Andy.F

I had a similar offer recently but declined.

Have you guessed who it was yet Alan

Andy

Alan Jeffery

Hi Andy, no I haven't guessed, but then I haven't been trying to! I only know a few of the other dyno operators anyway, and it doesn't concern me.
My point was to indicate that there are plenty of reasons why any particular test might be up or down on BHP, obviously including things like faulty air temp sensors etc.
Given the opportunity to explore further when the owner actually expected more out of the car has almost always thrown up an issue. What tends to happen is that the owner goes off in a huff to the mapper, instead of checking the car out first. We see leaky boost hose connections, breather pipes off, split wastegate pipes, sticking solenoids, duff MAF's, slight plug misfires etc etc all the time. We've had loads coming in with lower than 10 to 1 AFR and low boost wondering why it doesn't go properly, and it turns out the intercooler's split or a hose is hanging off, especially with poorly fitted front mounts!
We had at least one with the handbrake shoes grabbing the drums..
Every dyno operator experiences this! It's what we do all day... The idea that a car is always guaranteed to throw up a particular figure every time you test it is ridiculous considering the number of potential problems. IF you truly have a steady state situation then fine, but at least consider the possibility that the car may be throwing a wobbly.
On one particular occasion, an Evo owner suspected his car should give more power during a dyno test. After much forum based argument, with us getting a right slagging off, it was finally proven that the car was at fault.
A subsequent intensive dyno session at our premises by the mapper concerned after we'd kissed and made up proved that our dyno and cell equipment was just fine thanks all the same.

Andy.F

We agree on that. I recall a car that was losing some 20bhp due to an undersize air filter last time I was at your place.

Do you think it is acceptable then for the dyno operator to pass judgement on a car ie "needs a remap" on the basis of a quick power run during a dyno shootout day ?

Andy

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

Not being daft here but why would you put your car on the rollers 3 times in 3 weeks (or however often you did) without changing anything on the car in the meantime.

Seem like a bit of a waste of money to me.

There are all kind of things that could rob your car of 30bhp, tyre pressures, petrol grade, IAM, heat, etc etc without even starting on whether the operator has set things up different.

Why rely on the piece of paper when as you said the car drives the same between?

Andy.F

Because someone is offering to find you bhp or not charge you ?

For what its worth, I could find any car more bhp simply by reducing the safety margins I operate with .....easy

dynamix

iTrader: (3)

I can sense the same arguments coming through again

I am glad my tuner uses common sense like you Andy and tuned the car to within safe operating limits. It isnt just a case of changing the map, it is a combination of things that amount to reducing the risks with higher tune vehicles.

Suspicion always arises when the operator starts slagging off a particular mapper/tuning company to try and promote their own services by trying to sow the seeds of doubt. And all this without knowing the history of the vehicle or the driving style/useage of a vehicle.

Still I am clueless as to why you would go on the rollers twice in 2 weeks let alone 3 times.....

WRC-T2

Hello all
It seems I was a little premature in my assumptions. The dyno that was 30 BHP down was not the same place that offers to find you more BHP/Torque than your current setup or does not charge you.
Apologies for this I "read between the lines" added 2+2 and came up with 5.75

Sorry

Allan

Andy.F

They still said the above though !

In this case it would seem it was a wise decision to run on a few sets of rollers, It would appear to have uncovered an anomaly.

I usually recommend that you try a few different makes of rolling road then take an average as the actual power your car produces.

Alan Jeffery

To start with, I wondered why Andy was taking such an interest in this one in the first place, as he didn't map the car in question, and doesn't use rolling roads! But then I realised that the weather absolutely stinks up where he is right now, and he's got nothing better to do than get on here and cause mischief. I mean, would you want to be out there trying to tune cars with the North Sea up your a--?

In all honesty, the idea that someone would deliberately try to return low figures just to try and get someone to spend money is right up there with those who believe that Di and Dodi were bumped off by Phil, the Yanks didn't land on the Moon, and 9/11 was a CIA plot. The very notion is fraught with difficulty and danger, and is a complete non-starter. I could have spent much less money, and come up with a dyno that habitually gives false high figures. I chose to buy a Dyno Dynamics machine on the basis that it gives very consistent information, and more importantly is very user friendly and clearly designed by people who tune cars.

We had issues with a car recently mapped by a well known tuner. ( not you Andy! ) This was on a FREE dyno day. Luckily, we data logged the car, and were able to show that what we said about it was absolutely correct by virtue of the data from the car's ECU, not just dyno figures. We just passed on the info, and did not suggest that we tuned it. To this day, the Man hasn't paid us a penny.
I also offered the use of our dyno free of charge to help clear up any issues.
Tell me, WTF else does one do?

Andy.F

Alan, I'm not criticising you or your set up. This car that got the 'low' result and the others I have had experience of this type stuff going on were not run at your setup.
The offer I refer to was not the one you made either.

I wish I shared your confidence in the results, the dyno is an excellent piece of kit which can accurately measure what a car will do whilst standing still in a room pushing against a brake.
The operators however are completely unregulated, any muppet with £70k could set themselves up as the latest tuning expert and give out any results they wanted.

Yes I am snowed off today ! Something that would also effect you of course as you do actually test them on the road after a dyno tune, don't you ?

Andy

bighead

iTrader: (1)

lol Andy ..I like to be a muppet with £70k

Alan Jeffery

To be honest, I'd much rather be sat up there alongside you with snow on the ground, a roaring fire and a marshmallow on a fork than running around in here. As you know, we do a lot more cars than just Subarus! As it happens it never snows down here, or only when you're about, if you recall! lol.. that was the last time we had any! We're going to start calling you "Frosty" if it happens again!

Alan Jeffery

Andy also suggested earlier that a chap went to "somewhere who doesn't do Subarus" who the hell buys a 4x4 dyno but won't do Imprezas? The muppet he was referring to possibly?
Andy's a funny guy, endless entertainment!

Andy.F

Perhaps I should rephrase it - someone with £70k to spend who lacks integrity. (or indeed simply the ability to borrow that sum)

The point I was making was that just because someone has spent a load of money on something perceived as 'good kit' doesn't necessarily make them a 'good guy'

I don't consider this thread is so much about the actual rolling roads, more the operator.

A customer of mine had his car re-tuned on a rolling road (not Alans or Allans !) back in the summer, the operator claimed to have found him something like 12 extra bhp at the time. Now its winter, the boost is spiking to the overboost cut and the turbo running into surge at lower RPM, he's back here to get it sorted out.

Thats the sort of thing that can happen when tuning for maximum power without a full understanding of what is actually going on and the effects of 'real world' all season conditions.

Andy

Alan Jeffery

Well, I think in fact most of us are aware of these issues the same as your good self. The fact of having a dyno of your very own doesn't mean you get blinkers and a sheepskin noseband with it!
I had to smile at your comment re "regulation" What organisation are you aligned with?