Why don't many scooby owners track 'em?
02 January 2007, 10:34 AM
#121
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Originally Posted by dynamix
hmmmm 
yes his statement is missing something! A comparison, not good compared to? What is the benchmark?
For a performance analysis what is the desired time for a lap?
Cost, is that cost of car v lap time, again what is the benchmark, what is a good time?
Or do you mean cost to get the car to a good level of performance? If so compared to what car, metro then scoob is great, v a gt2 then scoob isnt good.
If its cost of the car and performance from it as standard, then again compared to what?
02 January 2007, 11:11 AM
#123
My 2p's worth......
You can enjoy track days for as little or as great as you are prepared to spend.
This is all about having fun foremost!
"Track Days" are totally different to "Competition", so trying to combine the both in one encompassing activity is useless.
Whether a track day is cheap is down to the individual as regards to what they see as being expensive or cheap. Regardless, you still have to take in to account:
Entry Fee
Insurance
Petrol
Fluid changes
At the bare minimum. For a track day, whilst tyres and brakes will be worn they can normally be set aside normal running costs (albeit have a shorter life).
I was in a fortunate position in 2005 where I was able to purchase a very nice MY03 Spec C to modify for track/competition orientation. The car plus the work that has gone in to it has cost in excess of £30k to date, but I now have a car that is competitive in competition, but is still legal for the road.
The car has been maintained "what ever the cost", but apart from normal, common sense maintenace has not cost alot to run (at this level). It has completed 5 competition events, but is probably better maintained and reliable than most road only cars. To assume a car that has been on track to be less reliable or not as attractive as a car that has only been used on the roads, is not utter fact.
Obviously a lot of people can not afford or justify this route that I have taken, but that does not mean they can not take part in "Track Day" type events and HAVE FUN!
With last years ScoobyNetLive, we gave the oppourtunity for people to sample this kind of environment (mix of track day and competition) with the least risk possible (there will always be risk - Motorsport Can Be Dangerous). Feedback from people that tried this was very very positive.
Obviously it is horses for courses and it is not everyone's cuppa tea. But once I did my first event I was hooked!
Remember this is not about how good a driver you are (as regards to track days), it is about having fun. All those that think they are Ayton Senna and already do track days, move on and do competition..... perhaps then you may find out your car or driving ability is not as good as you thought!
You can enjoy track days for as little or as great as you are prepared to spend.
This is all about having fun foremost!
"Track Days" are totally different to "Competition", so trying to combine the both in one encompassing activity is useless.
Whether a track day is cheap is down to the individual as regards to what they see as being expensive or cheap. Regardless, you still have to take in to account:
Entry Fee
Insurance
Petrol
Fluid changes
At the bare minimum. For a track day, whilst tyres and brakes will be worn they can normally be set aside normal running costs (albeit have a shorter life).
I was in a fortunate position in 2005 where I was able to purchase a very nice MY03 Spec C to modify for track/competition orientation. The car plus the work that has gone in to it has cost in excess of £30k to date, but I now have a car that is competitive in competition, but is still legal for the road.
The car has been maintained "what ever the cost", but apart from normal, common sense maintenace has not cost alot to run (at this level). It has completed 5 competition events, but is probably better maintained and reliable than most road only cars. To assume a car that has been on track to be less reliable or not as attractive as a car that has only been used on the roads, is not utter fact.
Obviously a lot of people can not afford or justify this route that I have taken, but that does not mean they can not take part in "Track Day" type events and HAVE FUN!
With last years ScoobyNetLive, we gave the oppourtunity for people to sample this kind of environment (mix of track day and competition) with the least risk possible (there will always be risk - Motorsport Can Be Dangerous). Feedback from people that tried this was very very positive.
Obviously it is horses for courses and it is not everyone's cuppa tea. But once I did my first event I was hooked!
Remember this is not about how good a driver you are (as regards to track days), it is about having fun. All those that think they are Ayton Senna and already do track days, move on and do competition..... perhaps then you may find out your car or driving ability is not as good as you thought!
02 January 2007, 11:35 AM
#124
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I would never want to push my road car 100% on a track.
Put me in a kart.... well thats a different story.
I got my racing license 3 years ago and did a few Formula Ford races up at the BRDC at silverstone.
Much, much more fun than any track day I have ever been to.
So for me, I don't track my Impreza because when compared to say, karting or a proper racing car (buckmore park comes to mind, got a session there next sunday!), it just isn't as much fun.
Plus, I get fed up with schumacher wanabe's!
If you're all driving the same machine, there can be no excuses.... and only one winner.......which I have to say.... is usually me!
Put me in a kart.... well thats a different story.
I got my racing license 3 years ago and did a few Formula Ford races up at the BRDC at silverstone.
Much, much more fun than any track day I have ever been to.
So for me, I don't track my Impreza because when compared to say, karting or a proper racing car (buckmore park comes to mind, got a session there next sunday!), it just isn't as much fun.
Plus, I get fed up with schumacher wanabe's!
If you're all driving the same machine, there can be no excuses.... and only one winner.......which I have to say.... is usually me!
02 January 2007, 11:47 AM
#125
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Originally Posted by chrispurvis100
I would never want to push my road car 100% on a track.
Put me in a kart.... well thats a different story.
I got my racing license 3 years ago and did a few Formula Ford races up at the BRDC at silverstone.
Much, much more fun than any track day I have ever been to.
So for me, I don't track my Impreza because when compared to say, karting or a proper racing car (buckmore park comes to mind, got a session there next sunday!), it just isn't as much fun.
Plus, I get fed up with schumacher wanabe's!
If you're all driving the same machine, there can be no excuses.... and only one winner.......which I have to say.... is usually me!
Put me in a kart.... well thats a different story.
I got my racing license 3 years ago and did a few Formula Ford races up at the BRDC at silverstone.
Much, much more fun than any track day I have ever been to.
So for me, I don't track my Impreza because when compared to say, karting or a proper racing car (buckmore park comes to mind, got a session there next sunday!), it just isn't as much fun.
Plus, I get fed up with schumacher wanabe's!
If you're all driving the same machine, there can be no excuses.... and only one winner.......which I have to say.... is usually me!
02 January 2007, 12:01 PM
#127
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I'm definately going to try and get involved in a track day this year (when its dry- im no expert driver!
). My best mate has been on a few and thoroughly recommends them!
Roll on summer
Lee
). My best mate has been on a few and thoroughly recommends them!Roll on summer
Lee
02 January 2007, 12:07 PM
#128
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Originally Posted by chrispurvis100
I would never want to push my road car 100% on a track.
Put me in a kart.... well thats a different story.
I got my racing license 3 years ago and did a few Formula Ford races up at the BRDC at silverstone.
Much, much more fun than any track day I have ever been to.
So for me, I don't track my Impreza because when compared to say, karting or a proper racing car (buckmore park comes to mind, got a session there next sunday!), it just isn't as much fun.
Plus, I get fed up with schumacher wanabe's!
If you're all driving the same machine, there can be no excuses.... and only one winner.......which I have to say.... is usually me!
Put me in a kart.... well thats a different story.
I got my racing license 3 years ago and did a few Formula Ford races up at the BRDC at silverstone.
Much, much more fun than any track day I have ever been to.
So for me, I don't track my Impreza because when compared to say, karting or a proper racing car (buckmore park comes to mind, got a session there next sunday!), it just isn't as much fun.
Plus, I get fed up with schumacher wanabe's!
If you're all driving the same machine, there can be no excuses.... and only one winner.......which I have to say.... is usually me!
Put me in a kart and I'll push that and myself 100% (especially if its not mine) for as much as I can.
An Impreza, or any road car for that, I could not do that, I'd have to hold back for the car's (and my wallet's) sake for mechnical sympathy. I'd still have fun, but not anywhere near as much as track oriented veichle, simply due to the fact you are so much more connected to the road and have to do so more work and focus you mind to push hard (no PAS, No assisted brakes, **** 1" off the floor etc..can't beat it IMO).
02 January 2007, 12:24 PM
#129
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Originally Posted by Shark Man
Agree 100%
Put me in a kart and I'll push that and myself 100% (especially if its not mine) for as much as I can.
An Impreza, or any road car for that, I could not do that, I'd have to hold back for the car's (and my wallet's) sake for mechnical sympathy. I'd still have fun, but not anywhere near as much as track oriented veichle, simply due to the fact you are so much more connected to the road and have to do so more work and focus you mind to push hard (no PAS, No assisted brakes, **** 1" off the floor etc..can't beat it IMO).
Put me in a kart and I'll push that and myself 100% (especially if its not mine) for as much as I can.
An Impreza, or any road car for that, I could not do that, I'd have to hold back for the car's (and my wallet's) sake for mechnical sympathy. I'd still have fun, but not anywhere near as much as track oriented veichle, simply due to the fact you are so much more connected to the road and have to do so more work and focus you mind to push hard (no PAS, No assisted brakes, **** 1" off the floor etc..can't beat it IMO).
put me in someone elses scoob on a track and i would give it 110%, lol!
It does seem to come down to money for most people tbh! Well that and fear of what ifs and the potential cost!
Its the same reason at all levels of motorsport, costs reduce participants!
02 January 2007, 12:26 PM
#130
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Originally Posted by ARM-Scooby
put me in someone elses scoob on a track and i would give it 110%, lol!
It does seem to come down to money for most people tbh! Well that and fear of what ifs and the potential cost!
Its the same reason at all levels of motorsport, costs reduce participants!
It does seem to come down to money for most people tbh! Well that and fear of what ifs and the potential cost!
Its the same reason at all levels of motorsport, costs reduce participants!
02 January 2007, 12:38 PM
#131
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Originally Posted by ARM-Scooby
yes his statement is missing something! A comparison, not good compared to? What is the benchmark?
For a performance analysis what is the desired time for a lap?
Cost, is that cost of car v lap time, again what is the benchmark, what is a good time?
Or do you mean cost to get the car to a good level of performance? If so compared to what car, metro then scoob is great, v a gt2 then scoob isnt good.
If its cost of the car and performance from it as standard, then again compared to what?
For a performance analysis what is the desired time for a lap?
Cost, is that cost of car v lap time, again what is the benchmark, what is a good time?
Or do you mean cost to get the car to a good level of performance? If so compared to what car, metro then scoob is great, v a gt2 then scoob isnt good.
If its cost of the car and performance from it as standard, then again compared to what?
4WD saloons such as Scoobs and Evo's were primarily made for rallying, and anyone with experience of using them on track will always say they are better suited to non track work.
Lap time has nothing to do with it, trackdays are for fun, sprints are for lap times. It should be purely based on enjoyment.
You can mod a Scoob to 400bhp, fit trackday suspension, tyres etc but the costs of both wear and tear, and fuel consumption are going to be high.
Going from the defensive line you're obviously taking, and using the Metro as an example you could have just as much fun in a metro, for a fraction of the cost.
Annual costs of using say a Radical, Westfield, tracked up hatch, or something equally light, fun and cheap to setup will be much less than using your modded Scoob.
As for whether a Metro is any good on track, have a look here
Reyland Metro VS Cossies - Google Video
Talking costs, if you hammered a Scoob on track and killed the tyres and brakes it would cost quite a bit to sort - If I did the same with my 205 it would cost £80 for full set of discs/pads, and £30 a corner for tyres. Cost vs performance/fun factor
I've been on this scene long enough not to have to slate Scoobs and Evo's as I love them, they are capable, but I also know enough about which cars perform well on track, having been round most tracks in most cars.
If you want to talk lap times, as though trackdays are some sort of competition, then the car used means very little - its all about the driver.
02 January 2007, 12:45 PM
#132
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Originally Posted by dynamix
I think he is trying to rationalise to himself as to why he didnt enjoy the track day that he says he did.
It was also an airfield so my new tyres were completely chewed after an hour, adding to the costs.
My next trackday will be in in the next 8 weeks in the 205, and should be much better.
02 January 2007, 12:49 PM
#133
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Originally Posted by ARM-Scooby
no he is summing up responses! His orignal question was why mod/ upgrade if your never going to fully use it to its potential, in a legal environment.
Its all black and white if you read the whole post!
Its all black and white if you read the whole post!
Modding a car, if done yourself can be enjoyable and rewarding, you don't have to drive at 110% to enjoy the mods.
Having spent a silly amount on my car, I probably won't see many miles in it now due to impending family etc, but I could afford to do it and enjoyed it immensely. Plus its still worth a fair bit now so I won't lose much money on it either.
The rule is not 100% on track, and driving miss daisy on the road, there are still plenty of nice country roads you can enjoy without being dangerous and/or going over the limit, though I accept in a Scoob the limits are much higher.
02 January 2007, 01:01 PM
#134
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Originally Posted by Dream Weaver
I'm talking about costs of trackdays vs the performance/enjoyment you get from a specific vehicle.
4WD saloons such as Scoobs and Evo's were primarily made for rallying, and anyone with experience of using them on track will always say they are better suited to non track work.
Lap time has nothing to do with it, trackdays are for fun, sprints are for lap times. It should be purely based on enjoyment.
You can mod a Scoob to 400bhp, fit trackday suspension, tyres etc but the costs of both wear and tear, and fuel consumption are going to be high.
Going from the defensive line you're obviously taking, and using the Metro as an example you could have just as much fun in a metro, for a fraction of the cost.
Annual costs of using say a Radical, Westfield, tracked up hatch, or something equally light, fun and cheap to setup will be much less than using your modded Scoob.
As for whether a Metro is any good on track, have a look here
Reyland Metro VS Cossies - Google Video
Talking costs, if you hammered a Scoob on track and killed the tyres and brakes it would cost quite a bit to sort - If I did the same with my 205 it would cost £80 for full set of discs/pads, and £30 a corner for tyres. Cost vs performance/fun factor
I've been on this scene long enough not to have to slate Scoobs and Evo's as I love them, they are capable, but I also know enough about which cars perform well on track, having been round most tracks in most cars.
If you want to talk lap times, as though trackdays are some sort of competition, then the car used means very little - its all about the driver.
4WD saloons such as Scoobs and Evo's were primarily made for rallying, and anyone with experience of using them on track will always say they are better suited to non track work.
Lap time has nothing to do with it, trackdays are for fun, sprints are for lap times. It should be purely based on enjoyment.
You can mod a Scoob to 400bhp, fit trackday suspension, tyres etc but the costs of both wear and tear, and fuel consumption are going to be high.
Going from the defensive line you're obviously taking, and using the Metro as an example you could have just as much fun in a metro, for a fraction of the cost.
Annual costs of using say a Radical, Westfield, tracked up hatch, or something equally light, fun and cheap to setup will be much less than using your modded Scoob.
As for whether a Metro is any good on track, have a look here
Reyland Metro VS Cossies - Google Video
Talking costs, if you hammered a Scoob on track and killed the tyres and brakes it would cost quite a bit to sort - If I did the same with my 205 it would cost £80 for full set of discs/pads, and £30 a corner for tyres. Cost vs performance/fun factor
I've been on this scene long enough not to have to slate Scoobs and Evo's as I love them, they are capable, but I also know enough about which cars perform well on track, having been round most tracks in most cars.
If you want to talk lap times, as though trackdays are some sort of competition, then the car used means very little - its all about the driver.
not a defensive line at all (ffs SN mentality coming through in your statement), just a valid point tbh. You just stated something that didnt make sense to me. I was just using an example as i wanted my point to come across correctly.
Not having a dedicated track car and never having done a full on track day i dont really have any start point to base my scoob against, so wondered where you were coming from. A cost/ performance statement suggests cost or performance which didnt make sense to me! The other information furthered to back up your statement to, thanks!
The first line of your response pretty much clears it all up for me mate. I just didnt know what you meant!
Surely people into lap times want to be going to a proper MSA car club where people are put into groups against similar drivers and cars. Then they can see how good they are against people of their calibre.
02 January 2007, 01:03 PM
#135
Originally Posted by Dream Weaver
4WD saloons such as Scoobs and Evo's were primarily made for rallying, and anyone with experience of using them on track will always say they are better suited to non track work.
I think the opinion of some that a 4WD 4dr saloon can not be competitive against other racing orientated road cars on track is not correct. Things have moved on.
02 January 2007, 01:04 PM
#136
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Originally Posted by Dream Weaver
And just to answer this one, how about because they can?
Modding a car, if done yourself can be enjoyable and rewarding, you don't have to drive at 110% to enjoy the mods.
Having spent a silly amount on my car, I probably won't see many miles in it now due to impending family etc, but I could afford to do it and enjoyed it immensely. Plus its still worth a fair bit now so I won't lose much money on it either.
The rule is not 100% on track, and driving miss daisy on the road, there are still plenty of nice country roads you can enjoy without being dangerous and/or going over the limit, though I accept in a Scoob the limits are much higher.
Modding a car, if done yourself can be enjoyable and rewarding, you don't have to drive at 110% to enjoy the mods.
Having spent a silly amount on my car, I probably won't see many miles in it now due to impending family etc, but I could afford to do it and enjoyed it immensely. Plus its still worth a fair bit now so I won't lose much money on it either.
The rule is not 100% on track, and driving miss daisy on the road, there are still plenty of nice country roads you can enjoy without being dangerous and/or going over the limit, though I accept in a Scoob the limits are much higher.
crickey did you not have a good christmas?
Really not having a go mate, might have sounded a bit **** take but just stating facts. If you make a point/ statement informing people of something its worth thinking that we dont all know where your coming from!
02 January 2007, 01:15 PM
#137
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Originally Posted by Dream Weaver
And just to answer this one, how about because they can?
Modding a car, if done yourself can be enjoyable and rewarding, you don't have to drive at 110% to enjoy the mods.
Having spent a silly amount on my car, I probably won't see many miles in it now due to impending family etc, but I could afford to do it and enjoyed it immensely. Plus its still worth a fair bit now so I won't lose much money on it either.
The rule is not 100% on track, and driving miss daisy on the road, there are still plenty of nice country roads you can enjoy without being dangerous and/or going over the limit, though I accept in a Scoob the limits are much higher.
Modding a car, if done yourself can be enjoyable and rewarding, you don't have to drive at 110% to enjoy the mods.
Having spent a silly amount on my car, I probably won't see many miles in it now due to impending family etc, but I could afford to do it and enjoyed it immensely. Plus its still worth a fair bit now so I won't lose much money on it either.
The rule is not 100% on track, and driving miss daisy on the road, there are still plenty of nice country roads you can enjoy without being dangerous and/or going over the limit, though I accept in a Scoob the limits are much higher.
missed your question mate. Yes i mod and dont use the group n exhaust i have, but i changed it as i could, but more importantly because i wanted to, **** anyone else!
Its a valid point imho. Would you add a cinema to your house? Buy an industrial washing machine for you and the missus etc.
Now this may be hard for people to not go off about, but why do we mod if we arent to use it.
I turn off lights all around my house and would never spend thousands on a washing machine when a standard cheaper one would do. It does beg the question why.
For me its cause i want a loud exhaust, **** what you lot think.
You seem to care about opinions too much mate!
02 January 2007, 01:29 PM
#139
Originally Posted by Dream Weaver
I'm talking about costs of trackdays vs the performance/enjoyment you get from a specific vehicle.
4WD saloons such as Scoobs and Evo's were primarily made for rallying, and anyone with experience of using them on track will always say they are better suited to non track work.
Lap time has nothing to do with it, trackdays are for fun, sprints are for lap times. It should be purely based on enjoyment.
You can mod a Scoob to 400bhp, fit trackday suspension, tyres etc but the costs of both wear and tear, and fuel consumption are going to be high.
Going from the defensive line you're obviously taking, and using the Metro as an example you could have just as much fun in a metro, for a fraction of the cost.
Annual costs of using say a Radical, Westfield, tracked up hatch, or something equally light, fun and cheap to setup will be much less than using your modded Scoob.
As for whether a Metro is any good on track, have a look here
Reyland Metro VS Cossies - Google Video
Talking costs, if you hammered a Scoob on track and killed the tyres and brakes it would cost quite a bit to sort - If I did the same with my 205 it would cost £80 for full set of discs/pads, and £30 a corner for tyres. Cost vs performance/fun factor
I've been on this scene long enough not to have to slate Scoobs and Evo's as I love them, they are capable, but I also know enough about which cars perform well on track, having been round most tracks in most cars.
If you want to talk lap times, as though trackdays are some sort of competition, then the car used means very little - its all about the driver.
4WD saloons such as Scoobs and Evo's were primarily made for rallying, and anyone with experience of using them on track will always say they are better suited to non track work.
Lap time has nothing to do with it, trackdays are for fun, sprints are for lap times. It should be purely based on enjoyment.
You can mod a Scoob to 400bhp, fit trackday suspension, tyres etc but the costs of both wear and tear, and fuel consumption are going to be high.
Going from the defensive line you're obviously taking, and using the Metro as an example you could have just as much fun in a metro, for a fraction of the cost.
Annual costs of using say a Radical, Westfield, tracked up hatch, or something equally light, fun and cheap to setup will be much less than using your modded Scoob.
As for whether a Metro is any good on track, have a look here
Reyland Metro VS Cossies - Google Video
Talking costs, if you hammered a Scoob on track and killed the tyres and brakes it would cost quite a bit to sort - If I did the same with my 205 it would cost £80 for full set of discs/pads, and £30 a corner for tyres. Cost vs performance/fun factor
I've been on this scene long enough not to have to slate Scoobs and Evo's as I love them, they are capable, but I also know enough about which cars perform well on track, having been round most tracks in most cars.
If you want to talk lap times, as though trackdays are some sort of competition, then the car used means very little - its all about the driver.
02 January 2007, 01:40 PM
#140
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Originally Posted by webmaster
I think the opinion of some that a 4WD 4dr saloon can not be competitive against other racing orientated road cars on track is not correct. Things have moved on.
02 January 2007, 01:47 PM
#142
Originally Posted by webmaster
Mmmmm, not sure I agree with that 100%. The ones we use are primarily made for road use.
I think the opinion of some that a 4WD 4dr saloon can not be competitive against other racing orientated road cars on track is not correct. Things have moved on.
I think the opinion of some that a 4WD 4dr saloon can not be competitive against other racing orientated road cars on track is not correct. Things have moved on.
02 January 2007, 01:48 PM
#143
Originally Posted by davyboy
I'm trying to think where you would see 2WD and 4WD cars on the track at the same time.....I'd bet in most cases the rules and regs would not allow it, of course you could just be talking about comparing lap times.
02 January 2007, 02:04 PM
#145
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Originally Posted by Moley_WRX
BTCC in the early/mid 1990's when Audi used the 4wd car. They were made to carry extra weight as they were classed as superior to the FWD/RWD...and if i remember right they still won the championship
02 January 2007, 02:09 PM
#147
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Do you use it...
Did Blyton (rallycross circuit- smooth-ish) with the WYIOC in September, cost next to nothing, overtake on signal only, and 6 cars at any one time. A bale got hit and I fed mine some grass but didn't need a black flag. Car did 6 mpg and killed two front tyres hooning around, wouldn't drive like that on the road, value my licence.... It's where the car does it's thing best....
DS 2500 and a sports cat, no resonator... Only mods needed...
Yes the Evo looked fast, and a old sierra got killed, in the name of fun...
DS 2500 and a sports cat, no resonator... Only mods needed...
Yes the Evo looked fast, and a old sierra got killed, in the name of fun...
Last edited by dunx; 02 January 2007 at 02:14 PM.
02 January 2007, 02:09 PM
#148
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As rightly pointed out there were the Audi A4s in the BTCC that won the championship easily - even after they were made to pile on extra weight mid season to try and slow them down.
Then there were the "Godzilla" Nissan Skylines in the Oz champ which were about the only things that could be the Sierra Cossies at the time.
Note that both championships banned four wheel drive soon after due to their dominance
Then there were the "Godzilla" Nissan Skylines in the Oz champ which were about the only things that could be the Sierra Cossies at the time.
Note that both championships banned four wheel drive soon after due to their dominance
Originally Posted by davyboy
I'm trying to think where you would see 2WD and 4WD cars on the track at the same time.....I'd bet in most cases the rules and regs would not allow it, of course you could just be talking about comparing lap times.
02 January 2007, 02:15 PM
#149
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Originally Posted by ARM-Scooby
crickey did you not have a good christmas?
Really not having a go mate, might have sounded a bit **** take but just stating facts. If you make a point/ statement informing people of something its worth thinking that we dont all know where your coming from!
Really not having a go mate, might have sounded a bit **** take but just stating facts. If you make a point/ statement informing people of something its worth thinking that we dont all know where your coming from!
I know you weren't having a go, just trying to point out the various sides to the trackday argument based on the initial topic.
02 January 2007, 02:20 PM
#150
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A championship in the last 10 years maybe?
I remeber the Audi's too, but didn't they still win when they were only front wheel drive after 4WD was banned?
Now I've got my thinking hat on.....how about the Alfas from the mid 90's DTM races?
....whatever happened to John Bintcliffe
I remeber the Audi's too, but didn't they still win when they were only front wheel drive after 4WD was banned?
Now I've got my thinking hat on.....how about the Alfas from the mid 90's DTM races?
....whatever happened to John Bintcliffe