stevem2k

you forgot schrodingers cat

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I know - I opened the box and fed him his Whiskers Tuna Chunks - then he was dead alive.

Fuzz

and stood up the correct way with a buttered back


Andy

Leslie

No Geezer, you are quite right, I would not try to convert anyone to religion, it is my own affair what I believe and yours what you do. I am not prepared to argue with those who insult my beliefs because of their blinkered approach to the subject. I do have an absolute right to defend religion from the innuendo and unpleasant accusations as I mentioned before. Neither am I prepared to mount an attack on those who have different ideas on life to me.

I am prepared to bet that if you, Olly, LozGTI and I met for a drink we would get on very well regardless of our different outlooks on our beliefs. Thats what really counts in life if you think about it. Just not necessary to make a big deal out of it is it?

Show me where I have said that you are condemned to Hellfire if you are not religious. I have already said to Olly that I agree that one can live a good life without being religious and I also say that you will not suffer any problems after death if you do just that. but I also said that religion encourages you to behave properly in life. Nothing wrong with that I propose.

Yes there are those like the Jehovah's Witnesses who knock on your door to have a discussion. We get a couple of blokes who do that here sometimes although they are a very different religion to what I believe. They are good and very pleasant chaps and we always have an interesting chat about the world in general and they sometimes show a passge from the bible. I do not find that in any way objectionable and I respect their beliefs although I do not follow them. It might take as much as a minute to listen to that. I can stand that if only on the grounds of polite behaviour. It is actually quite interesting and applicable at times. The whole point is that they lead good lives and are respectful and thoughtful towards others. You can't knock that in all honesty.

Some of you have made accusations which include putting words in my mouth or insinuated that I take actions which I would never do. Tjhis is no basis for an honest discussion. This is a symptom of someone without a real argument and no chance of backing up what thay say. I believe a lot of that is an attempt to justify their own attitudes although they are not too sure about them personally. They often make NL type statements which are just not true.

My whole point is that if you want to be an atheist, that is a choice to which you are entitled. It does not give you the right however largely in self justification or whatever, to denigrate those of a different persuasion especially when they have done you no harm. As I said, try a bit of tolerance to others and respect for their beliefs while you practice your own outlook on life, and you will be a happier person at the very least.

Les

jonc

Everyone knows that Christmas is for one thing and that is used to mark the coming of.......the "January sales"!

OllyK

My father is a church warden and he and I spend a lot of time together at weekends and we get on very well. That doesn't stop the occasional heated debate on religion and I see no reason why it should.

As do other philosophies, but without the rules and unsubstantiated stories.

As I said before, try telling a few devoute religious types that you are an atheist and see how you are treated. Apart from my close familiy it has been with distain. Telling me how wrong I am and how I will be punished. There is NO acceptance of my views, only a determination that I must accept a god, any god if it comes down to it, because atheists are amoral and evil. You need to experience the "tollerance" of the religious from the other side to realise how truely intollerant many of them are, even of different flavours of their own religion (cf. Catholisism with Protestant). It is the self riteous attitude that they are right and their actions are justified because they are trying to save your imortal soul and in so doing will assure their admission to heaven that gets my goat.

Sbradley

I've been a bit too busy to join in this one, or even to read it properly until now. But that doesn't matter - Les just said pretty much exactly what I'd have said. So I've nothing further to add.

As Dave Allen used to say..."Goodnight, and may your God go with you."

SB

pwhittle

I think there's another point. I'm not religious, but I live life (pretty much) within Christian values. Surely that's more important than believing blindly in 1 particular story, and thinking that everyone else is wrong.
Should anyone ever prove or disprove the existance of a devine entity, most of the world are going to look pretty silly.

I do strongly disagree with bringing chidren up into a religion. Bring them up to have velues certainly - if all parents did that the streets wouldn't be filled with the trash they are, but kids should make up their own minds when they're old enough. I refused to have my daughter Christened for this reason. I'll support her to do whatever she wants when she decided.

Geezer

Les,
I haven't said that at all. Not once have you ever said that I, or indeed any other person would be condemned to Hellfire and eternal damnation. It just so happens that alot of the discussion has involed you, so it may seem that way, but it is not intended to. 'You' are believers, not 'You Les'. Like somone else said earlier, you seem to a man of high moral fibre and a generally decent person all round.

However, what I did say, was that by believing in God, and therefore the bible, you do, whether consciously or not, believe in the underlying message of Hellfire and eternal damnation for all non-believers. So, if you really don't believe that, then the bible is not a trustworthy source for your beliefs. Religion is not a smorgasboard, you either believe, or you don't.

I hope that clarifies my stance.

Geezer

OllyK

Even more of it will look silly if it's proved there isn't one at all! TBH if there is a deity(s) out there, I doubt that any religion on this planet actually has it right. If there is something intelligent that is powerful enough to create the universe AND actually gives a monkeys what the people of this planet do, it wouldn't have a problem making sire we all knew who it was and how it was to be worshiped (if at all)

I think you have a good point, people need to follow a set of moral values and need to teach them to their kids. They don't need all the other trappings of religion to be able to do that, indeed, that acts as a distraction IMO.

andythejock01wrx

But Les hasn't suggested that at all, has he ?

Suresh

Quite a lot of good opinions in this thread - apart from the odd illiterate, toilet-cleaning moron.

----------------

I plan to celebrate christmas with family visits and giving and receiving presents - which have zero religious significance anyway. But if that makes me a hypocrite then I guess I can live with the tag.

AudiLover

awww did I upset ya?

andythejock01wrx

seek = sikh ??

jasey

If the Government gave us 2 days off for Diwali that would suit me fine - and it would **** off the Christians - two birds with one stone .

ps If we did get Diwali we'd get 5 days off

DCI Gene Hunt

5 day's off you say!........I'm in then, what do I need to do? wear a turban and nod at an elephant or something

Can't be any worse than singing poxy christian hymes in a damp feckin church full of old fogies

Where do I sign up?

jasey

Right that's two of us then.

3 more and the government should change their policy and we'll get 5 days off in October. And as Hindus (Hindis - whatever ) we'd officially be allowed to hate the muslims.

Can't see any problems yet .

DCI Gene Hunt

This just keeps getting better by the minute .......... don't suppose we get free beer? (for religious purposes only )

jasey

Alcohol free .

But hey - the Christians don't approve of getting pished in the church either - I'm sure we could bend that rule

DCI Gene Hunt

5 days off is still 5 days off (albeit alcohol free ) but I'm still up for it

StickyMicky

get pissed
eat food

Suresh

You're just a pointless, illiterate ******.


P.S. Where do I sign up for my 5 days off!

DCI Gene Hunt

Consider yourself number 3

Leslie

Olly, you should realise that if a religious freak denigrated you for your views on religion I would defend your right to hold them. I believe it cuts both ways.

Perfectly fair point which I think you know I would say to you Geezer.

Jasey, you should read my earlier post again carefully. I did not state that aids is a punishment for **** sex, I said that some people would say that as part of the context of my post. That does not mean that I believe that either.
That has no bearing on this discussion anyway. that is a "smoke and mirror" statement if ever I saw one!

The point of my posts is quite clear as I have stated, and does not warrant insults in any way. It is not controversial but entirely reasonable.

Les

jasey

Sorry Les - You state that Aids is a punishment for the pooftas in San Francisco.

So are you saying that Aids is not a punishment ?

even if you aint - there are countless religions (if not all of them) that persecute pooftas !

Do you fancy become the fourth member of the SN Hindi Community .

AudiLover

so thats a yes then

OllyK

Plenty of people believe in a god without the bible, indeed only the Muslims, Christians and Jews take the bible seriously, other religions do not. Also plenty of people with a belief in a "personal god" who again probably have little time for the bible.

Geezer

Yes, I realise that Olly, I was referring to the christians.

Oooo, you are a pedant at times..........

Geezer

OllyK

Maybe you should have said the "christian god" then, there are lots of others! Pedantry makes the world go round!

Ted Maul

OllyK - do you think your upbringing i.e. having a dad who is a church warden so obviously it was a key element of your young life, has had this influence on your 'aggressive athiest' views?
Apart from the fact that I actually agree with your opinions on religion, you do seem unable to let comments from religious people pass by, and are always quick to argue.

do you protest too much?? I reckon you're one of those who'll end up born again one day...