dij

OH MY GAWD
that is proper sik bad boy stuf

That must be awesome to drive now

Dark Blue Mark

Didnt get it running dij. Lack of patience! There's 4 guys on S2ki.com in the Uk that have bought similar kits and are fitting them right now though

0-100 in 10 secs is realistic I think.

MB

mg driver

you brought it and fitted it but never ran it
that can only mean there was summat wrong with it

imi

that looks like a s2k engine bay to me, s2ks are RWD, awesome chassis and by dropping in a supercharger or turbo's you solve the lack of torque issue with the engine and completely change the characteristics of the car.

very popular mod in the US as well.....

Enjoy the car - its all about power to weight > and clearly the s2k is a great base for that.

Dark Blue Mark

Yes it was my S2000 - now sold and have an FQ300. The beauty of a SC is that it totally keeps the characteristics of the linear VTEC power. It just shifts the power curve up a load!

MG - I made the mistake of fitting it while using my car as a daily drive. You need a spare car or a solid week off really. Decided it wasnt for me and took it off.

MB

imi

VTEC and Linear - hmm....thats a bit strange. iVTEC is more linear, Vtecs were never linear.

S2K is a different story, its a magical package for a fraction of the price of a NSX. Great handling, amazing engine, gearbox and steering response.

The thread is about the Integra and I still maintain, force inducing a FWD is rather stupid.

Dark Blue Mark

Imi have you owned either of these cars?

Yes VTEC is linear. The power before and after it is straight - not like a turbo, which is not linear. A bit of a pointless argument though.

Im not sure that saying FI on a FWD is "stupid" either...

MB

imi

Have you got a dyno plot? I am sure there will be a spike and the vtex x-over point like all other vtecs- in the case of the s2k it is pretty late, around 6800rpm.

FI on a FWD = understeer heaven = not to mention boring = LOL - But thats ok / we agree to disagree.

Dark Blue Mark

There is a spike, but its still linear, it doenst arc off.

Its 6000 rpm on the F20C. Have to own one and find out

MB

imi

So it is NOT linear then - and you own one -

super6four

I think 260 is a little generous for the spec listed. Everyone I know running that spec seems to be around the 240/250 mark, at the fly. However I am nitpicking, iether way you look at it still pretty good, and almost as much as my street kitted JRSC'd CTR, and on the road i bet there would be nowt in it.

Yeah yeah i know I have commited sacrelege and F/I'd a Honda...shock horror . And I drive a FWD so therefore I am a noob...eh imi As for understeering, well it does....but you REALLY have to push it for it to do that...is it boring...hell no....

Still could be worse, I could drive a Supra, and have to grow more hairs on my chest and get a shinny medallion


As for the original post, well I drive both an STI currently and a FWD type R and enjoy them both a lot. Very different though they are. I have a wee bit more fun in the Honda, as it requires a little more effort, and you feel; when you get it right, that it rewards a bit more. The Scooby feels so much more different, a little easier to press on with but not really quicker, though sometimes it feels it due to the power delivery..except at the top end.

In the wet I take the STI if the wife lets me, and she is not using it , oh I feel safer knowing the wife drives the Scooby.

The DC5 is a little more poised and direct than the CTR, better steering feel, and a LOT rarer than both the Civic, and the Scoob...so you get a little exclusivity. Oh and better looking as well. If you have a choice get the facelifted Teg as they tweeked the suspension which improved things further.

As for linnear :





That'll do.

imi

super - glad you are pleased with YOUR choice

I love the s2ks - could live with the lack of torque and low end power for everyday driving, but then that can be solved by a SC. As a package, its damn hard to beat the s2k.

and btw: if you want a rewarding drive, try out a RWD, you might never look back

super6four

Been there done that. AE86 and an S15 Silvia, great fun, would have one again. But I am still playing with the CTR as it is great fun on trackdays.

Next for me will be another AE86 as it happens set up for Grip on TB's. Probably. What the hell I always change my mind, pearls of the job I guess

imi

ahhh super - that plot is your DC5 plot. a dc5 is i-Vtec and not Vtec

the s2k is NOT linear as I was trying to highlight....

AE86 - WOW - would love to have a go in those...so damn light - like a go-kart

super6four

Nope it is my CTR plot, similar engine though as the teg, and tbh looks like that because of some excellent mapping by Dan at Abbey m/s. You can very easy tweek out the dip at crossover on a standard K20 using K-Pro....though I guess it is no longer standard...if you know what I mean.

I will add that the S2000 has one of the most linnear power deliveries of any N/A car I have driven, period...it does not feel like a B16/18 say. You do not feel the crossover in the same way.

imi

what have you done on your CTR? is that a JRSC i see??

Dark Blue Mark

Lack of torque and low end power inst solved by a S/C!

It begins to gain at 4k, but as the blower is driven off the crank its the VTEC cross over and beyond when its allowed to drink more air.

You haven't answered if you have owned any of the cars discussed here?

Good discussion though.

MB

super6four

Yep, 4psi (enough for me). I drive it between Oxford and Bath everyday on commute. And I have done 79k, 40k with the JRSC on. I find the Charger complements the engine very well. Though a (small) part wishes I had kept her all motor, I do like the bit of extra torque.

One of my friends has just completed work on a K24 bottom end (K20 head) with a turbo and has over 600 bhp, a little too much for me but If I know him he will keep it drivable, well as drivable as it is possible to be, in a FWD car.

super6four

Look at my graph Mark in my case the charger has improved low end power and torque quite a bit. I push the same amount of torque at 3.5k as I used to at 6.8. Partly due to the meachanics and partly due to the mapping, my vtec point comes in at 4k (you can see a VERY slight bump there), but the charger is allways spinning of course.

My *** agrees with the above, as much as I liked the Stock motor....It is a lot more driveable...really pulling hard out of corners, without so much gear stirring. Of course If I want to really push her

Dark Blue Mark

Ah didnt look at the graph, you have lowered VTEC which will shift it down.

MB

imi

Wont rub it in cause super has already backed up my point.

lesson to be learnt - how bloody important is the mapper

super6four

I have to add of course as in all things that is relative. For a 2ltr N/A petrol car, the torque was fine for it's class. Infact I think one of the things you do need to bare in mind when tuning FWD is to mutch torque is the enemy. It is one of the reasons I chose the S/C oute as oposed to turbo. I wanted an increase in tourque but not so much I wheel spin all the power away.

Balance is the key word I guess. I'll leave all the really big power tuning to the RWD and you yon w/d boys

So I'll be content to sticking behind you lot....just maybe a bit closer than you think .

///\oo/\\\

Tony,

With respect, as you have demonstrated on prior threads that you have a problem understanding the finer points of understeer and oversteer perhaps you would be best placed not to comment on this thread

Its pretty much a given that the 4wd performance saloons are far from exciting. Hugely competent but far from exciting.

A standard Integra R will be more involving to drive quickly than any standard Subaru.

A standard Integra R will have better chassis balance and will impart much more "feel" through its controls than any standard Subaru.

A standard Integra R will lap the majority of tracks faster than a standard Subaru with similar power to weight ratio (Granted, in the dry, where traction is not an issue) It will resist understeer less, for sure.

It will also lap faster than many RWD cars of similar power to weight ratio and be a hugely involving experience.

All despite having front wheel drive. And all just as the factory delivered them.

Cyberevo

iTrader: (1)

You summed it up, I just couldn't be bothered to reply to him.. You forgot better brakes too...

imi

What about a FWD ITR vs a RWD ITR (if there was such a thing) - identical apart from the drive, which would be quicker and MORE involving / exciting ??

super6four

Fair point imi, however surely the point the likes of the Teg, Clio Williams, Pug 205 GTI, Clio Cup, Lotus Elan etc, is that despite the general convention regarding FWD being dull.....that you CAN actually have a car, powered through the front wheels, drive it and have a grin on your face...and in a few cases be just as quick (if not quicker than) their RWD and 4WD compatriots.

Of course for ultimate response and to go as quick as you can, especially round a track, you need to drive the rear wheels, no-one I am sure would deny that.

Though I'd still be quite happy to go up againsed you and your supra on a track or strip

(actually that is a lie...I have done 79k with my Charged CTR and am still on the original set of front brake disks proving I drive like my gran)

imi

BTW, my brother has an ITR - I HAVE driven is HARD and I can tell you that it might not be the fastest car I have driven, but it did leave me with a smile on my face. My prelude was the same, although heavier and slower than his ITR (braking + twisties ) - althought I never admitted that to him

When driving hard, its great fun to be in high revving lightweight cars like the ITR and s2k - Shame you cant drive like that everyday

Its fine though, I prefer my Sup, its what I have and drive everyday at the moment.

Roojai

The imaginary RWD ITR would not have the torque to break traction at the rear on the circuit for power oversteer and the real FWD ITR has such a good LSD and is so light weight (no heavy drive shafts and rear differentials) that it is as good as it could be as a FWD.

Belive it or not there are factory produced 4WD ITR (DC-2) but not common and not with the Typre R engine. Bit stupid really, justgood for those using the car as a daily comute in icy/muddy areas

Dark Blue Mark

Got any info Roojai? Not heard of that before.

If Honda brought out an AWD turbo, I reckon it would be a real big seller. Guess they have no rally pedigree to back it up though - but wouldnt bother me.

Styled on the Mugen legend would be nice



MB

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

My points have all been valid thanks

On earlier cars yes, ones with DCCD or the likes where you can manually change the balance of the car make for a much more "interesting" drive, though I do take your point for "some" 4wd cars.

I take it you have driven the ENTIRE subaru range then


As above

So does that mean your not sure?
The latest Subaru's have virtually no understeer, fwd cars even with lsd's will still understeer.... let you figure that one out but understeer is built into most cars (esp fwd ones) for a reason



The fact is that a rwd car IS more involving due to the fact that the car is more "entertaining" in most cases, if power and performace was everything then all cars would be..... well not fwd thats for sure
You are trying to emphasise that fwd is the bees knees and it isnt, if you want a REAL drivers car then RWD, then just look at motorsport high performance cars (and no im not talking clio 197's or honda type R's ) and then come back

Tony