jack straw's comments, what's the problem?
07 October 2006, 01:27 PM
#91
It's just not on, can't you see it's the will of God that we do what 'they' want us to, after all 'the religion that cannot be criticized' is the one and only true religion endorsed by God, it MUST be true 'cos it said so in this 'book' that was 'written'.... ffs
07 October 2006, 01:30 PM
#92
Originally Posted by Turbohot
Faith will always be respected, juggers. Veil matter is about the reasonability of certain trends related to the faith. Surely, some flexibility can be offered in favour of what living and breathing fellow human beings want, rather than a faith to be followed blindly.
IMO.
IMO.
As far as flexibility is concerned we are talking about a country that has gone to war with afganistan and iraq to protect ones freedom
Last edited by juggers; 07 October 2006 at 01:39 PM.
07 October 2006, 01:30 PM
#93
Originally Posted by DCI Gene Hunt
The small percentage taking offence are always the extremists looking to cause a ****storm over anything.... they provoke trouble by not being prepared to except any reality other than their twisted view of the world...
This is a attempt at a personal attack on Jack Straw over his rights to free speech and ultimately being able to criticise another stupid muslim practise!
This is a attempt at a personal attack on Jack Straw over his rights to free speech and ultimately being able to criticise another stupid muslim practise!
07 October 2006, 01:32 PM
#94
Originally Posted by Hanslow
Wonder if it would be alright for us all to start wearing balaclavas into the banks....
Or maybe it should just become the next fashion statement. Might be quite handy on a speed camera photo
Or maybe it should just become the next fashion statement. Might be quite handy on a speed camera photo
07 October 2006, 01:38 PM
#95
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Originally Posted by juggers
The vail does not make her blind my friend,unfortunately it's you lot who's blind as you cant see past the veil
As far as flexibility is concerned we are talking about a country that has gone to war with afganistan and iraq to protects one freedom
So as muslims are expmt from our
As far as flexibility is concerned we are talking about a country that has gone to war with afganistan and iraq to protects one freedom
So as muslims are expmt from our
Please enlighten us with the insight then, mate.What is past that veil?
07 October 2006, 01:45 PM
#96
Originally Posted by Turbohot
Let's put wars aside.
Please enlighten us with the insight then, mate.What is past that veil?
Please enlighten us with the insight then, mate.What is past that veil?
No but seriously ones modesty and passion for her religion. what gives any state the rite to take that away from someone?
P s you cant take war out of anything this has everything to do with war and politics tiz just a shame the thick ones cant see it..........or they do,but are to ignorant to comprehend ones faith
07 October 2006, 01:47 PM
#97
I don't see why so many of you have an issue with our woman wearing veils?
Does it really have that much of an impact on your life?
Will you condone the banning of headscarf's for nuns....................ummm i think note.
Does it really have that much of an impact on your life?
Will you condone the banning of headscarf's for nuns....................ummm i think note.
07 October 2006, 01:52 PM
#98
Originally Posted by Stalked!
^^^
When we go to thier countries, we have to obey their rules, so why can't they obey our rules when they come here
S!
When we go to thier countries, we have to obey their rules, so why can't they obey our rules when they come here
S!
07 October 2006, 01:55 PM
#99
Originally Posted by juggers
I don't see why so many of you have an issue with our woman wearing veils?
Does it really have that much of an impact on your life?
Will you condone the banning of headscarf's for nuns....................ummm i think note.
Does it really have that much of an impact on your life?
Will you condone the banning of headscarf's for nuns....................ummm i think note.
07 October 2006, 01:59 PM
#100
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Originally Posted by juggers
First of all a face
No but seriously ones modesty and passion for her religion. what gives any state the rite to take that away from someone?
No but seriously ones modesty and passion for her religion. what gives any state the rite to take that away from someone?
Muslim women need to look beyond that and understand the reasonability of Straw's comment.
I wish some Muslim women can come forward on the debate here and put their views forward.
No objection on religious beliefs etc, jugger. I just can not justify the need for a veil at all.
07 October 2006, 02:01 PM
#101
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Originally Posted by juggers
First of all a face
No but seriously ones modesty and passion for her religion. what gives any state the rite to take that away from someone?
P s you cant take war out of anything this has everything to do with war and politics tiz just a shame the thick ones cant see it..........or they do,but are to ignorant to comprehend ones faith
No but seriously ones modesty and passion for her religion. what gives any state the rite to take that away from someone?
P s you cant take war out of anything this has everything to do with war and politics tiz just a shame the thick ones cant see it..........or they do,but are to ignorant to comprehend ones faith
This state isn't taking away any modesty or passion from a religion. I think you are trying to make a point about freedom of expression, and the right of being able to follow a particular religion without prejustice, am I right?
If indeed I am right, I find it quite ironic, especially so in light of previous regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention many states in the present Middle East.
The state is a reflection of the people within in it as any government here is directly elected in free and fair general elections. As also stated above, we are a increasingly secular nation, and would find any religion that is so separatist and thin skinned to be quite alien to the staus quo.
Last edited by scoobynutta555; 07 October 2006 at 02:04 PM.
07 October 2006, 02:05 PM
#102
Originally Posted by matty01
I don't have a problem with it , i have a problem with muslims having a problem with us having an opinion on your religion , is your/their faith so week that it cannot sustain any comments/opinions other than support?
Weak ha ha,Its quite simple muslism have a lot of respect and love for our religion.
I am sure you have somthing in your life that would die for,protect and fight for wife children.
Us muslims are passionate about our religion.
And before you go on about osma and all that crap.............9 11 WAS ORCHESTRATED BY THE US GOVERMENT SIMPLE AS.
Last edited by juggers; 07 October 2006 at 03:22 PM.
07 October 2006, 02:12 PM
#104
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Originally Posted by juggers
Us muslims are passionate about our religion.
But you muslims are on the UK land. This is not a muslim land. You must respect the UK peeps' views and demands too.
You can have double Purdah in your own countries for women. Here, it's not on.
( Jack Straw told me to say that
)
07 October 2006, 02:15 PM
#105
Originally Posted by scoobynutta555
You can dress modestly without the wearing of a veil or be completely covered from top to toe. As I have stated above, please tell me where in the Qur'an where it says that a womans face has to be covered. The closest is that she should cast down her looks.
This state isn't taking away any modesty or passion from a religion. I think you are trying to make a point about freedom of expression, and the right of being able to follow a particular religion without prejustice, am I right?
If indeed I am right, I find it quite ironic, especially so in light of previous regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention many states in the present Middle East.
The state is a reflection of the people within in it as any government here is directly elected in free and fair general elections. As also stated above, we are a increasingly secular nation, and would find any religion that is so separatist and thin skinned to be quite alien to the staus quo.
This state isn't taking away any modesty or passion from a religion. I think you are trying to make a point about freedom of expression, and the right of being able to follow a particular religion without prejustice, am I right?
If indeed I am right, I find it quite ironic, especially so in light of previous regimes in Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention many states in the present Middle East.
The state is a reflection of the people within in it as any government here is directly elected in free and fair general elections. As also stated above, we are a increasingly secular nation, and would find any religion that is so separatist and thin skinned to be quite alien to the staus quo.
Sorry mate No.
England is having a giggle with muslims and this is the view of every muslim apart from the cocnut ones.
I dont even hang around with other muslims i was bought up on a council estate and being the only asian family on there all my mates are white lads.
Infact one of them has converted to islam and even he thinks the state is taking the ****.
Surat 24.AN-NUR part 18 verse 31
Plz dont tell me what the quran does and does'nt say
07 October 2006, 02:17 PM
#106
Originally Posted by juggers
First of all i did'nt appreciate "1.5 billion *******"
Weak ha ha,Its quite simple muslism have a lot of respect and love for our religion.
I am sure you have somthing in your life that would die for,protect and fight for wife children.
Us muslims are passionate about our religion.
And before you go on about osma and all that crap.............9 11 WAS ORCHASTRATED BY THE US GOVERMENT SIMPLE AS.
Weak ha ha,Its quite simple muslism have a lot of respect and love for our religion.
I am sure you have somthing in your life that would die for,protect and fight for wife children.
Us muslims are passionate about our religion.
And before you go on about osma and all that crap.............9 11 WAS ORCHASTRATED BY THE US GOVERMENT SIMPLE AS.
yeah a bit too passionate for my liking, hiltler was passionate too but it didn't make him right did it?
as for 9/11 , well you would say that would'nt you
If you want to be a GOOD muslim then all well and good and you'll get no critisizm from me but don't expect us to bend over backwards to acomodate your headlong belief in a book,god needs no structure for belief needs no time of prayer , god is NOT the exclusive endorser of your religion to the exclusion of all others to believe that will only lead to heartache and the end of islam
07 October 2006, 02:19 PM
#107
Originally Posted by WHEELSHOP0_0
Can I ask an honest question, and if you have read this post you will believe me.
What specifically is "out of order" and what would you like us to think "think out of the box" about?
What specifically is "out of order" and what would you like us to think "think out of the box" about?
using islam and muslims as a scapegoat for every political backlash.
Just look how it's got you all fired up lol.
It does'nt take an idiot to see what straw is doing.
07 October 2006, 02:23 PM
#109
Originally Posted by matty01
ok ******* was a bit strong as i'm sure the vast majority of muslims are nice people but you do yourselves and your religion a disservice by not weeding out the radical fundamentalists they will be the downfall of islam/the start of ww3 ....
yeah a bit too passionate for my liking, hiltler was passionate too but it didn't make him right did it?
as for 9/11 , well you would say that would'nt you
If you want to be a GOOD muslim then all well and good and you'll get no critisizm from me but don't expect us to bend over backwards to acomodate your headlong belief in a book,god needs no structure for belief needs no time of prayer , god is NOT the exclusive endorser of your religion to the exclusion of all others to believe that will only lead to heartache and the end of islam
yeah a bit too passionate for my liking, hiltler was passionate too but it didn't make him right did it?
as for 9/11 , well you would say that would'nt you
If you want to be a GOOD muslim then all well and good and you'll get no critisizm from me but don't expect us to bend over backwards to acomodate your headlong belief in a book,god needs no structure for belief needs no time of prayer , god is NOT the exclusive endorser of your religion to the exclusion of all others to believe that will only lead to heartache and the end of islam
Sorry mate but i think that is Bollocks.Do you even know any muslims?
I have these conversations everyday you are all blinded by the proparganda etc.
Plz read up on 911 it dont take a genius to work it out
.
07 October 2006, 02:26 PM
#110
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Originally Posted by juggers
Surat 24.AN-NUR part 18 verse 31
Plz dont tell me what the quran does and does'nt say
Plz dont tell me what the quran does and does'nt say
And you still have not showed me where in the Qur'an it says that women should cover their faces, 24-31 does not display this fact at all.
In any case, most Muslims over here would be a coconut over a pinapple which is what you are, prickly on the outside and yellow on the inside.
07 October 2006, 02:34 PM
#111
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Hello all
Yes Allaah did create all thinks and he made men and women with free will. He gave us all generally good forms and gives us guidelines to be successful in this life and the hereafter this is what I believe...that applies to men and women. Men who are blessed with nice physiques are required to cover them as the women are required to cover them. If I was to ask a simple question if a beautiful woman was to walk into a room partly dressed ie exposing a large amount of her body which man would not look at her and judge her on the basis of her body and beauty rather than her intelligence, character, manners, achievements, sacrifices. The way women are treated in this society is shocking all based on looks and how much she is willing to bare just look at the popularity of 'lads mags' and **** these day. Muslim women when allowed to establish covering on their own free will are not oppressed or abused rather they are set free of the pressures and expectations of society which want her to be like a commodity and are treated like pieces of meat. NO doubt I do not mean in every single situation or case but in many cases.
The Quraan is not the only source of Islaam we also have the Sunnah (Recorded traditions of the Prophet Muhammad which consists of what he did, said, silently approved of and did not do) and the understanding of the first three generations of Muslims which our Prophet referred to as the best of the Muslims who had the best understanding of Islaam.
For those of you who have not spoken to a Muslim lady with a veil you cannot really fairly comment on what it would be like. Like I mentioned before my wife will get into many nice conversations with people when out expecially when people see my 6 month old son and they see her expressions from her body movement, her eyes and many times her laughter and tone of voice.
The Afgan women were forced to wear the veil but also some were not...women were explained the way with regards to it and chose from free will to wear it...when the Muslims with the help of the US and UK went to fight the Russian many were called to the Islaam of explanation and choice and some accepted. An action done for someone other than Allaah whether forced or otherwise is not accepted so it defeats the whole purpose. The Taliban are filthy extremist ignoramuses who need to be corrected or destroyed they cause nothing but pain and suffering and they gave refuge to the dog Bin Laabin!
Modesty is down to your own interpretation in Islaam we have clear guidelines for everything so we can achieve the best reward for our efforts as our Lord wants to carry out those actions. 'Jordans' idea of modesty is certainly different to the Queens. The same applies to the actions of prayer, fasting, Hajj, men growing the beard etc.
I hope that helps...by the way thanks for the reasonable questions.
Yes Allaah did create all thinks and he made men and women with free will. He gave us all generally good forms and gives us guidelines to be successful in this life and the hereafter this is what I believe...that applies to men and women. Men who are blessed with nice physiques are required to cover them as the women are required to cover them. If I was to ask a simple question if a beautiful woman was to walk into a room partly dressed ie exposing a large amount of her body which man would not look at her and judge her on the basis of her body and beauty rather than her intelligence, character, manners, achievements, sacrifices. The way women are treated in this society is shocking all based on looks and how much she is willing to bare just look at the popularity of 'lads mags' and **** these day. Muslim women when allowed to establish covering on their own free will are not oppressed or abused rather they are set free of the pressures and expectations of society which want her to be like a commodity and are treated like pieces of meat. NO doubt I do not mean in every single situation or case but in many cases.
The Quraan is not the only source of Islaam we also have the Sunnah (Recorded traditions of the Prophet Muhammad which consists of what he did, said, silently approved of and did not do) and the understanding of the first three generations of Muslims which our Prophet referred to as the best of the Muslims who had the best understanding of Islaam.
For those of you who have not spoken to a Muslim lady with a veil you cannot really fairly comment on what it would be like. Like I mentioned before my wife will get into many nice conversations with people when out expecially when people see my 6 month old son and they see her expressions from her body movement, her eyes and many times her laughter and tone of voice.
The Afgan women were forced to wear the veil but also some were not...women were explained the way with regards to it and chose from free will to wear it...when the Muslims with the help of the US and UK went to fight the Russian many were called to the Islaam of explanation and choice and some accepted. An action done for someone other than Allaah whether forced or otherwise is not accepted so it defeats the whole purpose. The Taliban are filthy extremist ignoramuses who need to be corrected or destroyed they cause nothing but pain and suffering and they gave refuge to the dog Bin Laabin!
Modesty is down to your own interpretation in Islaam we have clear guidelines for everything so we can achieve the best reward for our efforts as our Lord wants to carry out those actions. 'Jordans' idea of modesty is certainly different to the Queens. The same applies to the actions of prayer, fasting, Hajj, men growing the beard etc.
I hope that helps...by the way thanks for the reasonable questions.
07 October 2006, 02:42 PM
#112
Originally Posted by scoobynutta555
People like you are in for a harsh reality check in this country in the following years if that's the way you think.
And you still have not showed me where in the Qur'an it says that women should cover their faces, 24-31 does not display this fact at all.
In any case, most Muslims over here would be a coconut over a pinapple which is what you are, prickly on the outside and yellow on the inside.
And you still have not showed me where in the Qur'an it says that women should cover their faces, 24-31 does not display this fact at all.
In any case, most Muslims over here would be a coconut over a pinapple which is what you are, prickly on the outside and yellow on the inside.
Are you taking the ****?
Well i am a moderate muslim so i gues there will be a big kick off in the years to come as we dont want to bend over and take it up the *** from blair ,jack straw or mr brown.
I have the quran infront of me SURAT 24 AN NUR PART 18 VERSE 31.
...........and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparant (like bouth eyes necessity to see the way,or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil,gloves,head-cover,apron),and to draw their veils over (i.e their bodies ,faces ,necks and bosoms)and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers or their sons or their husbands sons or their brothers or their brothers sons,or their sisters sons,or their (MUSLIM) woman i'e sisters in islam),or the female slaves who their right hands posses,or old male servents who lack vigour,or small children who have no sense of feminine sex.And let them stamp their feet so as to reveal.What they hide of their adornment.................
07 October 2006, 02:52 PM
#114
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Originally Posted by juggers
Are you taking the ****?
Well i am a moderate muslim so i gues there will be a big kick off in the years to come as we dont want to bend over and take it up the *** from blair ,jack straw or mr brown.
I have the quran infront of me SURAT 24 AN NUR PART 18 VERSE 31.
...........and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparant (like bouth eyes necessity to see the way,or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil,gloves,head-cover,apron),and to draw their veils over (i.e their bodies ,faces ,necks and bosoms)and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers or their sons or their husbands sons or their brothers or their brothers sons,or their sisters sons,or their (MUSLIM) woman i'e sisters in islam),or the female slaves who their right hands posses,or old male servents who lack vigour,or small children who have no sense of feminine sex.And let them stamp their feet so as to reveal.What they hide of their adornment.................
Well i am a moderate muslim so i gues there will be a big kick off in the years to come as we dont want to bend over and take it up the *** from blair ,jack straw or mr brown.
I have the quran infront of me SURAT 24 AN NUR PART 18 VERSE 31.
...........and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparant (like bouth eyes necessity to see the way,or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil,gloves,head-cover,apron),and to draw their veils over (i.e their bodies ,faces ,necks and bosoms)and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers or their sons or their husbands sons or their brothers or their brothers sons,or their sisters sons,or their (MUSLIM) woman i'e sisters in islam),or the female slaves who their right hands posses,or old male servents who lack vigour,or small children who have no sense of feminine sex.And let them stamp their feet so as to reveal.What they hide of their adornment.................
"31. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."
I stand by my conclusion that, indeed, nowhere in the Qur'an does it say women have to cover their faces or hands.
And yes, quite possibly there may be a 'big kick off' in the coming years. As ordinary folk of this country won't 'bend over and take it up the ***' from ***** such as yourself.
07 October 2006, 02:54 PM
#115
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Also, if it did come to a 'big kick off' I know where my money would be on who came out on top.
07 October 2006, 02:55 PM
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scoobynutta If you read my last post I have mentioned that we also have the Sunnah as a reference which is as important to explain Islaam as the Quraan. I will give an example in the Quraan it mentions in many places establish the prayer and pay the zakaat (obligatory charity) yet it does not detail how to do those things. The Sunnah details them and explains them.
Forget about the big kick off any Muslim suggesting that might as well forget it and this is not the way of the Muslims I just think maybe the conversation is getting a bit heated. I don't think Juggers meant to write that really.
Forget about the big kick off any Muslim suggesting that might as well forget it and this is not the way of the Muslims I just think maybe the conversation is getting a bit heated. I don't think Juggers meant to write that really.
Last edited by Aaquil; 07 October 2006 at 02:58 PM.
07 October 2006, 02:57 PM
#117
Originally Posted by scoobynutta555
You are quoting the same passage of text I have read. I have bold texted your additional comments, which like your general understanding of most things, appears to be misunderstood interpretations. Even so here is the correct quotation free from your additions and omissions of the original text.
"31. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."
I stand by my conclusion that, indeed, nowhere in the Qur'an does it say women have to cover their faces or hands.
And yes, quite possibly there may be a 'big kick off' in the coming years. As ordinary folk of this country won't 'bend over and take it up the ***' from ***** such as yourself.
"31. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss."
I stand by my conclusion that, indeed, nowhere in the Qur'an does it say women have to cover their faces or hands.
And yes, quite possibly there may be a 'big kick off' in the coming years. As ordinary folk of this country won't 'bend over and take it up the ***' from ***** such as yourself.
LMAO can you not read mate?it says blatently you aint supposed to show your face etc to anyone other then husband and your family etc.
If one chooses to wear the veil who are you or who is the state to try and stop that person?
Are you offended in anyway by a woman weaing veil.
Your talking out your *** now mate.dont try and manipulate the qurans text.
07 October 2006, 02:57 PM
#118
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Originally Posted by juggers
Are you taking the ****?
Well i am a moderate muslim so i gues there will be a big kick off in the years to come as we dont want to bend over and take it up the *** from blair ,jack straw or mr brown.
I have the quran infront of me SURAT 24 AN NUR PART 18 VERSE 31.
...........and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparant (like bouth eyes necessity to see the way,or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil,gloves,head-cover,apron),and to draw their veils over (i.e their bodies ,faces ,necks and bosoms)and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers or their sons or their husbands sons or their brothers or their brothers sons,or their sisters sons,or their (MUSLIM) woman i'e sisters in islam),or the female slaves who their right hands posses,or old male servents who lack vigour,or small children who have no sense of feminine sex.And let them stamp their feet so as to reveal.What they hide of their adornment.................
Well i am a moderate muslim so i gues there will be a big kick off in the years to come as we dont want to bend over and take it up the *** from blair ,jack straw or mr brown.
I have the quran infront of me SURAT 24 AN NUR PART 18 VERSE 31.
...........and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparant (like bouth eyes necessity to see the way,or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil,gloves,head-cover,apron),and to draw their veils over (i.e their bodies ,faces ,necks and bosoms)and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers or their sons or their husbands sons or their brothers or their brothers sons,or their sisters sons,or their (MUSLIM) woman i'e sisters in islam),or the female slaves who their right hands posses,or old male servents who lack vigour,or small children who have no sense of feminine sex.And let them stamp their feet so as to reveal.What they hide of their adornment.................
I would be interested to hear the bits you don't follow, or are we not admitting to those/that fact on here
07 October 2006, 02:59 PM
#119
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Originally Posted by Aaquil
scoobynutta If you read my last post I have mentioned that we also have the Sunnah as a reference which is as important to explain Islaam as the Quraan. I will give an example in the Quraan it mentions in many places establish the prayer and pay the zakaat (obligatory charity) yet it does not detail how to do those things. The Sunnah details them and explains them.
07 October 2006, 02:59 PM
#120
Originally Posted by scoobynutta555
Also, if it did come to a 'big kick off' I know where my money would be on who came out on top.
Have you heard yourself lol.