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Old 30 November 2006, 12:58 PM
  #121  
OllyK
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Originally Posted by andythejock01wrx
This is all a bit one sided, even if Mick is doing a sterling job !

Are there no other Christian type chappies out there, or does the Scoobynet Massive not consider such issues worthy of discussion ?
It would probably get more of a response on Religion and Philosophy - JREF Forum the only problem is that religious types have a tendancy to leave when they get a dozen people ripping everything they post to shreds.

While Mick is doing a sterling job of copy & pasting from a creationist propoganda site, I really don't have the time and inclination to go through line by line deconstructing it all. Needless to say, a few minutes with google and site like talkorigins.org show that most if not all of the claims are old ones rehashed and have been debunked times many.
Old 30 November 2006, 01:02 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by OllyK

Mick is doing a sterling job of copy & pasting from a creationist propoganda site
Yes, that though had crossed my mind !
Old 30 November 2006, 01:26 PM
  #123  
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Religious leaders used to tell people that eclipses were the "gods" being angry with them.

If you belive in God you are a Sheep.

Simple.
Old 30 November 2006, 01:42 PM
  #124  
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No one responded to my point on another thread (or was it this one?!)

Why are some of the most incredibly intelligent people to roam this earth willing to believe.Surely they are clever enough to see through it? Scoobynet is

That surgeon I mentioned.Bishops with Cambridge degrees?The parents of that lawyer recently stabbed to death(Ab- pryce?)they said they forgave (or something like that).

It seems to me that most people with access to the internet believe they understand everything.Nobody does.Nobody ever will ,however bright the scientists involved in disproving existance believe they are.

Anyway,I only said it was a bit hypocritical to have time off and not celebrating Christ's birth when that is what it (should be) all about.Not a material gift frenzy and week of drinking
Old 30 November 2006, 01:45 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by lozgti
No one responded to my point on another thread (or was it this one?!)

Why are some of the most incredibly intelligent people to roam this earth willing to believe.Surely they are clever enough to see through it? Scoobynet is

That surgeon I mentioned.Bishops with Cambridge degrees?The parents of that lawyer recently stabbed to death(Ab- pryce?)they said they forgave (or something like that).

It seems to me that most people with access to the internet believe they understand everything.Nobody does.Nobody ever will ,however bright the scientists involved in disproving existance believe they are.

Anyway,I only said it was a bit hypocritical to have time off and not celebrating Christ's birth when that is what it (should be) all about.Not a material gift frenzy and week of drinking

Theology isn't all about logic ; faith comes into it also.
Old 30 November 2006, 01:47 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by lozgti
Not a material gift frenzy and week of drinking
That's so not right.............




































.................... it adds up to about 10 days drinking for me!
Old 30 November 2006, 01:57 PM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by lozgti
No one responded to my point on another thread (or was it this one?!)

Why are some of the most incredibly intelligent people to roam this earth willing to believe.Surely they are clever enough to see through it? Scoobynet is

That surgeon I mentioned.Bishops with Cambridge degrees?The parents of that lawyer recently stabbed to death(Ab- pryce?)they said they forgave (or something like that).

It seems to me that most people with access to the internet believe they understand everything.Nobody does.Nobody ever will ,however bright the scientists involved in disproving existance believe they are.

Anyway,I only said it was a bit hypocritical to have time off and not celebrating Christ's birth when that is what it (should be) all about.Not a material gift frenzy and week of drinking
I did answer it at the time.
Old 30 November 2006, 02:05 PM
  #128  
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creationist[s] -

if the earth is only 6,500 years old, how come tyrannosaurus rex wasn't creating mayhem in downtown cairo at the time of the ancient egyptians?

why are there no dinosaurs mentioned in the Book of Genesis? no sane individual can deny they existed and existed a very long time ago - more than 6,500 years ago and more than 250,000. the empirical evidence of rock stratification tells us that clearly on its own.

i digress.

why do religion, deity, faith and worship only emerge with homo sapiens? largely because we evolved our way through savagery and ignorance to thought and civilisation, much of which time was spent in superstitious and inexplicable awe of our surroundings. the evolution of science itself has gradually reduced religion to what it is today - a hokum hangover, a rump of the faithful that spans the lapsed, the tolerant, the intolerant, the murderous and the insane.

the logical holes in creationist theory are pretty much endless. creationism appears to me to be the lunatic fringe of ID; ID in itself is recessive and medieval - but it's the trendy way for the more fundamentalist christians to try and regain a covert role for faith-based belief in western society - and education. it is no surprise that the wellspring of ID is the ultra-conservative bible belt of the US, arguably the last bastion of unblinking western christian faith.

i'm an atheist; in other words, a reformed and liberated agnostic. creationists, by all means hold your beliefs, you're welcome to them. i'm with les here. and after all, you're not going to fly planes into buildings and commit mass murder in the name of your God. well, not yet anyway.

but don't expect acceptance as fact without first providing proof. and i mean proof that is utterly incontrovertible. the sort of proof that shows that when you collide two atoms, you get a massive release of energy - from hypothesis to hiroshima.

until you have that proof, creationism and ID are simply two more untested ideas in a warehouse containing millions of others that never cut the mustard.

simply to have faith that something "is" is, in my book, just a fig-leaf for lack of intellectual rigour and an illogical suspension of rational thought.

Last edited by Holy Ghost; 30 November 2006 at 02:10 PM.
Old 30 November 2006, 02:06 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by lozgti
Why are some of the most incredibly intelligent people to roam this earth willing to believe.Surely they are clever enough to see through it? Scoobynet is
They're scared that when they die they rot away to nothing .
Old 30 November 2006, 02:26 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by Holy Ghost
creationist[s] -

if the earth is only 6,500 years old, how come tyrannosaurus rex wasn't creating mayhem in downtown cairo at the time of the ancient egyptians?

why are there no dinosaurs mentioned in the Book of Genesis? no sane individual can deny they existed and existed a very long time ago - more than 6,500 years ago and more than 250,000. the empirical evidence of rock stratification tells us that clearly on its own.

i digress.

why do religion, deity, faith and worship only emerge with homo sapiens? largely because we evolved our way through savagery and ignorance to thought and civilisation, much of which time was spent in superstitious and inexplicable awe of our surroundings. the evolution of science itself has gradually reduced religion to what it is today - a hokum hangover, a rump of the faithful that spans the lapsed, the tolerant, the intolerant, the murderous and the insane.

the logical holes in creationist theory are pretty much endless. creationism appears to me to be the lunatic fringe of ID; ID in itself is recessive and medieval - but it's the trendy way for the more fundamentalist christians to try and regain a covert role for faith-based belief in western society - and education. it is no surprise that the wellspring of ID is the ultra-conservative bible belt of the US, arguably the last bastion of unblinking western christian faith.

i'm an atheist; in other words, a reformed and liberated agnostic. creationists, by all means hold your beliefs, you're welcome to them. i'm with les here. and after all, you're not going to fly planes into buildings and commit mass murder in the name of your God. well, not yet anyway.

but don't expect acceptance as fact without first providing proof. and i mean proof that is utterly incontrovertible. the sort of proof that shows that when you collide two atoms, you get a massive release of energy - from hypothesis to hiroshima.

until you have that proof, creationism and ID are simply two more untested ideas in a warehouse containing millions of others that never cut the mustard.

simply to have faith that something "is" is, in my book, just a fig-leaf for lack of intellectual rigour and an illogical suspension of rational thought.


Agreed.

Anyway, how do you have time to type this during working hours ? Can you manage 3000wpm ?!
Old 30 November 2006, 02:47 PM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by andythejock01wrx
Agreed.

Anyway, how do you have time to type this during working hours ? Can you manage 3000wpm ?!
nah, about 100. self-employed homeworker.
Old 30 November 2006, 03:34 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by Holy Ghost
nah, about 100. self-employed homeworker.
I'm at about 20wpm so I simply appear less talkative !!
Old 30 November 2006, 05:27 PM
  #133  
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Back on topic - did anyone realise that in the home country of Santa Claus - St. Nicholas they give the children their presents next week on St Nicholas' day.

So on Christmas Day all they get is a serving of left over roast carp and a pigs platter (don't ask!!).

Rannoch
Old 30 November 2006, 05:31 PM
  #134  
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BTW in terms of inexplicable phenomena such as the Flagella Motor I think that Satan did it

I know this because I spoke to some Jehovah's Witnesses at one point and I used my trump card and asked them where dinosaurs came from as they were not an explicable phenomena. They said that it was Satan testing us.

QED - it's all Satan's work

Rannoch
Old 30 November 2006, 06:43 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Holy Ghost
creationist[s] -

if the earth is only 6,500 years old, how come tyrannosaurus rex wasn't creating mayhem in downtown cairo at the time of the ancient egyptians?

why are there no dinosaurs mentioned in the Book of Genesis? no sane individual can deny they existed and existed a very long time ago - more than 6,500 years ago and more than 250,000. the empirical evidence of rock stratification tells us that clearly on its own.
That's easy, god put the fossils there to test the faith of the creationists
Old 30 November 2006, 06:44 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Rannoch
BTW in terms of inexplicable phenomena such as the Flagella Motor I think that Satan did it

I know this because I spoke to some Jehovah's Witnesses at one point and I used my trump card and asked them where dinosaurs came from as they were not an explicable phenomena. They said that it was Satan testing us.

QED - it's all Satan's work

Rannoch
**

they really said that?? sheesh. did you dissolve in tears of mirth at that point?
Old 30 November 2006, 06:52 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by OllyK
I think that's a little harsh, he has blind faith maybe and it's very hard to move from a position that relies on belief without or indeed despite evidence to one that embrasses evidence.

.

It's not harsh OllyK, I am sure that Mick is mad and stupid and so are all believers, and that includes some of my friends and my mother.

Consider George W Bush, the leader of the most powerful country on Earth, who is a committed Christian, reads the bible and prays to God. Imagine if it were fairies that he believed in. There is as much evidence of the existence of fairies as there is of God but would man who openly admits to belief in fairies make it to the whitehouse. Of course not, people would say be is mad.

So, why is he considered any less mad for believing in God, and how can he be trusted to run a powerful nation?

Atheists/Humanists can no longer just sit back and 'respect other peoples right to believe' in this crap. The issues in the middle east and in africa threaten world peace and the sooner these people stop worshipping their own inflated egos in the name of God, and get real for a change, then the sooner the world will become a more peaceful place for me to raise my (humanist) children.
Old 30 November 2006, 10:21 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by GaryCat
It's not harsh OllyK, I am sure that Mick is mad and stupid and so are all believers, and that includes some of my friends and my mother.
...
Atheists/Humanists can no longer just sit back and 'respect other peoples right to believe' in this crap. The issues in the middle east and in africa threaten world peace and the sooner these people stop worshipping their own inflated egos in the name of God, and get real for a change, then the sooner the world will become a more peaceful place for me to raise my (humanist) children.
Thanks GaryCat - nice to know your considered and passionate opinion

Science is Science. A method of analysing what is around us, our interpretation of what the results of our tests and experiments show us is based on our presupositions. Evolutionists not want to admit that evolution is really a religion!
It is related to the fact that whatever you believe about your origins does affect your whole world view, the meaning of life, etc. If there is no God and we are the result of chance random processes, it means there is no absolute authority. And if there is no one who sets the rules, then everyone can do whatever he likes or hopes he can get away with. Evolution is a religion which enables people to justify writing their own rules. The sin of Adam was that he did not want to obey the rules God set but do his own will. He rebelled against God, and we all suffer from this same sin: rebellion against the absolute authority. Evolution has become the so-called “scientific” justification for people to continue in this rebellion against God.
The Bible tells us in the Book of Genesis that there is a true and reliable account of the origin and early history of life on earth. Increasing numbers of scientists are realizing that when you take the Bible as your basis and build your models of science and history upon it, all the evidence from the living animals and plants, the fossils, and the cultures fits. This confirms that the Bible really is the Word of God and can be trusted totally.
The secular humanists, of course, oppose this because they cannot allow the possibility of God being Creator. They fight to have prayer, Bible readings, and the teaching of creation forced out of the public school curriculum. They have deceived the public into thinking this is eliminating religion from schools and leaving a neutral situation. This is simply not true! They haven’t eliminated religion from the public school. They have eliminated Christianity and have replaced it with an anti-God religion — humanism.
Most public schools have become institutions that train generations of school children in the religion of humanism. There is a minority of Christian teachers in the public school movement who do try to be the “salt of the earth” in such institutions. However, it is becoming increasingly difficult for them. There are quite a number of Christian teachers who hide their light under a bushel — frightened of being consistent Christians in such a pagan environment. Some teachers have been threatened with termination of their employment if they are seen to be giving a Christian philosophy in the educational system.
We see extreme emotionalism in reaction to the creation ministries around the world because the evolutionists’ religion is being attacked by a totally different belief system. This emotionalism can be seen in the way in which the anti-creationists talk about the issue. For instance, consider the quote from Dr. Michael Archer (Senior Lecturer in Zoology at the University of New South Wales) in Australian Natural History, Vol. 21, No. 1: “Scientific Creationism is not just wrong; it is ludicrously implausible. It is a grotesque parody of human thought and a downright misuse of human intelligence. In short, to the Believer, it is an insult to God.”
The real battle is aligned with the fact that these people do not want to accept Christianity because they will not accept that there is a God to whom they are answerable. Perhaps this is why one evolutionist lecturer said: “You will never convince me that evolution is religion.” In other words, no matter what we were able to show him concerning the nature of evolution, he refused to accept that it was a religion. He did not want to accept that he had a faith because then he would have to admit it was a blind faith. And he would not be able to say that it was the right faith.
The public has genuinely been misled into thinking that evolution is only scientific and belief in God is only religious. Evolution is causing many people to stumble and not listen when Christians share with them the truth of the God of creation. You will notice in humanist opposition (through debates, the media, books, etc.) to the creation ministries that they very rarely identify any evidence for evolution. The main reason is, of course, that there is none.
Walk into a museum and have a look at all of the “evidence” for evolution on display. Different kinds of animals and plants are represented by carefully preserved specimens or by large numbers of fossils. You will see the story of evolution in words — but not in the evidence you see. The evidence is in the glass case. The hypothetical story of evolution can only be seen pasted on the glass case.
All the evolutionists have to do is to come up with one piece of evidence that proves evolution. If evolution is right and creation is nonsense, evolutionists have the media at their disposal to prove to everyone that evolution is true. However, they cannot do this. The evidence overwhelmingly supports exactly what the Bible says. It is a shame that creationists do not have the same media coverage to explain to the world the overwhelming evidence for the truth of creation.
Let’s face it, secular evolutionists must oppose creation ministries because, if what we are saying is right (and it is) — that God is Creator — then their whole philosophy is destroyed. The basis for their philosophy decrees there is no God. If evolution is not true, the only alternative is creation. That is why they will cling to the evolutionary philosophy even if the evidence is totally contradictory. It is really a spiritual question.
Some may say that if the evidence is so overwhelming that God created, surely people would believe this. In Romans 1:20 we read, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.”
The Bible tells us that there is enough evidence in the world to convince people that God is Creator, and to condemn those who do not believe.
If that is so, and the evidence is all there, why don’t people believe it? Is it because they do not want to believe it? The apostle Peter states that in the last days men will deliberately forget that God created the world (2 Peter 3:5). This means there is a willfulness on their part not to believe.
The Bible also tells us that, “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God” (Romans 3:11) and “For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.” (2 Corinthians 4:6). In other words, it is God who opens our hearts to the truth. When we think of the story of the pharaoh who would not let God’s people leave Egypt, the Bible says, “But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he would not let them go” (Exodus 10:27). This idea is also recorded in Exodus 7:14: “Pharaoh’s heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.” In the New Testament we read that Jesus taught the Pharisees and scribes in parables saying: “And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, by hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: for this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them” (Matthew 13:14–15).
Romans 1:28 tells us, “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.”
Thus, it is God who lets us see the truth — lets us see that the evidence is all there — that He is Creator. However, in a very real sense, there has to be a willingness on our part to want to see as well. Why can’t the humanists, the evolutionists, see that all the evidence supports exactly what the Bible says? It is because they do not want to see it. It is not because the evidence is not there. They refuse to allow the evidence to be correctly interpreted in the light of biblical teaching.
In Isaiah 50:10 we read, “Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? Let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.”
It is my prayer that those who oppose the Creator God will come to trust in Him as Lord and Saviour. When we read the rest of Isaiah 50, it should make each of us pray more for humanists and evolutionists who want to walk in their own light — in the light of man: “Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow” (Isaiah 50:11).
We do not want this to be the fate of any human being. As the Lord says in His Word, it is not His desire that any should perish. However, God (who is a God of love) is also the God who is judge, and He cannot look upon sin. Therefore, sin must be judged for what it is. However, God in His infinite mercy sent His only begotten Son, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men” (John 1:1–4).
GaryCat and OllyK I'm sure in comparison to you guys I am an intelectual pygmy - hence my need to cut and paste information from the internet... But this stuff all makes sense to me.
If you take the premise that the bible origins are true - the facts that we see around us stack up - this is science not religious creationism or religious evolutionism...
Scientific arguments for a young earth are numerous.
1)The old-earth idea was developed historically, not from letting the physical facts speak for themselves but by imposing anti-biblical philosophical assumptions onto the geological observations. See this article and this DVD.
2)The radiometric dating methods are based on those same naturalistic, uniformitarian, anti-biblical assumptions and there is plenty of published evidence that they do not give valid dates. Besides the RATE research mentioned earlier, consider the well-researched arguments in The Mythology of Modern Dating Methods. You cannot expect this icon of evolution to be overthrown in a few short paragraphs.
3)John Morris’s book (The Young Earth) gives a good layman’s summary (with documentation and plenty of pictures to illustrate) of the some of the strongest evidences for a young-earth and global Flood. For more in-depth arguments see John Woodmorappe’s book (Studies in Flood Geology). Excellent DVDs illustrating some of these points are on Mt. St. Helens (Mount St. Helens: Explosive Evidence for Catastrophe) and Grand Canyon (The Grand Canyon: Monument to the Flood). Creationist scientists (or any scientists, for that matter) don’t have answers to everything and so are continuing to do research (and the number of qualified creationist geologists is increasing), but following is some of the evidence brought out in these resources:
1)The almost complete absence of evidence of erosion or soil layers or the activity of living things (plant roots, burrow marks, etc.) at the upper surface of the various strata (showing that the stratum did not lay there for thousands or millions of years before the next layer was deposited).
2)Polystrate fossils (usually trees) that cut through more than one layer of rock (even different kinds of rock supposedly deposited over thousands if not millions of years). The trees would have rotted and left no fossil evidence if the deposition rate was that slow.
3)Soft-sediment deformation—that thousands of feet of sedimentary rocks (of various layers) are bent (like a stack of thin pancakes over the edge of a plate), as we see at the mile-deep Kaibab Upwarp in the Grand Canyon. Clearly the whole, mile-deep deposit of various kinds of sediment was still relatively soft and probably wet (not like it is today) when the earthquake occurred that uplifted one part of the series of strata.
4)Many fossils that show (require) very rapid burial and fossilization. For example, soft parts (jellyfish, animal feces, scales and fins of fish) or whole, large, fully-articulated skeletons (e.g., whales or large dinosaurs such as T-Rex) are preserved. Or we find many creatures’ bodies contorted. All this evidence shows that these creatures were buried rapidly (in many cases even buried alive) and fossilized before scavengers, micro-decay organisms and erosional processes could erase the evidence. These are found all over the world and all through the various strata.
5)The rock record screaming “Noah’s Flood” and “young earth.” The secular geologists can’t hear or see the message because of their academic indoctrination in anti-biblical, naturalistic, uniformitarian assumptions. The reason that most Christian geologists can’t see it is the same, plus the fact that they have believed the scientific establishment more than the Bible that they claim to believe is the inspired, inerrant Word of God. There are also thoroughly researched scientific refutations of skeptical objections to Noah’s Ark and the Flood here, which strengthen one’s faith in the biblical account of the Flood.
Creationists still have many challenges regarding the scientific evidence for a young universe, but distant starlight is no more of a problem for young-earth creationists than it is for big bang proponents, as this DVD by Dr. Jason Lisle (Ph.D. in astrophysics) shows: Distant Starlight.
Cheers

Mick
Old 30 November 2006, 10:52 PM
  #139  
OllyK
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Originally Posted by Mick
Evolutionists not want to admit that evolution is really a religion!
Please give me your definition of "a religion" and then explain how the theory of evolution fits it.

If you take the premise that the bible origins are true -
Circular reasoning my friend, first show that they ARE true before you springboard other things off from that point. I believe them to be false and as such everything else that follws will therefore also be false!

Try actually reading the bible some time, cover to cover rather than just taking on board the carefully selected bit your pastor points you to. Almost every former christian I know that has become an atheist did so after actually reading the bible and seeing that it just does not hang together, it contradicts itself all over the place or things have to be declared allegory to get round the problems. This then creates the problem of what is allegory and what isn't and who decides.

the facts that we see around us stack up - this is science not religious creationism or religious evolutionism...
What we see around us is the natural world, religion is in the realms of the supernatural (i.e. untesable by natural means). If we can't test it, it can't have an effect on us, and if it can't have an effect on us, whether it exists or not becomes immaterial.

Last edited by OllyK; 01 December 2006 at 08:36 AM.
Old 01 December 2006, 08:44 AM
  #140  
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It's all clear now.

Mick is Moses, converted to Christianity! The cutting and pasting of such huge swathes of rubbish prove it!

Geezer
Old 01 December 2006, 08:56 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by Mick
Thanks GaryCat - nice to know your considered and passionate opinion

Science is Science. A method of analysing what is around us, our interpretation of what the results of our tests and experiments show us is based on our presupositions. Evolutionists not want to admit that evolution is really a religion!

GaryCat and OllyK I'm sure in comparison to you guys I am an intelectual pygmy - hence my need to cut and paste information from the internet... But this stuff all makes sense to me.
If you take the premise that the bible origins are true - the facts that we see around us stack up - this is science not religious creationism or religious evolutionism...


Cheers

Mick

Mick ( ),

I can't see any point in all this "cutting and pasting".
Can't you simply express your views in your own words, rather than quoting some text verbatum aand saying "this makes sense to me" ?

So, what about the "dinosaur" question ?
Old 01 December 2006, 09:37 AM
  #142  
Geezer
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Talking

Mick,
Having a quiet moment at work, I read one or two of the links you put up. Thanks for such a good laugh.

What is so striking and ironic about the grabage they wrote, is that they constantly try to undermine the scientific view of evolution and 'old earth' by saying that people who believe in those things are blinded by their 'faith' and are working from a basic premise that they are right!

Apart from this being wrong (science is based upon observation to reach the answer), it really is the pot calling the kettle black!

I don't like pasting large swathes, but this nearly made me laugh out loud......

I want to state clearly that naturalistic assumptions do not necessarily mean that a scientific conclusion is wrong. For example, a person with naturalistic assumptions as his starting point could conceivably deduce the law of inertia from his observations. Or, in the matter of actualities, Francis Crick, who is an atheist, was a co-discoverer of the structure of the DNA molecule. But these examples have to do with what I like to call operation science. This research uses the so-called ‘scientific method’ of observation of repeatable experiments in a controlled environment to determine how the present creation, or an individual entity in the creation, operates. For example, medical research, engineering research, and much research in biology, chemistry and physics fall into the category of operation science. This is the kind of science which put a man on the moon, a refrigerator in almost every kitchen, and finds cures for diseases. But operation science does not have any significant bearing on any doctrine of Scripture, and it is rarely affected by a scientist’s religious worldview.

However, the matter of the origin of the law of inertia or of the DNA molecule or of the origin, age and history of the earth and universe (and everything in them) is a distinctly different question. These questions fall into the domain of what is often called origin science. This kind of research does not use the ‘scientific method’ of experimentation (except sometimes to propose possible causes of past events). Rather, to determine the actual past cause for some present effect that was produced in the unobservable past (e.g., a fossil or Grand Canyon), origin scientists use the legal-historical method of consideration of any relevant eyewitness testimony of the past event and careful investigation of the existing circumstantial evidence of the past event. Sciences such as archeology, paleontology and historical geology fit into this category of origin science. Origin science is like criminal investigation—by studying the evidence which exists in the present, researchers are trying to ‘discover the past.’ Origin scientists, then, are reconstructing history, which has direct and significant bearing on many important doctrines of Scripture. Here, naturalistic and uniformitarian assumptions strongly influence the observation, selection and interpretation of the physical data and can lead to very erroneous conclusions. In this case, Jesus’ warning that bad trees cannot produce good fruit (Matt. 7:18) and Paul’s warnings about deceptive philosophy (Col. 2:8) and ‘arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”’ (1 Tim. 6:20) are very relevant. Old-earth geological theories were theories about history. Since they started with anti-biblical presuppositions, it is no surprise that they ended up concluding that the history in the Bible was wrong.
Now that is blind Chrsitain faith!

Geezer
Old 01 December 2006, 09:49 AM
  #143  
DJ Vinyl Ritchie
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Gentlemen, lets bow our heads and pray together,


Our beer, which art in barrels,
hallowed be thy drink, thy will be drunk
at home as it is in the pub,
forgive us our daily spillage,
and those who spillage against us.
Lead us not into winetasting,
and deliver us from alcopops,
for ours is the bitter, the spirits
and the lager, forever and ever,
Barmen.



DJ Vinyl Ritchie.............When I die, I will be reincarnated as Britney Spears *****

Last edited by DJ Vinyl Ritchie; 01 December 2006 at 10:09 AM.
Old 01 December 2006, 10:07 AM
  #144  
jasey
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Originally Posted by DJ Vinyl Ritchie
DJ Vinyl Ritchie.............When I did, I will be reincarnated as Britney Spears *****
Best hope she doesn't stick it up her boyfriends ****
Old 01 December 2006, 10:11 AM
  #145  
DJ Vinyl Ritchie
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Originally Posted by jasey
Best hope she doesn't stick it up her boyfriends ****
If it means I get to see the gash of Britney Spears, then so be it.


DJ Vinyl Ritchie......... Every hole's a goal
Old 01 December 2006, 10:21 AM
  #146  
jasey
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Default Did a search on "Religous Pish" - here's the result

From the Diocesan Registry.
Document No. 21.
1634.
THE VISITATION OF BISHOP FOSTER.

THE PARISH OF KK. MALEWE

In 1634 Bishop Foster sent out to the Clergy and Churchwardens of each parish a large number of questions under the title of `Bishop Foster's Visitation.' His chief aim appears to have been to see if there were any remains of Popish practices in Man.
Right Revrend and orSingular . . . Lo or humble duties p'mised . . . the church-Avardens and Sydmen whose names are hereunto subscribed doe (under reformacon) certifie (by vertue of oroathes alreadie taken) by way, of answere to those Articles expounded unto us and inquired of by y'. Lop in this yor first Visitacon (and that to the uttermost of our knowledge) as f olloweth
ffirst we doe truely certifie that or Curatt doth constantly preach evrie Saboath, catechise the yonger sort, and in his sermons praye for ye Qing, Queene, Royale issue, councell and state
2 lie. That he was admitted to preache by the late deceased Lo : Bp. He hath not suffered any stranger to preach since his coming to this place.
3 lie. That there are neither lectures in or churches or excerses in privatt houses in or pishe used, wch might breed moracon [?] etc.
41ie. That or Comen Prayers are red revrently and dystinctly upon Sondayes and holie dayes in or church: the Sacramts revrently adminstred, and zealously received without Idolatry.
5 lie. That or minister doth weare a surplisse in tyme of Comen Prayer and att the administracon of ye Sacram[en]t: and att Baptissme uses the Signe of the Crosse.
Item. That or minister hath not since his cominge to us suffered or admitted any to ye holy comunion or to be godfather or godmother but baptised being a prson excomunicatt, or notorious offender, or nott instructed in ye principles of religion : and that the pishoners for ye most ptte receive thrice a yeere att ye least.
Item. We doe certifie that ye minister hath nott att any tyme married wthout Licence or bannes askinge: and hath beene verie carefull to observe due tyme and place.
It. That our minister hath but one livinge. It. That he doth carefully visit ye sick, religiously exhort them, and doth attend ye dead by meetinge ye corps at ye church stile, and accompanyeth yem to ye church and grave.
It. That ye 5th day of November ye Minister calleth ye people to ye church.
It. We doe certifie yat ye Minister is not suspected of incontinence, gaminge, or drunkennesse : hee keepes noe aylehouse, neither is any cryme observed in him to ye offence of his Callinge.
It. That he keepeth his church house upon his gleebe in good repaire.
It. for soe much as we certainly know that neither vicr gen''all, Archdeacon or any other in Ecclall office, have not suppressed or concealed ye excomunicon of any censure eccliall, or iniured any man, contrary to ye Lawes of this Island.
It. We doe certifie that or minister doth not read ye Constitucons and Canons Ecc[lesiastic]al because ye pish hath not ye booke.
For the Layetie.
Item. We doe certifie yat we have all ornam[en]ts for church service as ye Booke of Comen Prayer, a faire Large Bible a decent font a Comunion table. a pulpitt, two comunion Cups, ye Ten Comandemts written on ye church wall, and a box for ye poore.
It. That or Church and Chancell, wth ve Church yard wall, be in repaire, saveinge one window latly broken wch shall be repaired out of hand. The Chancell window is broken wch ye Steward is to repaire.
The last sentence is written in the margin as ar after-thought.
It. As for Almes houses we have none: of pencons duly payd [we] heere noe complaint.
It. We doe certifie yat ye minister doth allto-gether baptisse in ye font: and yat usually all ve pishn's doe receive and cause yeir children to receive, being 14 yeeres of age : and yat ye yonger sort but onely once a yeere : and as for ye youths of inferior age yey be something slack m repayreing to ye church to be catichised in ye winter season.
It. We doe certifie that we know not of any yat use to talke, walke, or sleep, or to use any unrevrent behavior in ye Church in tyme of prayer, preachinge, or adininistracon of ye sacramts.
It. We doe certifie yt we know not of any wch use either privatly or publiquely to deprave by speech or otherwise any pte of true religion, or doe withdraw ye people from their due obedi-ence of ye church, &c.
Also we declare yt their is noe Schoole keept in or pish but one, ye m' whereof saies he hath his licence. '
It. We doe certifie yt we know not of any vt sell drinke in tyme of devyne service or sermon on Sondayes or holy dayes.
It. That when their is any chiding or brawling in church or churchyard, ye Chapt" Quest (loth p''sent yem : soe yat now we know not of any yat is unprsented or have latly offended in yat kynd.
It. We doe certifie yt their are not any knowen in or pish to p[ro]phane ye Saboath by sevrill worke, nor none on holy Feast dayes as formrlie : they have been punished yat have offended in yat kynd.
It. We doe certifie yat neither beare, or bulbatinge, or any other pastimes, are used on Sabothes and Holy dayes to the hinderance of devine service, or any sup[er]stitious ringing of bells in this pish, burninge of candles, wvorshipinge of crosses: but heretofore some have used to stand on. ye graves of 'ye dead and to pray. This now is much ceased and is left of.
Alsoe we heere yat many from other pishes doe repaire and resort unto a Well yt is in our pish, to what intent or purposte we know not.
This well is the celebrated Chibbyr Unjin, at which in August 1931 a primitive bog-oak hollowed vessel was found, and a brief description of which will be seen in the December issue of the Journal
Alsoe their is a Crosse in ye mids of Foure wayes within or pish, at wch we heere that some use to lay their sick children, to what purpose we know not.
It. We doe certifie yt we have a Register booke wherein are written ye names of all children baptised, psons married, or buried, two coffers, one without a lock, ye other but with one lock.
It. We doe certifie yt neither Chancellr, Vlcr Genrall, official] Register or appartr [apparitor] have exacted any fees for any thing yat we cer-taynly knowe.
It. We doe certifie yat we know not of any incestuous psons, adulterers, fornicators, usurers, swearers, drunkards, or any other suspected of any such or ye like crymes, but yey have beene presented unto ye officer. What course hath beene taken with some we know not : savinge one Tho : ffargher who is latly suspected to have had carnall dealing with his owne maydservant.
It. We doe certifie yt we know not of any within or pish that have harboured any woman begotten with child or suffered them to kepte unpunshed but that all such abhominable sins are duly punished.
It. We doe certifie yt all are readie to pay their taxacons and dues towards ye repayreinge of ye church: and yet ye churchwardens doe faithfully discharge their places and give at ye geeing forth of their office a true accompt.
It. We doe certifie yt we doe not know of any yt doe inter-meddle with ye goodes of any pson dep[ar]ted this life without proving a will or takeing a lawful] administracon hereof.
It. We doe certifie yt we know not of any 3 t hath absolved any excomunicate pson without recognicon, or comuted any pennance, saveing ye viccar gen''all, who hath comuted with some whose names are of record.
It. We doe certifie yt we know not of any y' have offended against ye Canons and other Recall laves in any cryme more then alreadie declared.
Our Rev' end Lo : (under reformacon) we humbly desire youre patience, in the informacon of all ye pishonrs greevances and humbly state to yo" Lop. w-ch is : That nowe they want that Unspeakable Comfort of heeringe God's Word and wonderful] workes in their own tongue-wch form''ly they have heard - for now since yor Lop's coming or minister doth not soe much edifie them in their ovine Language either in devine service or sermon.
Therefore they doe humbly beseech yor Lop, to cause ye minister to edifie and exersice his Tallent as formrly he hath done and cann doe soe shall they and wee pray, &c.
Yo" Lop's humble and obedient servants Churchwardens
Ro : Harisson [of Ballaglonna].
Tho : Tayler [ Crossag] .
To : Bell [Ballavell].
Tho : Quakin [Ballavoddan].
Wm. Harison [Ballacrink].
To: Norris.
Wm. Watleforth.
Edw. Quay.

The names in italics are crossed out in the original.
Sidemen
Tho : Tubman [Bowling Green].
Tho : Bridson [Ballagrangey].
James Corrin [Ballasalla].
Jo : ffargher [Cooilcam].
Henry Wanwright [Derbyhaven].
Wm. Taggart [Ballakew].
The foresd Tho : ffarg" enioyned for his fornication to 3 Sondayes pennance in peniten-tial] habbyt in his pish church.
Since the last answere to these articles we find thees enormities, defects in the house of God, and delinquencie acted as followeth, wch, under reformacon, we leave to yor Lops. religious Censure
Thoe Moore married wthout Banes. Isable Corrin married wthout Banes. Christian Harison married in another pish wthout Banes.
Adam Stafford and Savag Radliffe married wthout Banes and in another pish.
Jo : Kneene and Christian Curlett married wthout Banes and in another pish.
Noe seate for the minister.
Jo : Bridson's pte of the Church yard ditch out of repair.
Also we find that the VicrGeneral hath Received Comutacon money of some in or pish viz., Steven Bell, Jo : Bridson. Nicho : Harison.
Alsoe their be many whose names are given to the Vicr that will not pay their dues to the church.
Wm. Harison and John Norres Some of the Wardens for neglecting their duties in the reparing of the church yard ditch.
The words in italics are crossed out.
There are some of the Churchwardens that have not yet given accompt when they went out of their office.
The Church out of repayre in the rooffe.
NOTE: The Vicar of Malew in 1634 was Robert Parr, who was in the parish from 1633 to 1640, when he became Rector of Ballaugh. His son Charles followed him in 1670, when he died.

It all makes perfect sense to me
Old 01 December 2006, 10:30 AM
  #147  
bugsti
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Interesting post.

I wonder if the views expressed are representative of the country as a whole - the vast majority seeming to belong to atheists. I suspect they do.

In that case, why are the majority of funerals and memorial services Christian based. Surely the last thing an atheist would want would be a Christian burial - this would be abhorrent.

However there are no atheists on a sinking ship!
Old 01 December 2006, 10:35 AM
  #148  
jasey
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Originally Posted by bugsti
Interesting post.

I wonder if the views expressed are representative of the country as a whole - the vast majority seeming to belong to atheists. I suspect they do.

In that case, why are the majority of funerals and memorial services Christian based. Surely the last thing an atheist would want would be a Christian burial - this would be abhorrent.

However there are no atheists on a sinking ship!
Funerals aren't about the dead person - they're about making the people still alive feel better about the whole thing.

I suggest you go to a humanist funeral - They concentrate on the dead person rather than some mythical being who is gonna look after the dead person until you join them .

As for the Sinking ship - I wonder how many survivors are atheists ?
Old 01 December 2006, 10:38 AM
  #149  
DCI Gene Hunt
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Originally Posted by bugsti
However there are no atheists on a sinking ship!
Yes there are! I wouldn't waste my time 'praying' I'd spend it feckin swiming like that aussie hobbit Thorpe.....

God?, my ****
Old 01 December 2006, 10:40 AM
  #150  
jasey
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Originally Posted by DCI Gene Hunt
Yes there are! I wouldn't waste my time 'praying' I'd spend it feckin swiming like that aussie hobbit Thorpe.....

God?, my ****
DCI Pedo - Hmmm


Quick Reply: Question for the atheists



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