Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Agree, but is the tread starter going to go on track or not? We don't know.

So I thought I'd make the point to aid his decision to the question posed

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

mine was on the dyno on a day with ambient 27C (fairly warm) and was within a few bhp of what I had anticipated through Delta Dash Road Dyno. Turned out 333bhp and 356 lb/ft with a TMIC

GazTheHat

Waits with interest...

Tidgy

for a wuick run, but once heat soak start to set in do you realy think you'd see that sort of power?

Butty

iTrader: (2)

That's a problem relating to a poor rolling road air fans - nothing to do with abilities of ICs.
Air to air ICs can only remove heat from a charge if there is a sufficient cooling air flow to dump it into.

nick

Tidgy

tis a very very good point that, however, the effects will be much more dramatic on af ront mount because of how much is getting air flow on the front mount once rolling

Butty

iTrader: (2)

Heat soak is an issue of the IC absorbing heat when stationary (esp. rolling roads), not when doing prolonged WOT.
The TMIC then spends its effort in removing heat from its own body before concentrating on cooling the air charge.

I've also done some charge temp readings and Delta dash runs in the summer up to 26 deg C ambient on extended WOT and never seen above 40 deg.

Nick

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

nope that was after idling for 1 hour and this was the third run.

Butty

iTrader: (2)

Getting back to a neglected 2.5STi, what power do you want reach and what are you going to use your car for?
Perhaps an cost effective solution can then be suggested before going down a dogmatic route.

nick

Tidgy

so the question then is, what would it be running if the cooling was etter?

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

A very good question

The results on that day were pretty much bang on what I had seen on the open road using DD road dyno on a similar temp day on my 2.5.

By the tone of the thread starters question he is looking for pure power from a FMIC - doing that alone, he would be disappointed. It would need mapping aswell.

From Scoobyclinics website (all figs are plus vat):

-the cost of the IC is either £550 or £850 fitted
- induction kit alone (as specified in the test) is £105 (dont know what fitting cost is) (but this will be sucking hot air from the engine bay in so extra work would be required to get cold air to it)
- dump valve (which they say is required - £130 or £160 fitted ?)
- remap £650

But as the article says - the injectors are then running at 103% duty cycle so:
- fuel pump would be needed £165
- Fuel pressure regulator £225
- injectors may need looking at if sufficient fuelling cant be got from pump and FPR - £400

If you factor in the hardware costs, fitting time and then a remap after that you are talking the best part of £2500 to get it fixed and running without lag. In the article they also had to replace the battery with a small one and relocate certain parts to make it fit... all adding to the expense.

That doesnt look like it will fit the bill when asking "what's the best (cheapest) fmic?" is.

swisstonihasher

Cost apart you only have to look at the cooling surface area of a FMIC compared to a TMIC, the front bumper area allows so much more cool air to flow through the fins than the scoop (remember the scoop limits the amount of cool air that flows over the whole TMIC face/fins). Thats simple physics I guess - this is something a RR fan wouldn't be able to replicate if you were doing 100 mph down a road +. Also, the TMIC has a restriction the other side to some extent, ie air flow then slows (back pressure) because of the gearbox etc behind the IC's fins.

IC water spray makes little difference but can drop temps by a couple of deg's on a FMIC (as mine does on hot days) and more on a TMIC since the temps are higher to start with.

From my experience, I found a decent improvement going from std wrx scoop and IC to Sti scoop and APS large TMIC, although on hot days the difference just didn't feel like much if at all. Def idle temps (heat soak) was down but still not great.

Now running Hyperflow FMIC (needs cutting of bumper to fit new age but no extra holes in wings etc) with hybrid K&N cold air feed in wing - temps never get over 25 - 35 degs even with 1.6-1.65 bar on a big hybrid turbo/2.5L! That's with a metal temp probe going through the samco pre inlet manifold hose (prob best reading location possible?).

Since I've done the "upgrades" process I must admit I'd not go back to a TMIC at all as I wouldn't want the worry of heat soak when idle (especially in long traffic queues) and then to find you've got a nova boy wanting a race...FMIC means no high temps/det issues for 20-30 mins from idle! There is a difference in driving style slightly but its "change" and its something you get used to. Plus, even on warm days the car goes like stink with FMIC all day long, no ecu ignition retard going on there.

So, to end, I'd recommend....buy bigger TMIC if running 300+ bhp with bigger scoop, 400+ (maybe less depending on turbo size and performance) def FMIC!

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

An intercooler does not want an intake the same size as the actual core, it ideally needs to be somwhat smaller and be ducted correctly and sealed to the core (something the front bumper does not do). Ideally the intake area needs to be 30-60% of the core area.

Interesting article, the test of an STi IC would have been interesting as well as another front mount rather than the scoobylinic one being tested at scoobyclinic on a car with big scoobyclinic decals .... not implying anything there at all . Maybe one of the £350 ones from flat4online?

Tony.

GazTheHat

...and the Daddy, APS DR-725.

andy97

iTrader: (1)

My car was able to run 3 degrees more advance with a front mount compared to sti 4 top mount@ 1.2 bar(worth about 30bhp). I suffered from heat soak in the summer months, was ok in winter, but thats no fun. With the front mount Im able to run more boost and have no problems in the summer with heat soak. I havent noticed any increase in lag, well worth going for a front mount if your going for over 320 bhp

fwdnutz

hi guys i will add my two Penny's worth if that is ok? as for argument with TMIC and FMIC i have to say from experience that the FMIC is the way to go! i am fortunate enough to have dropped lucky and picked up a HKS intercooler and pipework which i have to say is one of the best fitting kits i have ever come across did hardly any work other than cutting bumper grill out etc.
since fitting to my car a 95 jdm wrx import i have been able to release the full potential of the td05 safely as i had my crap TMIC b4 and the fffing thing was well hot after a blast,
try it for yourselves do a good run at full boost and then pullover and put your hand on the intercooler pipe coming from the turbo and then on the intake pipe and see the difference, what you have to remember is that when air is compressed by any means it generates heat (feel an air compressor cylinder after its been running to see what i mean!) therefore add the heat of the turbo to the compressed air heat and then the heat soak from the engine all ands to a less dense charge and more chance of detonation in the cylinders! ok there is a slight increase in lag with a FMIC due to air travelling further distance but once up to full boost you have a very safe environment to work with!,
i have fitted a detalarm from ROOJAI and since fitting FMIC i have seen only two green leds illuminate under hard boost with the occasional 0range flicker every now and again compared to b4 i was getting high levels of det activity when engine was HOT! with TMIC, just look at the facts already posted and the fact that all the bigboy tuners (1000BHP skylines/supras/evo`s) all use FMIC surely that has to tell you something subaru as much as i love them are still using an old idea they should have ditched years ago!

Roojai

nice post fwdnutz, that is exactly the kind of thing that the detalarm can show, enabling much more confidence in your set-up.