What is it with TT drivers ?
30 October 2006, 01:32 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by Dracoro
besides I've got bigger fish to fry.
Well, it is lunchtime!!! 
Originally Posted by Dracoro
I'd **** over you,
30 October 2006, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by New_scooby_04
A Westie owner talking about other people getting p*ssed on! love it!!
30 October 2006, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Torpid
It just makes me chuckle that some people think a 7K modded classic will 'blow a brand new M3 away'- because it won't.
Probably up to 100 (if on a private road).
Unless BMW don't release the correct specs for their cars.
The M3 does have a splendid amount of pull and torque further up the speed range, but, then again so do some of those madly modded scoobies.
There are a good number of red faced M3 owners out there (because of scooby owners, not because of the price they pay for servicing and upkeep).
In fact when I think about it, what are you talking about?
BMW reckon 5.2 to 60, tops at a limited 155. BHP is 343 with 269lbs of torque.
How can you say that some of the classics won't beat that ?
As an example, here is a snapshot of the M3 spec off the BMW site, then a snapshot of the PPP blurb (granted for newage) off the Subaru site. Now that's not even highly modified like some of the classics are and can be bought cheaply for.
I would assume my point is proven, unless you have some other point?
/Don't get me wrong, i'd have an M3 new over a scooby new anyday - I'm not stupid, just don't have enough money.
//though the new 330d is looking a better bet.
///the "westie" should have course beat the M3 too
though only if it's a pedigree from the kc
Last edited by leerjwd; 31 October 2006 at 07:26 AM.
30 October 2006, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by leerjwd
rque.
How can you say that some of the classics won't beat that ?
How can you say that some of the classics won't beat that ?
I think it's fairly safe to say that there will be few Impreza 'classics' with a purchase price of 7K including mods that can 'destroy' an E46 M3.
In any case the Impreza would likely be destroyed (literally) by sustained high speeds. I rarely see them over here on mainland Europe but when I have they've rarely impressed (ha!). From my own experience of owning a modified 'classic' they are fairly slow once you get over 120mph and suffer terribly from the effects of poor aerodynamics. Bonnet lifting, general buffeting, unstable etc etc. Remember not everyone lives in a country where they are unable to drive at whatever speed they feel like should circumstances permit.
Last edited by Torpid; 30 October 2006 at 04:19 PM.
30 October 2006, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Torpid
Depends what you mean by 'beat' doesn't it? I'd imagine that a 'classic' Impreza with an unsympathetic (to the car) driver might make a better start but I'd say the E46 is probably easier to launch well than an Impreza- they have masses of off the line traction being RWD and having 255 section rear tyres.
I think it's fairly safe to say that there will be few Impreza 'classics' with a purchase price of 7K including mods that can 'destroy' an E46 M3.
In any case the Impreza would likely be destroyed (literally) by sustained high speeds. I rarely see them over here on mainland Europe but when I have they've rarely impressed (ha!). From my own experience of owning a modified 'classic' they are fairly slow once you get over 120mph and suffer terribly from the effects of poor aerodynamics. Bonnet lifting, general buffeting, unstable etc etc. Remember not everyone lives in a country where they are unable to drive at whatever speed they feel like should circumstances permit.
I think it's fairly safe to say that there will be few Impreza 'classics' with a purchase price of 7K including mods that can 'destroy' an E46 M3.
In any case the Impreza would likely be destroyed (literally) by sustained high speeds. I rarely see them over here on mainland Europe but when I have they've rarely impressed (ha!). From my own experience of owning a modified 'classic' they are fairly slow once you get over 120mph and suffer terribly from the effects of poor aerodynamics. Bonnet lifting, general buffeting, unstable etc etc. Remember not everyone lives in a country where they are unable to drive at whatever speed they feel like should circumstances permit.
I wasn't trying to be funny, it just amazes me that the ultimate driving machine, isn't, well, so...ultimate.
If it's speed your after, scooby dooby doo
Which was my point about the TT, bloody lovely (imo) but not quick enough for the money.
30 October 2006, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by leerjwd
But I think they might on the 0-60 drag.
Probably up to 100 (if on a private road).
Unless BMW don't release the correct specs for their cars.
The M3 does have a splendid amount of pull and torque further up the speed range, but, then again so do some of those madly modded scoobies.
There are a good number of red faced M3 owners out there (because of scooby owners, not because of the price they pay for servicing and upkeep).
In fact when I think about it, what are you talking about?
BMW reckon 5.2 to 60, tops at a limited 155. BHP is 343 with 365lbs of torque.
How can you say that some of the classics won't beat that ?
/Don't get me wrong, i'd have an M3 new over a scooby new anyday - I'm not stupid, just don't have enough money.
Probably up to 100 (if on a private road).
Unless BMW don't release the correct specs for their cars.
The M3 does have a splendid amount of pull and torque further up the speed range, but, then again so do some of those madly modded scoobies.
There are a good number of red faced M3 owners out there (because of scooby owners, not because of the price they pay for servicing and upkeep).
In fact when I think about it, what are you talking about?
BMW reckon 5.2 to 60, tops at a limited 155. BHP is 343 with 365lbs of torque.
How can you say that some of the classics won't beat that ?
/Don't get me wrong, i'd have an M3 new over a scooby new anyday - I'm not stupid, just don't have enough money.
It's 269 lbs ft at 4900 rpm.I would distance myself from saying that a Scooby would "blow away" an M3. I don't like such terminology, A std one wouldn't and you would need a seriously powerful soooby to beat one easily.
The subject has been done to death, but covered pretty comprehensively by a certain Dr Banks, IIRC who has owned both and came to the conclusion that you need a 320bhp classic to beat a E46 M3 consistently (driver skill equated)
For the puposes of comparison:
BMW M3
0-60 5.12
0-100 11.84
60-100 6.72
Std classic scooby
0-60 5.60
0-100 15.87
60-100 10.28
320 bhp classic Scooby
0 - 60 (Secs) : 3.960 - 100 (Secs) : 10.4060 - 100 (Secs) : 6.44
FWIY, I have a mate with an M3 and he argues that my Impreza (320bhp) is demonstrably quicker and much easier to drive quickly.
Are we going to swap: No!!
ns04
30 October 2006, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Torpid
I'd say the E46 is probably easier to launch well than an Impreza- they have masses of off the line traction being RWD and having 255 section rear tyres.
.
.
"Earth calling Planet Rabid !!" ~ A 2wd is easier to launch than a 4wd !
Agree with you on the TT v std WRX comparison though.
31 October 2006, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by andythejock01wrx
"Earth calling Planet Rabid !!" ~ A 2wd is easier to launch than a 4wd !
Agree with you on the TT v std WRX comparison though.
Launch a Subaru without being brutal with the clutch/revs and I reckon you'll be lucky to see under 7 seconds to 60.
Launch an M3 with hardly any revs on the dial and feed in the power and you'll do low 6's all day long (in the dry)
Your comments about 2WD might well apply to front drivers but RWD cars can get off the line very well given a grippy road surface and a large contact patch.
It's a fact that to achieve good launch times with turbocharged four wheel drive cars you have to be very unsympathetic mechanically. Something I can't imagine most owners having the inclination or indeed the skill to do.
31 October 2006, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Torpid
I'm guessing from this you don't have much experience of launching cars.
Launch a Subaru without being brutal with the clutch/revs and I reckon you'll be lucky to see under 7 seconds to 60.
Launch an M3 with hardly any revs on the dial and feed in the power and you'll do low 6's all day long (in the dry)
Your comments about 2WD might well apply to front drivers but RWD cars can get off the line very well given a grippy road surface and a large contact patch.
It's a fact that to achieve good launch times with turbocharged four wheel drive cars you have to be very unsympathetic mechanically. Something I can't imagine most owners having the inclination or indeed the skill to do.
Launch a Subaru without being brutal with the clutch/revs and I reckon you'll be lucky to see under 7 seconds to 60.
Launch an M3 with hardly any revs on the dial and feed in the power and you'll do low 6's all day long (in the dry)
Your comments about 2WD might well apply to front drivers but RWD cars can get off the line very well given a grippy road surface and a large contact patch.
It's a fact that to achieve good launch times with turbocharged four wheel drive cars you have to be very unsympathetic mechanically. Something I can't imagine most owners having the inclination or indeed the skill to do.
I suggest that you don't really have any experience of trying to launch a BMW for a fast 0-60 time.
As for Scoobs the worst thing you can do is not be brutal enough. Launch hard enough and you get immediate wheelspin saving the drivetrain AND get a really fast take off time as four wheels spinning catch up with the car and launch you forward.
Real life example
Rannoch
Last edited by Trout; 31 October 2006 at 06:25 AM.
31 October 2006, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Torpid
I'm guessing from this you don't have much experience of launching cars.
Launch a Subaru without being brutal with the clutch/revs and I reckon you'll be lucky to see under 7 seconds to 60.
Launch an M3 with hardly any revs on the dial and feed in the power and you'll do low 6's all day long (in the dry)
Your comments about 2WD might well apply to front drivers but RWD cars can get off the line very well given a grippy road surface and a large contact patch.
It's a fact that to achieve good launch times with turbocharged four wheel drive cars you have to be very unsympathetic mechanically. Something I can't imagine most owners having the inclination or indeed the skill to do.
Launch a Subaru without being brutal with the clutch/revs and I reckon you'll be lucky to see under 7 seconds to 60.
Launch an M3 with hardly any revs on the dial and feed in the power and you'll do low 6's all day long (in the dry)
Your comments about 2WD might well apply to front drivers but RWD cars can get off the line very well given a grippy road surface and a large contact patch.
It's a fact that to achieve good launch times with turbocharged four wheel drive cars you have to be very unsympathetic mechanically. Something I can't imagine most owners having the inclination or indeed the skill to do.
subaru made most of their cars permanent 4wd for a reason... so you could belt it off in any sort of condition. il admit ive not read in great detail all this debate, but just my 2p worth and not looking for a flaming.
andy
31 October 2006, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by New_scooby_04
Your stats on the BMWs torque are a bit off mate!!! It's 269 lbs ft at 4900 rpm.
It's 269 lbs ft at 4900 rpm.
31 October 2006, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Rannoch
The mags regularly report tremendous problems launching BMWs and reporting good times. You spend the first twenty minutes working out how to turn the traction control off completely and the next forty minutes working out how to balance ragging the nuts of the thing and actually getting a time. Too much wheelspin = slow, too little = slow.
I suggest that you don't really have any experience of trying to launch a BMW for a fast 0-60 time.
As for Scoobs the worst thing you can do is not be brutal enough. Launch hard enough and you get immediate wheelspin saving the drivetrain AND get a really fast take off time as four wheels spinning catch up with the car and launch you forward.
Real life example
Rannoch
I suggest that you don't really have any experience of trying to launch a BMW for a fast 0-60 time.
As for Scoobs the worst thing you can do is not be brutal enough. Launch hard enough and you get immediate wheelspin saving the drivetrain AND get a really fast take off time as four wheels spinning catch up with the car and launch you forward.
Real life example
Rannoch
I've driven both have you?
Launching an E46 in the dry is extremely easy, these cars have massive 255 section rear tyres and the benefit of RWD, assuming you can modulate a throttle pedal and know your car of course.
As for the Impreza it's difficult for anyone with an ounce of mechanical sympathy to be that brutal with a car. Overcome that and you can launch one effectively. I wonder though how long a standard car would remain working if you were to do this regularly?
In the classic traffic light GP situation the Impreza is at a massive disadvantage. Unless of course the driver is going to rev it to 5K and dump his clutch. An E46 would be hitting 30 before the Impreza had even come on boost.
Last edited by Torpid; 31 October 2006 at 08:07 AM.
31 October 2006, 08:22 AM
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errrrmmmm Initial post "What is it with TT drivers" ?
The M3's been done to death.
And FACT, my RA has beat every M3 off the lights I've met.
And I would'nt say I molest my car.
Sure after a ton, the beemer would slaughter me.
But in the real world, on real roads, performance from 0-60's all I'm after.
These threads are all the same. There will always be someone out there with a faster, more expensive, more modded, more reliable and better handling car than me, but damn I'm so happy with having this amount of performance per £.
Peace
The M3's been done to death.
And FACT, my RA has beat every M3 off the lights I've met.
And I would'nt say I molest my car.
Sure after a ton, the beemer would slaughter me.
But in the real world, on real roads, performance from 0-60's all I'm after.
These threads are all the same. There will always be someone out there with a faster, more expensive, more modded, more reliable and better handling car than me, but damn I'm so happy with having this amount of performance per £.
Peace
31 October 2006, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Jap Import
errrrmmmm Initial post "What is it with TT drivers" ?
The M3's been done to death.
And FACT, my RA has beat every M3 off the lights I've met.
And I would'nt say I molest my car.
Sure after a ton, the beemer would slaughter me.
But in the real world, on real roads, performance from 0-60's all I'm after.
These threads are all the same. There will always be someone out there with a faster, more expensive, more modded, more reliable and better handling car than me, but damn I'm so happy with having this amount of performance per £.
Peace
The M3's been done to death.
And FACT, my RA has beat every M3 off the lights I've met.
And I would'nt say I molest my car.
Sure after a ton, the beemer would slaughter me.
But in the real world, on real roads, performance from 0-60's all I'm after.
These threads are all the same. There will always be someone out there with a faster, more expensive, more modded, more reliable and better handling car than me, but damn I'm so happy with having this amount of performance per £.
Peace
Threads develop, glad though you realise that your 7K Impreza isn't faster than an E46 M3.
31 October 2006, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Torpid
Threads develop, glad though you realise that your 7K Impreza isn't faster than an E46 M3.
apologies on spelling....
31 October 2006, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Torpid
I suggest you're talking out of your ***. If it takes you 20 minutes to work out how to disable the DSC+TC on an E46 then you'd have to be an idiot. It's just a matter of pressing a button.
I've driven both have you?
Launching an E46 in the dry is extremely easy, these cars have massive 255 section rear tyres and the benefit of RWD, assuming you can modulate a throttle pedal and know your car of course.
As for the Impreza it's difficult for anyone with an ounce of mechanical sympathy to be that brutal with a car. Overcome that and you can launch one effectively. I wonder though how long a standard car would remain working if you were to do this regularly?
In the classic traffic light GP situation the Impreza is at a massive disadvantage. Unless of course the driver is going to rev it to 5K and dump his clutch. An E46 would be hitting 30 before the Impreza had even come on boost.
I've driven both have you?
Launching an E46 in the dry is extremely easy, these cars have massive 255 section rear tyres and the benefit of RWD, assuming you can modulate a throttle pedal and know your car of course.
As for the Impreza it's difficult for anyone with an ounce of mechanical sympathy to be that brutal with a car. Overcome that and you can launch one effectively. I wonder though how long a standard car would remain working if you were to do this regularly?
In the classic traffic light GP situation the Impreza is at a massive disadvantage. Unless of course the driver is going to rev it to 5K and dump his clutch. An E46 would be hitting 30 before the Impreza had even come on boost.
You really haven't a clue have you
Edited to add that sadly I cannot find the video of my last track day at Castle Combe where the M3s turned up in force to show us Scoobs and Evos the way around the track. Oh how we lapped them
And that was in my old Sti V probably worth about £7k now
Last edited by Trout; 31 October 2006 at 10:22 PM.
01 November 2006, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by andythejock01wrx
Popcorn anyone ? 
The point that it takes 15s to turn the traction control off means that yer man would still be sitting there waiting to do his fast getaway and the lights would have changed back to red...
...of course unless he didn't realise you have to hold the button down to fully disengage traction and stability control
And then he would have to stop around the corner to actually turn off the engine for 30s and restart it to fully reengage the traction control in case it rained or something and he crashed his precious as the back end slid into a lamppost
All very practical.
Last edited by Trout; 01 November 2006 at 06:33 AM.
01 November 2006, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Rannoch
You really haven't a clue have you
Edited to add that sadly I cannot find the video of my last track day at Castle Combe where the M3s turned up in force to show us Scoobs and Evos the way around the track. Oh how we lapped them
And that was in my old Sti V probably worth about £7k now
Edited to add that sadly I cannot find the video of my last track day at Castle Combe where the M3s turned up in force to show us Scoobs and Evos the way around the track. Oh how we lapped them
And that was in my old Sti V probably worth about £7k now
You think your imaginary video would prove anything about launching the respective cars? (if you could produce it).
What on earth does a track day have to do with straiht line sprinting from a standing start?
01 November 2006, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Rannoch
The point that it takes 15s to turn the traction control off means that yer man would still be sitting there waiting to do his fast getaway and the lights would have changed back to red...
...of course unless he didn't realise you have to hold the button down to fully disengage traction and stability control
And then he would have to stop around the corner to actually turn off the engine for 30s and restart it to fully reengage the traction control in case it rained or something and he crashed his precious as the back end slid into a lamppost
All very practical.
01 November 2006, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Torpid
You think your imaginary video would prove anything about launching the respective cars? (if you could produce it).
What on earth does a track day have to do with straiht line sprinting from a standing start?
What on earth does a track day have to do with straiht line sprinting from a standing start?
You have never worked out how to turn off the traction control properly have you - or didn't you realise it was a two stage process?
Anyway - according to evo - my Scoob 0-60 = 4.3s, your BMW 0-60 = 5.1s...
...so tell me who would win the traffic light sprint?
By the way when they road tested the M3 CSL - a genuinely fast car - they struggled to get the 0-60 time under 5.3s because it was so difficult to launch
Have a lovely day!
Rannoch
01 November 2006, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Rannoch
Your repeated comments that no Scoob could possibly be faster than an E46 M3 and the fact that you think threads develop
You have never worked out how to turn off the traction control properly have you - or didn't you realise it was a two stage process?
Anyway - according to evo - my Scoob 0-60 = 4.3s, your BMW 0-60 = 5.1s...
...so tell me who would win the traffic light sprint?
By the way when they road tested the M3 CSL - a genuinely fast car - they struggled to get the 0-60 time under 5.3s because it was so difficult to launch
Have a lovely day!
Rannoch
You have never worked out how to turn off the traction control properly have you - or didn't you realise it was a two stage process?
Anyway - according to evo - my Scoob 0-60 = 4.3s, your BMW 0-60 = 5.1s...
...so tell me who would win the traffic light sprint?
By the way when they road tested the M3 CSL - a genuinely fast car - they struggled to get the 0-60 time under 5.3s because it was so difficult to launch
Have a lovely day!
Rannoch
01 November 2006, 07:29 AM
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Back to TT's...
I have a V6 DSG and have absolutely no need to have a 0 - 60 under 6 seconds, so
you all.
........some people buy cars for other reasons, other than 'just' performance. If I want performance I drive the scoob....simple. If I want to drive in comfort and return a half decent mpg I drive the TT.
I have a V6 DSG and have absolutely no need to have a 0 - 60 under 6 seconds, so
you all.........some people buy cars for other reasons, other than 'just' performance. If I want performance I drive the scoob....simple. If I want to drive in comfort and return a half decent mpg I drive the TT.
01 November 2006, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Rannoch
Your repeated comments that no Scoob could possibly be faster than an E46 M3 and the fact that you think threads develop
You have never worked out how to turn off the traction control properly have you - or didn't you realise it was a two stage process?
Anyway - according to evo - my Scoob 0-60 = 4.3s, your BMW 0-60 = 5.1s...
...so tell me who would win the traffic light sprint?
By the way when they road tested the M3 CSL - a genuinely fast car - they struggled to get the 0-60 time under 5.3s because it was so difficult to launch
Have a lovely day!
Rannoch
You have never worked out how to turn off the traction control properly have you - or didn't you realise it was a two stage process?
Anyway - according to evo - my Scoob 0-60 = 4.3s, your BMW 0-60 = 5.1s...
...so tell me who would win the traffic light sprint?
By the way when they road tested the M3 CSL - a genuinely fast car - they struggled to get the 0-60 time under 5.3s because it was so difficult to launch
Have a lovely day!
Rannoch
As for the traffic light sprint my money would be on a correctly launched Impreza, my point is that most drivers are unable or unwilling to launch like this in everyday situations.
It's a fact that most owners come nowhere near to road testers times for 0-60 or 0-100 sprints. A mixture of mechanical sympathy, fear of repair bills and lack of skill being to blame.
I found the E46 330i and M3 extremely easy to launch in the dry with the electronic aids disabled, perhaps because I know how to modulate my right foot rather than stamping it to the floor.
Whereas to avoid turbo lag and bogging down in the Subarus I owned it was a case of 5K revs then progressively but smartly feed in clutch accompanied with a terrible amount of shock put through the drivetrain that had me wincing in sympathy every time I did it.
Furthermore in the situation I face on an almost daily basis your Impreza would be totally blown away by an M3 ie very fast motorway runs.
01 November 2006, 07:57 AM
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I remember a thread on here ages ago about real world 0-60 times where most Impreza drivers admitted that their average was more like 7 seconds and I reckon even that was probably optimistic.................
01 November 2006, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Torpid
I remember a thread on here ages ago about real world 0-60 times where most Impreza drivers admitted that their average was more like 7 seconds and I reckon even that was probably optimistic.................
01 November 2006, 10:34 AM
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Well, let's get to the real truth of the matter here...if were going to be telling it like it is - well then...
REAL MEN drive Rear Wheel Drive without traction control.
It takes large firm virile fertile ***** of steel and genuine technical ability to achieve and maintain high speeds in all year round conditions in a RWD without any form of traction control.
You are literally driving in the danger zone the moment you step in one....
I should know - I AM A REAL MAN.
There are ladies who will and can testify to this...my car is small, light and fast and in no way has to compensate for my incredible sexual prowess.
4WD (with or without electronic or mechanical traction control) is for pussies...
You know it's true!!! - most of you have ZERO technical driving ability but can achieve incredible feats of heroic driving speed in your all weather awd supercars...your turbo antics maybe enough to wow your girlfriend or wives into putting out - but it don't fool me!!...not for a minute!!
REAL MEN drive Rear Wheel Drive without traction control.
It takes large firm virile fertile ***** of steel and genuine technical ability to achieve and maintain high speeds in all year round conditions in a RWD without any form of traction control.
You are literally driving in the danger zone the moment you step in one....
I should know - I AM A REAL MAN.
There are ladies who will and can testify to this...my car is small, light and fast and in no way has to compensate for my incredible sexual prowess.
4WD (with or without electronic or mechanical traction control) is for pussies...
You know it's true!!! - most of you have ZERO technical driving ability but can achieve incredible feats of heroic driving speed in your all weather awd supercars...your turbo antics maybe enough to wow your girlfriend or wives into putting out - but it don't fool me!!...not for a minute!!