Spring Heeled Jack

Well, for what it's worth a straw poll conducted with the audience of the BBC's Any Questions programme showed that the great unwashed are 2 to 1 IN FAVOUR of Road Charging.

So there you have it. The idiots that populate this country actually want to have road charging for every journey taken by car. The argument has already been won by the green spin doctors and politicians.

andythejock01wrx

scoobynutta555

How many will be in favour when they realise that their speed is also being montiored. The vast majority of people as it stands now go over the limit at some stage. As a poster above, I shan't be in this country when this crap gets implemented.

GC8

Where will you be going? Every worthless f*cker in the third world who craves a better life seems able to stay here by some means. For us, getting accepted by another country is quite difficult. I can assure you.

Simon

scoobynutta555

I'll be in a newly built spread on 16 acres of land surrounded by stunning countryside in Ireland . Going through planning now and should be finished in 2 years time. I've spent a lot of time there over the years and acceptance is not an issue with the locals.

Third world migrants are welcome to this place

Happy days

scoobynutta555

Thanks for the red blob from the faceless tosser

Bit jealous that I'll be off and you'll be stuck in this hole are ya?

Ben v7

I think that's just typical government propaganda. I can't imagine that was a fair and accurate reflection of public opinion on the proposals. As usual, they attempt to brainwash and then if still not singing their tune they claim there must be something wrong with you...

We must all be 'zenophobic' or something afterall - hence can be ignored. It's not rational to appose epic schemes like this designed to extort yet more money from individuals already paying well over the odds for the 'priveledge' of having a car is it?

As far emigrating goes... I welcome the challenge of trying to relocate to another country... I am all in favour of vetting to prevent a country being infested with large groups of people who seem to be contributing nothing bar sending the country gradually to the gutter.

The only thing I can do, considering this hardly ressembles a democracy here anymore, is withdraw my participation and pay tax's elsewhere to a more agreeable government and obtain what I am sure will be a much better quality of life elsewhere.

I predict net immigration to continue running around half a million a year... but what they won't tell you is that's a million in from various **** holes around the globe and half a million of us lot out! The tax burden on those of you that remain is just going to keep on climbing I am afraid at the hands of schemes like this.

Sti_Prodrive

all i have 2 say is F this bullo*x ... im gona move out of the UK all together !

this place if becoming ****er by the day with new ****eee law's & stupid plans !!

Jonno_johnson

Ok good for you, pity more didnt do this

That still does not change my point, when the kids have broken up from school the rushour trafic is much calmer.

Spring Heeled Jack

Well, no. This was the real thing (sadly) Dimbleby asked the audience for a show of hands as to who was and was not in favour of the introduction of road charging, and the result of that was about 2 to 1 in favour. Scarey how stupid people are and how easily lead by corrupt politicians.

On the emigration side of things, of course the good news is that you can settle anywhere else in the EU with the same rights that those flooding here have. That gives quite a wide choice of quality destinations - though you will have to learn a language or two in the process. I'm looking very seriously at central/south France.

Ben v7

I am considering a move to either Australia, America or even maybe Hong Kong in the next few years. No language issues really and enough opportunity for decent work. All three countries have things right that the UK has got very wrong.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I would love to know the characteristics of that sample:

We asked 100 retards on DSS and banned from driving for a string of serious motoring convictions if they thought road charging was a good idea.

The ones that could repsond in coherent English (and there weren't many) said: "Makes no f*cking difference to us mate!"

Government spin dicks (refuse to call them "doctors" - it's insulting to people who genuinely have the title) say that's a "yes" then!

Ns04

scoobynutta555

There has been a massive shift in opinion by the people who already live in this country, and I'm afraid to say, most people are rather disillusioned about the way things are turning out. Quite frankly I'm not surprised people want out. Yes there may be a mentality of the grass is greener, but I think it is more than this. A lot of people with the means are putting their money where their mouths are and leaving.

Stupid policies like road charging with using excuses like congestion and green issues are being forced upon us by inept pocket lining idiots than run this country or are in line to run it.

Get this one, according to the reports the other day I'll have to wait to the ripe old age of 67 before collecting my state pension. I'm lucky enough to be in a final pension scheme at work, not so for new employees (who incidently are contract workers from Poland, Bangladesh and who knows where) thanks to the gov't. Pity I don't work for the local council,I'd be retiring on a nice publicly funded pension at the age of 60.

we're being taxed to the eyeballs for an underperforming and outrageously wasteful public sector. Money being poured in and what do we get out of it, another shafting. We don't have to vote Labour next time, the alternative being labour-lite party, once known as Tories. Quite what the thinking in that party is God only knows.

seanks

On a similar theme came across this on Warrington paper web-site.

Article

Our personal freedom is being threatened from every angle, car reg recognition next will be linking all CCTV systems into a face recognition system, oh and I forgot about the ID scam..

Ben v7

Exactly. Gordon Brown's 'wonder' economy is based on huge public sector spending. Over 40% are employeed either directly or indirectly by the government... that's a huge burden on the 60% of us in the private sector.

Many of the 'projects' have also been funded on huge borrowing (hidden under the banner of private-public partnerships) that will have to be repaid over the next 20 years. The economy has not grown as fast as Brown hoped for and our infrastructure is clearly struggling with all the additions to the population - we are failing to cope effectively on this level.

We are left with huge debts, inadquate and crumbling infrastructure, expensive ongoing projects, and now the resulting clammor for revenue raising initiatives such as green tax's, congestion and road charging - as usual the motorist pays as by default you must have a degree of wealth to run a car in the first place and it's the easiest target quite frankly.

Couple the huge future tax burden, services that have not improved anything like inline with expectations, an almost weekly decline in what most people consider to be decent quality of life and it just doesn't make sense to stay here and just take it up the **** from those who's unrealistic and ill thought out experiments and policies got us to where we are today.

Torries... Labour... all one in the same. Politics in the UK now is about spin, propaganda, image over substance, winning votes from the minority groups as opposed to generally favouring what's right for the majority. They know we have no option... bar one - leaving. For me, this is going to be the last straw.

GCollier

I'm actually in favour of road pricing, subject to it being implemented sensibly and not as a punitive means of taxation. And no, this isn't a wind-up designed to see how many negative reputataion points I can generate with this statement

Contrary to what most people might actually (choose to) believe, road pricing makes a great deal of economic sense to control demand for a finite resource and make use of our road network into a more efficient "market".

In economic terms, road pricing is a means of charging people for the negative knock-on effect of their actions on others. For car drivers, the cost of these actions are greatest when driving on busy roads in rush hour - traffic jams cause loss of productivity, a less enjoyable life for people, increased pollution, noise etc. By ensuring that everyone pays the right amount for the cost of their actions, the "market" of road usage will actually become more efficient.

Now people would argue that we already "pay enough" in terms of road tax and fuel duty, and I certainly wouldn't support large punitive road pricing charges on top of these, but rather as a replacement for them which more fairly tackles the underlying problem and leads to a more efficient use of our roads. The problem with road tax is it's a one-off charge, and once it's been paid you may as well make 1000 journeys a year as 100. Using road pricing as a replacement would make people consider more carefully whether each journey was actually necessary. (A good comparison is to consider how much you eat at a fixed price "eat as much as you can" buffet compared to one where each dish has to be paid for...) Likewise the problem with fuel duty is that it's simply not targetted accurately at the correct drivers in terms of making them pay the true cost of their actions; 100 people taking a journey down the M6 at 3am has no knock-on effect on the quality of life or productivity of others, but 100 people doing a school run in Hampstead at 8am almost certainly does.

Gary.

Ben v7

Most people have little option but to drive to and from work when the roads are most busy. How much flexibility will you really have in your 'choice' of when to use the roads? How many of us drive purely for pleasure these days anyway?

This taxation will be unavoidable to many and since when was it a privledge rather than a right to be able to move around as you please.

Jonno_johnson

If and when they bring it into law, like i said earlier we all need to make a stand, they can't lock us all up, worse comes to worse we over throw the ****ers.

Ben v7

This is true in theory. If enough people refuse to pay, such that any enforcement is completely out of the question then they will have no option but to back track. Unfortunately they will invest billions in the system first that they won't want to write off - expect the army deployed again if needs be as per the fuel protests. Quite how many people would be willing to go out their way to get involved is another big question. Some will be too busy making plans to leave I expect. If I am still here, count me in.

GCollier

I actually think there's a surprising amount of flexibility in when people work. Road pricing will almost certainly give people the incentive to make changes.

I hope it is unavoidable as it makes sound economic sense so long as the charges are pitched at the correct level. Try to keep an open mind and actually read some of the articles which explain the background economics.

And I would argue that with congestion at current levels, being able to move around as I please is anything but a right...

Gary.

scoobynutta555

If they want road pricing so badly, then I am all for it. Keep the existing publically funded roads free and tender contracts for privately funded toll roads, like the M6 toll road. This way public money is not used and whomever doesn't like sitting in congestion can feel free to pay for a quieter road.

Maybe our roads wouldn't be so congested if there wasn't a million odd Poles in this country

GCollier

Hardly a solution for urban roads though is it? The only answer is more efficient use of our existing road network, and road pricing will provide that.

Ahhh yes immigrants. As always, the convenient scapegoat.

Jonno_johnson

Above is one example of the roll over and take it, find any excuse to agree with this pathetic government, we pay tax on enough stuff in this life, now if this comes through we will have to pay tax to use the roads, **** this time for a revolt if this comes into law.

scoobynutta555

Ahh urban roads. I feel a smidgen of pity for you on your urban road when all the motorway traffic shoots off motorways during peak times. Then where will it go when that that route is taxed more, they'll find other rat runs and so on. So you'll end up with people avoiding the very roads that were designed to take mass flows of traffic and dumping themselves on less safer routes like maybe down your road.

And yes, mass increases in population in a small area, namely the south east and major cities, contributes massively to congestion if the infrastructure isn't similarly upgraded. With mass immigration over the past few years, prey tell, where has the road network been upgraded to handle all of this? So yes, I'm affraid immigrants from abroad and other parts of the country are to blame for the south easts and major city traffic woes.

What are you going to do for the next 10-15 years while you wait for this system to come into effect BTW?

GCollier

An ideal system of road-pricing would price all roads, not just motorways in a manner which made use of them most efficient.

In an urban area such as a big city, just how do you effectively upgrade infrastructure. In many places building new roads simply isn't an option. And even where you can, the current system of road tax + petrol duty is simply not the most efficient tax for solving the problem.

Probably continue to commute to the City by train from my house 5 mins walk from the station, because there is no effective road pricing scheme in place to help tackle congestion

scoobynutta555

I do believe they WILL price all roads, not just motorways. My point being, the motorist will ever increasingly sniff out alternative routes which may cost less. Thereby, not using the main routes which were specifically built for high volume traffic flow. You'll see more congestion on these routes, and I dare say more accidents. Accidents are a major cause of congestion didn't you know, something that satellite monitored road pricing will not prevent.

Nice for you to hop onto a train 5 minutes walk and be in a city with a mass public transport network. Unfortunatly, for a lot of people getting from A to B public transport isn't an option.

I see you are actively dodging the immigration and population flow increases for being a major factor in congestion

Re efficiency about road tax and petrol duty. The most efficient system it may not be, but compared to what is proposed it is super efficient. A proven source of tax revenue using an existing system is patently more efficient than setting up a whole new vast expensive system that probably won't acheive it's goals anyway. Look at Kens tax, I suppose London is now congestion free is it?

Spring Heeled Jack

I think George Harrison summed it up best when he wrote:

Have you seen the little piggies
Crawling in the dirt?
And for all the little piggies
Life is getting worse
Always having dirt to play around in

Have you seen the bigger piggies
In their starched white shirts?
You will find the bigger piggies
Stirring up the dirt
Always have clean shirts to play around in

In their styes with all their packing
They don't care what goes on around...

In their lives there's something lacking
What they need's a damn good whacking!!

GCollier

But the point is that in a properly designed system the road pricing charge you pay will be calculated to take into account the negative consequences to others of the particular road you're on and the time you're on it. If this "externality" charge is set correctly (and accidents could be factored into this), then you will end up with the most efficient use of our road network.

Bear in mind I pay a large premium to use this service at peak times to help manage demand. I also know that cars are necessary for a lot of people to get to work and I'm not suggesting that punitive charges should be introduced to shaft car commuters. But we do need something which makes people think more carefully about the necessity of the when and where of each journey, and the economics behind road pricing make a compelling argument.

Not dodging it at all, but then I haven't seen you present any evidence that immigration of Poles has been identified as a major factor in causing congestion. In any case immigration of hard working people with the right skills is beneficial for this country.

I'm not sure how you can say the current system is more efficient when neither road tax nor fuel duty correctly target the problem.

Gary.

Ben v7

Gary - fundamental driver behind road charging, green taxation, congestion charging is to raise revenue. Plain and simple. You are simply regurgitating the governments justification. Most of us will be much worse off under this and will still have to make virtually all our journeys at the peak times. You expect my boss to allow me to roll in gone ten because of Road Charging?

If motorways are too busy, the logical solution is to increase capacity of that motorway, not the reverse with bus lanes plus pricing people off it. While the rest of the world continues to develop, we appear to have to just make do with what we've got indefinately regardless of an ever increasing population.

More people means more strain on infrastructure. It's obvious and I don't see how you can argue against a million additional people over the last five years having an impact.

speedking

Surely congestion is self regulating? When your 5 mile journey to work will take 5 hours because of 'congestion' you will go by bike, or walk, etc. If there was a convenient cheap train that took 1/2 hour then you would use that.

Many trucks travel at night to avoid busy roads. Colleagues travel by scooter because it is quicker than car. People divert off the motorway when it is solid to use the free-er flowing A-roads.

I wouldn't take a job if it took me 3 hours to get there and home. As roads get busier, that reduces the area over which I can get work. I don't need to be charged to reinforce that idea

No-one sets out to sit stationary on a motorwaay for hours. What will congestion charging actually achieve that these existing 'controls' do not?