Blair says new arrivals must conform to our society
no
16 December 2006, 02:53 PM
#128
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edinburgh (ish)
Posts: 8,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by gatty
@adlimdoes it worry you that millions think like me? We cant all be wrong.
(Albeit he didn't give them the chance to chage their mind !)
Another example - George Bush :- elected for a second term !! FFS !
17 December 2006, 11:44 AM
#129
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If someone comes to this country to work and pay his taxes in order to improve his lot then you can't knock it. Those who come here and throw themselves into the social services network at our expense are deservedly not very popular. This country is overpopulated anyway and we cannot afford uncontrolled immigration which will finally finish off our infrastrucure. Overpopulation also causes criminal activity as history tells us.
Since there are so many indigenous Brits who are only interested in getting what they can out of social services and the black economy, it is not surprising that we need the people who are prepared to work well and hard to come here and do it all for us. It all smacks of grossly inefficient and uncaring government to me.
It is certainly not fair to criticise someone out of hand just for being foreign.
Les
Since there are so many indigenous Brits who are only interested in getting what they can out of social services and the black economy, it is not surprising that we need the people who are prepared to work well and hard to come here and do it all for us. It all smacks of grossly inefficient and uncaring government to me.
It is certainly not fair to criticise someone out of hand just for being foreign.
Les
17 December 2006, 03:34 PM
#130
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: shine on you crazy diamond
Posts: 1,486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by andythejock01wrx
I remember reading about a funny looking Austrian bloke winning an election in 1933 - suggests to me tht a large number of people can still get it wrong !
(Albeit he didn't give them the chance to chage their mind !)
Another example - George Bush :- elected for a second term !! FFS !
(Albeit he didn't give them the chance to chage their mind !)
Another example - George Bush :- elected for a second term !! FFS !
were all entitled to our opinion an the current climate i still think that myself and millions of others have it right.
dont compare us to hitler, your way off.
the pc brigade and the demanding asian is driving the moderate native towards the far right.
the racist
Last edited by gatty; 17 December 2006 at 03:39 PM.
17 December 2006, 08:07 PM
#131
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edinburgh (ish)
Posts: 8,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by gatty
were all entitled to our opinion an the current climate i still think that myself and millions of others have it right.
dont compare us to hitler, your way off.
the pc brigade and the demanding asian is driving the moderate native towards the far right.
the racist
dont compare us to hitler, your way off.
the pc brigade and the demanding asian is driving the moderate native towards the far right.
the racist
17 December 2006, 09:25 PM
#132
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South London
Posts: 837
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see where Gatty is coming from. I see where Asif is coming from.
I used to live in north Leeds in very much an Asian area. Before living there I had no strong views on immigration, cultures etc... now I certainly do appreciate this colony idea in that there was definately no integration there beyond the superfical. Was subjected to racism on occassion and often looks of hatred - friend beaten up (assiliant claimed it was Jihad) - always threat of violence if you showed even the slightest lack of respect... can see exactly why someone would resent an area they knew previously ending up like this. I can also assure you that the vast majority of my neighbours up there were not wonderful people, lawers, doctors etc... this scenario is more typical of the North West.
Living in South London now and it is different in my immediate area. Asif lives in West London which is again different. Integration has been somewhat better here and most Asians I come into contact with are quite different from those that I was surrounded by in Leeds.
My point is that both gatty and Asif are right - your views are based on personal experiences and what you can relate to. Having lived all over the country I can understand why people have these different perspectives and issues with understanding where others are coming from.
I personally do feel the country has made some big mistakes with immigration although the concept of it is not wrong. While Asif is certainly right in that we should appreicate the value many immigrants have added to this country, Gatty is also right in saying that there are a great many people who do feel very dissatisfied with the direction the country is heading in. I am to a greater or lesser extent, one of them.
I also think it is such a great shame that sensible discussion on this issue long ago was thrawted by the do-gooders and PC nuts with thier shouting down of anyone who raised common sense concerns as a 'racist' - well done you lot, you prevented what would of been a very constructive debate on multi-culturalism and immigration that would of made things much better now. You have to remember that we as a nation were never asked if we wanted or really consulted on the issue of mass immigration and cultural change. It is an 'experiment' - many other attempts at creating such multi-cultural societies have ended in disaster. Globalisation is one thing - sensible policy quite another.
I used to live in north Leeds in very much an Asian area. Before living there I had no strong views on immigration, cultures etc... now I certainly do appreciate this colony idea in that there was definately no integration there beyond the superfical. Was subjected to racism on occassion and often looks of hatred - friend beaten up (assiliant claimed it was Jihad) - always threat of violence if you showed even the slightest lack of respect... can see exactly why someone would resent an area they knew previously ending up like this. I can also assure you that the vast majority of my neighbours up there were not wonderful people, lawers, doctors etc... this scenario is more typical of the North West.
Living in South London now and it is different in my immediate area. Asif lives in West London which is again different. Integration has been somewhat better here and most Asians I come into contact with are quite different from those that I was surrounded by in Leeds.
My point is that both gatty and Asif are right - your views are based on personal experiences and what you can relate to. Having lived all over the country I can understand why people have these different perspectives and issues with understanding where others are coming from.
I personally do feel the country has made some big mistakes with immigration although the concept of it is not wrong. While Asif is certainly right in that we should appreicate the value many immigrants have added to this country, Gatty is also right in saying that there are a great many people who do feel very dissatisfied with the direction the country is heading in. I am to a greater or lesser extent, one of them.
I also think it is such a great shame that sensible discussion on this issue long ago was thrawted by the do-gooders and PC nuts with thier shouting down of anyone who raised common sense concerns as a 'racist' - well done you lot, you prevented what would of been a very constructive debate on multi-culturalism and immigration that would of made things much better now. You have to remember that we as a nation were never asked if we wanted or really consulted on the issue of mass immigration and cultural change. It is an 'experiment' - many other attempts at creating such multi-cultural societies have ended in disaster. Globalisation is one thing - sensible policy quite another.
17 December 2006, 10:13 PM
#134
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edinburgh (ish)
Posts: 8,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by KiwiGTI
Unless they are Dutch.
17 December 2006, 10:20 PM
#135
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: South London
Posts: 837
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The typical Dutch person will be a muslim before too long - when that happens it will no longer be okay to criticise the Dutch. Care to draw another cartoon?
17 December 2006, 10:34 PM
#136
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Edinburgh (ish)
Posts: 8,089
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ben v7
The typical Dutch person will be a muslim before too long - when that happens it will no longer be okay to criticise the Dutch. Care to draw another cartoon?
19 December 2006, 10:34 AM
#137
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by gatty
ok asif theres nothing there i can argue with, not realy.
but how can i put it......... my family and many close friends , neighbours etc.. once lived in an area in brum slowly muslims moved in all around and very quickly the houses became scruffy the whole area got run down and now 25 years on its totally muslim?
this is the start, then you move away to other areas. by this point you have an opinion on muslims because its personnel to you.
then when you say drive through sparkhill ans see total colonisation not intergration, look i have work now but will explain well try to. make you aware why so many think like me.
good post though, positive.
but how can i put it......... my family and many close friends , neighbours etc.. once lived in an area in brum slowly muslims moved in all around and very quickly the houses became scruffy the whole area got run down and now 25 years on its totally muslim?
this is the start, then you move away to other areas. by this point you have an opinion on muslims because its personnel to you.
then when you say drive through sparkhill ans see total colonisation not intergration, look i have work now but will explain well try to. make you aware why so many think like me.
good post though, positive.
Sorry for delay in reply, been very busy - Christmas and all that.
I understand what you are saying about where you used to live and I have no argument with your personal view of what you see and your perspective on that.
I can see as to why immigrant communities congregate together, but do feel that, over time, they should start to branch out and spread around, integrating more as they do. I am sure that has happened but clearly not to a great extent.
Some would argue that they stay in those areas as they are not so welcome elsewhere, they are clearly more comfortable there.
Overall though I do feel that society's problem are the fault of society itself. Immigration clearly should have been handled better, with what appears to be two opposing points of view both having their way to some extent.
On the one hand those who advocated as much immigration as possible, with little or no checks, guidelines, or rules, apart from the one which encouraged immigration from Commonwealth Countries. This has been the case for over fifty years. I can't think of a specific individual or group advocating this, started long before my time.
Then on the other hand you have Enoch Powell and his ilk whose advocation of strong controls on immigration came too late, was a bit knee jerk, and actually made the problem much worse.
I will illustrate this with the case of my Father, who was a very typical immigrant here from Pakistan in the early sixties. Having found it very easy to come over here and get work, he settled in nicely, but always with the intention of going back home. However, as the times changed he realised, like many others, that if he left to go back home, even for a visit, he might then find it very difficult to get back here.
He therefore found it easier to instead bring his family over, which consisted on my Mother and two elder brothers. He then took the natural next steps of finding a house to buy and expanding his family.
He never would have done this had he felt fully free to come and go. After a few more years he would have probably gone back of his own accord, that's where his heart was.
The point is that a decent middle ground is needed. My old Man never received any benefits, never knew what a council house was or how to apply for one, never took dole etc and that was how he raised his five kids.
If these things are offered then they will be taken in my opinion.
Govt. benefits may be a sign of a civilised society, but I think leave the money is peoples' pockets and let them make their own choices.
Anyway, going off topic there slightly, but in summary let people come here and work, but don't give them a penny, let them earn it.
If they need health care, after their first 4 hours or so of A&E, that all should be entitled to, ask for their medical insurance details. If they don't have any ask them to get someone to collect them as they are out of the door.
Never give someone a council house, in fact, never give ANYONE a council house.
These sorts of things should apply to all in my opinion not just immigrants. We have created a Nanny State, that needs more people who need nannying in order to perpetuate itself - a vicious circle in my opinion, made even worse by encouraging new immigrants/bogus asylum seekers here to need nannying.
VERY WRONG!
Going back to your post above, in my opinion, the causes of what you are unhappy with is societal - not the fault of a particular group of people within society. All have some element of responsibility, from the Govt. seeking to control people through Govt. intervention in all matters, to the people themselves, letting the Govt. do that.
Asif
19 December 2006, 10:36 AM
#138
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Leslie
If someone comes to this country to work and pay his taxes in order to improve his lot then you can't knock it. Those who come here and throw themselves into the social services network at our expense are deservedly not very popular. This country is overpopulated anyway and we cannot afford uncontrolled immigration which will finally finish off our infrastrucure. Overpopulation also causes criminal activity as history tells us.
Since there are so many indigenous Brits who are only interested in getting what they can out of social services and the black economy, it is not surprising that we need the people who are prepared to work well and hard to come here and do it all for us. It all smacks of grossly inefficient and uncaring government to me.
It is certainly not fair to criticise someone out of hand just for being foreign.
Les
Since there are so many indigenous Brits who are only interested in getting what they can out of social services and the black economy, it is not surprising that we need the people who are prepared to work well and hard to come here and do it all for us. It all smacks of grossly inefficient and uncaring government to me.
It is certainly not fair to criticise someone out of hand just for being foreign.
Les
19 December 2006, 10:45 AM
#139
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ben v7
I see where Gatty is coming from. I see where Asif is coming from.
I used to live in north Leeds in very much an Asian area. Before living there I had no strong views on immigration, cultures etc... now I certainly do appreciate this colony idea in that there was definately no integration there beyond the superfical. Was subjected to racism on occassion and often looks of hatred - friend beaten up (assiliant claimed it was Jihad) - always threat of violence if you showed even the slightest lack of respect... can see exactly why someone would resent an area they knew previously ending up like this. I can also assure you that the vast majority of my neighbours up there were not wonderful people, lawers, doctors etc... this scenario is more typical of the North West.
Living in South London now and it is different in my immediate area. Asif lives in West London which is again different. Integration has been somewhat better here and most Asians I come into contact with are quite different from those that I was surrounded by in Leeds.
My point is that both gatty and Asif are right - your views are based on personal experiences and what you can relate to. Having lived all over the country I can understand why people have these different perspectives and issues with understanding where others are coming from.
I personally do feel the country has made some big mistakes with immigration although the concept of it is not wrong. While Asif is certainly right in that we should appreicate the value many immigrants have added to this country, Gatty is also right in saying that there are a great many people who do feel very dissatisfied with the direction the country is heading in. I am to a greater or lesser extent, one of them.
I also think it is such a great shame that sensible discussion on this issue long ago was thrawted by the do-gooders and PC nuts with thier shouting down of anyone who raised common sense concerns as a 'racist' - well done you lot, you prevented what would of been a very constructive debate on multi-culturalism and immigration that would of made things much better now. You have to remember that we as a nation were never asked if we wanted or really consulted on the issue of mass immigration and cultural change. It is an 'experiment' - many other attempts at creating such multi-cultural societies have ended in disaster. Globalisation is one thing - sensible policy quite another.
I used to live in north Leeds in very much an Asian area. Before living there I had no strong views on immigration, cultures etc... now I certainly do appreciate this colony idea in that there was definately no integration there beyond the superfical. Was subjected to racism on occassion and often looks of hatred - friend beaten up (assiliant claimed it was Jihad) - always threat of violence if you showed even the slightest lack of respect... can see exactly why someone would resent an area they knew previously ending up like this. I can also assure you that the vast majority of my neighbours up there were not wonderful people, lawers, doctors etc... this scenario is more typical of the North West.
Living in South London now and it is different in my immediate area. Asif lives in West London which is again different. Integration has been somewhat better here and most Asians I come into contact with are quite different from those that I was surrounded by in Leeds.
My point is that both gatty and Asif are right - your views are based on personal experiences and what you can relate to. Having lived all over the country I can understand why people have these different perspectives and issues with understanding where others are coming from.
I personally do feel the country has made some big mistakes with immigration although the concept of it is not wrong. While Asif is certainly right in that we should appreicate the value many immigrants have added to this country, Gatty is also right in saying that there are a great many people who do feel very dissatisfied with the direction the country is heading in. I am to a greater or lesser extent, one of them.
I also think it is such a great shame that sensible discussion on this issue long ago was thrawted by the do-gooders and PC nuts with thier shouting down of anyone who raised common sense concerns as a 'racist' - well done you lot, you prevented what would of been a very constructive debate on multi-culturalism and immigration that would of made things much better now. You have to remember that we as a nation were never asked if we wanted or really consulted on the issue of mass immigration and cultural change. It is an 'experiment' - many other attempts at creating such multi-cultural societies have ended in disaster. Globalisation is one thing - sensible policy quite another.
I don't believe that immigration is an experiment, I think it is an economic reality and the Human way. Homo Sapiens would probably have died out thousands of years ago had they not had the urge to move and expand that has led to us being the dominant species on the planet.
Bring on the sensible discussion!
Asif
19 December 2006, 10:47 AM
#140
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: God's promised land
Posts: 80,907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pretending all humans are the same species is the first mistake. Just because we're supposedly more intelligent than the rest of the animal kingdom doesn't prevent our instinctive reactions to integration coming out when we feel threatened. You can't just lump people from different cultures together and then wonder why it isn't all going swimmingly.
19 December 2006, 11:10 AM
#141
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TelBoy
Pretending all humans are the same species is the first mistake. Just because we're supposedly more intelligent than the rest of the animal kingdom doesn't prevent our instinctive reactions to integration coming out when we feel threatened. You can't just lump people from different cultures together and then wonder why it isn't all going swimmingly.
Just developed differently over time.
Feeling threated as you say, is clearly an emotion we all share. Learning to get along together may be an effort, but a worthwhile one in my opinion.
Environmental factors play an important part in how people feel and in today's society, what the media tells us seems to have an effect also.
Asif
19 December 2006, 11:15 AM
#142
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: God's promised land
Posts: 80,907
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's the dilution of national identity that grates most for most people, Asif. You're right, many immigrants DO make a positive contribution to this country.
But do i want to see Islamic mosques all over the place? Nope, absolutely not.
But do i want to see Islamic mosques all over the place? Nope, absolutely not.
19 December 2006, 12:45 PM
#143
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by TelBoy
It's the dilution of national identity that grates most for most people, Asif. You're right, many immigrants DO make a positive contribution to this country.
But do i want to see Islamic mosques all over the place? Nope, absolutely not.
But do i want to see Islamic mosques all over the place? Nope, absolutely not.
However, is the preservation of the national identity the responsibility of the Govt. alone or of everyone's? Why is the national identity the next guys problem? Surely it is up to each and every individual to show their Britishness?
No one is stopping you being British, no one is stopping flag waving, eating sausages, fish and chips etc etc. Further the Govt. or anyone else would never succeed in stopping those things anyway.
Is this 'dilution' you mention due to immigrants or Muslims entering this country etc. or of ordinary British citizens abandoning the 'old ways' and adopting a new consumerism, exercising their right to free choice?
Is not the Church part of British identity? But people would rather worship Mammon these days.
Traditional class structure, an essential part of British identity in this country is no more. Is this a good or a bad thing?
People do question the motives and actions of the Govt. much more these days. Should people just shut up and do what they are told, under the premise of 'for King/Queen and Country'? Or should they question the validity of what the Govt. decides to do? (didn't stop Iraq but oh well!)
The single largest erosion of British culture, as I see it, is from abroad but not from the East, but from the USA.
How we speak our own language, how we spell it, how we eat, how we spend our leisure time, what we watch, what we listen to (I have the White Stripes on in the background while I type this) and Govt policy and expenditure seems to be heavily influenced from the US.
Looking in history, the demise of the British Empire was down more to the US, in my opinion, than anything else.
I am not anti American by the way, as like many other Brits I love to go there for my holidays.
All these things I mention are just off the top of my head and have sweet FA to do with immigrants and Muslims in my opinion, that is just a symptom of the problems here.
It is entirely up to British society itself as to how these problems are resolved.
Asif
19 December 2006, 06:54 PM
#144
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: shine on you crazy diamond
Posts: 1,486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you keep getting non brits and brainwashed human rights actavists coming on here trying to put us all to right giving us educated waffle blah blah blah.
dont tell me i should think a certain way . I have English roots as far back as England has been civalized be it norman saxon whatever....not watered down in any way. there are still millions who think the way i do . its no coincedence that since the asian invasion and the uprise of pc this country is in a right mess and it is a mess , this is mine and so many others opinion.
there are decent non brits but dont think your a brit because your a decent sort.
if your truly decent and dont want start setting up mosques everywhere and colonising areas and bringing them down etc ... then come in and contribute.
so many have issues with muslims in this country you have to ask why? there are **** loads who think like me and many more who think even more extreme......why? we cant all be wrong and you will find it hard to try and convince a true brit any different.
dont tell me i should think a certain way . I have English roots as far back as England has been civalized be it norman saxon whatever....not watered down in any way. there are still millions who think the way i do . its no coincedence that since the asian invasion and the uprise of pc this country is in a right mess and it is a mess , this is mine and so many others opinion.
there are decent non brits but dont think your a brit because your a decent sort.
if your truly decent and dont want start setting up mosques everywhere and colonising areas and bringing them down etc ... then come in and contribute.
so many have issues with muslims in this country you have to ask why? there are **** loads who think like me and many more who think even more extreme......why? we cant all be wrong and you will find it hard to try and convince a true brit any different.
19 December 2006, 07:21 PM
#145
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,057
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by gatty
you keep getting non brits and brainwashed human rights actavists coming on here trying to put us all to right giving us educated waffle blah blah blah.
dont tell me i should think a certain way . I have English roots as far back as England has been civalized be it norman saxon whatever....not watered down in any way. there are still millions who think the way i do . its no coincedence that since the asian invasion and the uprise of pc this country is in a right mess and it is a mess , this is mine and so many others opinion.
there are decent non brits but dont think your a brit because your a decent sort.
if your truly decent and dont want start setting up mosques everywhere and colonising areas and bringing them down etc ... then come in and contribute.
so many have issues with muslims in this country you have to ask why? there are **** loads who think like me and many more who think even more extreme......why? we cant all be wrong and you will find it hard to try and convince a true brit any different.
dont tell me i should think a certain way . I have English roots as far back as England has been civalized be it norman saxon whatever....not watered down in any way. there are still millions who think the way i do . its no coincedence that since the asian invasion and the uprise of pc this country is in a right mess and it is a mess , this is mine and so many others opinion.
there are decent non brits but dont think your a brit because your a decent sort.
if your truly decent and dont want start setting up mosques everywhere and colonising areas and bringing them down etc ... then come in and contribute.
so many have issues with muslims in this country you have to ask why? there are **** loads who think like me and many more who think even more extreme......why? we cant all be wrong and you will find it hard to try and convince a true brit any different.
Is that post directed at me? That's not very clear.
I am British mate, whether you like it or not.
Asif
19 December 2006, 07:44 PM
#147
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: shine on you crazy diamond
Posts: 1,486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by AsifScoob
Gatty,
Is that post directed at me? That's not very clear.
I am British mate, whether you like it or not.
Asif
Is that post directed at me? That's not very clear.
I am British mate, whether you like it or not.
Asif
sorry if you feel that you are a brit but look deeper and you will see that your not, you might be a nice fella who contributes but your not a brit. not in so many native Brits eyes . it dont matter what all you minority ethnics feel its what the majority think.
