question almost sounds like I know what im talking about!
10 August 2006, 08:02 PM
#59
I have a hybrid twin scroll turbo on my car and although the car is good to drive it puts the turbo at its limit once tuned so i personally think it would be cheaper and easier to find a direct fit subaru turbo and swap all the pipes as needed !!!! i had to find out what the hybrid twin scroll was like before moving on !! had i known what i known now i wouldnt of bothered with it and would of just put a big turbo on 1st