Why do germans make the best cars in the world....
18 January 2007, 11:35 PM
#36
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 454
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see Audilover has resorted to posting ****e in this section of scoobynet considering his name is mud (****) in other marques. With any luck he will eventually f*ck off and take his S40, transit van and merc with him.
AN S40, HE DRIVES AN S40
AN S40, HE DRIVES AN S40
18 January 2007, 11:52 PM
#37
and cleans other people's toilets
with his tongue I expect
19 January 2007, 01:01 AM
#38
Scooby Regular
I think you will find that Toyota defined efficiency and most of the modern practices of hyper efficient car manufacturing when they invented lean thinking.
The worlds first and lots of Germans begged them to teach it to them. Porsche were the first to benefit.
American cars - thats the way forward though
The worlds first and lots of Germans begged them to teach it to them. Porsche were the first to benefit.
American cars - thats the way forward though
19 January 2007, 01:03 AM
#39
Scooby Regular
In my opinion the OP is wrong, Japanese cars are now the best in the world, German car manufacturers just have the better PR companies
19 January 2007, 06:45 AM
#40
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It can be said with certainty that because of the change in methods Porsche did not go bust.
Rannoch
19 January 2007, 07:30 AM
#41
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you will find that Toyota defined efficiency and most of the modern practices of hyper efficient car manufacturing when they invented lean thinking.
The worlds first and lots of Germans begged them to teach it to them. Porsche were the first to benefit.
American cars - thats the way forward though
The worlds first and lots of Germans begged them to teach it to them. Porsche were the first to benefit.
American cars - thats the way forward though
just after the war, Japanese quality was dire, they recognised that to move forward, they needed to make radical changes....
Enter W Deming, and J Juran, an American and a Romanian, they recognised that quality by engineering and sound statistical principles was the way forward. Unfortunately the major players at that time, the USA and the UK didn't share there views, and there ideas were shunned. It was the Japanese who saw the obvious way forward, and invited Deming & Juran to Japan, to teach them there quality practices. The Japanese embraced the principles, and the rest is history.
The Japanese saw that to resolve there problems, they had to start from scratch, the growing automotive industries, the Uk and the US had, relied in inspecting out problems, as opposed analysis and engineering out the issues.
You would be surprised at how many firms today, still rely on inspection to to solve quality problems!
All Toyota do when they have issues is flood the area with engineers, each looking at a particular discipline, then by gathering data they can pinpoint and rectify the concern, the difference is when they fix the problem, they do it perminantly.
All the Germans have done is taken these principles and techniques, and applied them.
Mart
19 January 2007, 07:32 AM
#42
BANNED
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 659
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well as long as we ar enot talking merc and BMW as they seem to have taken a step back in quality. audi still make nice cars. Japanese cars are still the best when you look at the whole car market .
19 January 2007, 07:56 AM
#43
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: nix fur bremser...
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
19 January 2007, 09:08 AM
#44
I think mercedes' are amazing. Only mercedes could get a 2 tonne convertible around the 'ring in under 8 mins. Now that is amazing.
Boy we sure were lucky the yanks bailed us out in the 2nd world war as otherwise we'd all be speaking german by now. Infact that would probably be a good thing as then this country would still have plenty of good manufacturers around.
Boy we sure were lucky the yanks bailed us out in the 2nd world war as otherwise we'd all be speaking german by now. Infact that would probably be a good thing as then this country would still have plenty of good manufacturers around.
And as already said "The Yanks" are now building German cars, BMW, Daimler Chrysler (Mercedes to the unknowing), even Mexicans and Brazilians build VW's
And the 3 Series outsold the Mondeo last year............come on Mondeo man make a comeback!!!
Last edited by The Trooper 1815; 19 January 2007 at 09:13 AM.
19 January 2007, 09:09 AM
#45
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,490
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The BMW obsession is almost comical.Though I'm sure BMW don't mind a few brain washed UK residents bringing a few quid in.
19 January 2007, 09:14 AM
#48
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: "Comfortably Numb" since Aug 2003
Posts: 17,450
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think mercedes' are amazing. Only mercedes could get a 2 tonne convertible around the 'ring in under 8 mins. Now that is amazing.
Boy we sure were lucky the yanks bailed us out in the 2nd world war as otherwise we'd all be speaking german by now. Infact that would probably be a good thing as then this country would still have plenty of good manufacturers around.
Boy we sure were lucky the yanks bailed us out in the 2nd world war as otherwise we'd all be speaking german by now. Infact that would probably be a good thing as then this country would still have plenty of good manufacturers around.
19 January 2007, 09:15 AM
#49
Only the Germans would build a 2 tonne convertible and think its a great achievement!
Sorry, no disrepect to any Germans, let me rephrase, only Audilover would think that a 2 tonne convertible is a great achievement!
Sorry, no disrepect to any Germans, let me rephrase, only Audilover would think that a 2 tonne convertible is a great achievement!
Last edited by jonc; 19 January 2007 at 09:22 AM.
19 January 2007, 09:19 AM
#50
Scooby Senior
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wildberg, Germany/Reading, UK
Posts: 9,707
Likes: 0
Received 73 Likes
on
54 Posts
Not only is German quality a myth but so is German efficiency.
Germans make the most boring cars going, and germans buy them. over here a german is bread to think they need to own German car and will buy a low end German car regardless of whether they can afford it or not just as a status symbol so they are not out done by the neighbours. The fact that they could buy a Ford/Opel or a Jap car for half the price and get twice the value for money doesn't come into the equation.
They also have the most boring taste in colours, most Germans will buy a Silver car, just look in any German car park or drive downa German street and the majority of the cars are German and silver.
My Sonic Blue 7 year old scooby still gets looks round the tiny town I live in just because it stands out like a sore thumb, it is like a rose amongst a whole town of thorns.
The build quality of Mercedes is going down hill all the time, BMW is no better, BMW also nicked the Subaru 4wd system aswell. FYI the BMW plant in Munich has a whole heap of Jap cars on site including Evos and Scoobies where they systematical strip stela the best parts and build them into their cars. BMW do have some clever gadgets in their cars but having driven a number of BMW prototypes and heard some horror stories from on of thier R&D engineers I would not touch a BMW with a barge pole. Plus their eletronic drivers seat massaging system freaks you out and is feckin annoying.
Germans make the most boring cars going, and germans buy them. over here a german is bread to think they need to own German car and will buy a low end German car regardless of whether they can afford it or not just as a status symbol so they are not out done by the neighbours. The fact that they could buy a Ford/Opel or a Jap car for half the price and get twice the value for money doesn't come into the equation.
They also have the most boring taste in colours, most Germans will buy a Silver car, just look in any German car park or drive downa German street and the majority of the cars are German and silver.
My Sonic Blue 7 year old scooby still gets looks round the tiny town I live in just because it stands out like a sore thumb, it is like a rose amongst a whole town of thorns.
The build quality of Mercedes is going down hill all the time, BMW is no better, BMW also nicked the Subaru 4wd system aswell. FYI the BMW plant in Munich has a whole heap of Jap cars on site including Evos and Scoobies where they systematical strip stela the best parts and build them into their cars. BMW do have some clever gadgets in their cars but having driven a number of BMW prototypes and heard some horror stories from on of thier R&D engineers I would not touch a BMW with a barge pole. Plus their eletronic drivers seat massaging system freaks you out and is feckin annoying.
Last edited by Wurzel; 19 January 2007 at 09:29 AM.
19 January 2007, 09:25 AM
#53
Scooby Regular
sorry but my mind reading is a bit sketchy today and as it was posted after mine ...............................and not being into playground rhyming slang ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
19 January 2007, 09:49 AM
#55
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 15,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry rannoch, your facts are slightly wrong
just after the war, Japanese quality was dire, they recognised that to move forward, they needed to make radical changes....
Enter W Deming, and J Juran, an American and a Romanian, they recognised that quality by engineering and sound statistical principles was the way forward. Unfortunately the major players at that time, the USA and the UK didn't share there views, and there ideas were shunned. It was the Japanese who saw the obvious way forward, and invited Deming & Juran to Japan, to teach them there quality practices. The Japanese embraced the principles, and the rest is history.
The Japanese saw that to resolve there problems, they had to start from scratch, the growing automotive industries, the Uk and the US had, relied in inspecting out problems, as opposed analysis and engineering out the issues.
You would be surprised at how many firms today, still rely on inspection to to solve quality problems!
All Toyota do when they have issues is flood the area with engineers, each looking at a particular discipline, then by gathering data they can pinpoint and rectify the concern, the difference is when they fix the problem, they do it perminantly.
All the Germans have done is taken these principles and techniques, and applied them.
Mart
just after the war, Japanese quality was dire, they recognised that to move forward, they needed to make radical changes....
Enter W Deming, and J Juran, an American and a Romanian, they recognised that quality by engineering and sound statistical principles was the way forward. Unfortunately the major players at that time, the USA and the UK didn't share there views, and there ideas were shunned. It was the Japanese who saw the obvious way forward, and invited Deming & Juran to Japan, to teach them there quality practices. The Japanese embraced the principles, and the rest is history.
The Japanese saw that to resolve there problems, they had to start from scratch, the growing automotive industries, the Uk and the US had, relied in inspecting out problems, as opposed analysis and engineering out the issues.
You would be surprised at how many firms today, still rely on inspection to to solve quality problems!
All Toyota do when they have issues is flood the area with engineers, each looking at a particular discipline, then by gathering data they can pinpoint and rectify the concern, the difference is when they fix the problem, they do it perminantly.
All the Germans have done is taken these principles and techniques, and applied them.
Mart
Deming defined the management principles that enabled lean to be created but he did not create lean itself. The crucial elements of lean are the understanding and reduction of tac time and the level of information/complexity passed between production processes.
Demings management science could equally apply to traditional, reductionist production in which tac time can be high and there are multiple processes just as much as they can apply to the Toyota lean processes.
Deming was concerned with consistency and the creation and management of consistency which are crucial to lean, but do not define lean manufacturing.
I agree with everything in your post AND they are all contributors of lean manufacturing but do not define it.
Last edited by Trout; 19 January 2007 at 09:52 AM.
19 January 2007, 09:52 AM
#56
Germans dont just put our cars to shame, their construction teams do also. German plumbers have much higher standards than british ones.
For example we pressure test something for 30 mins at 3 bar, and are allowed a slight drop, well the germans will do that same test at 100 bar, and they are not allowed any pressure drop!!!!!!!!!!
Germans
For example we pressure test something for 30 mins at 3 bar, and are allowed a slight drop, well the germans will do that same test at 100 bar, and they are not allowed any pressure drop!!!!!!!!!!
Germans
Thus pipe joints are brazed or silver soldered. And no leaks allowed as failure could be a disaster.
At my house in the UK, I'm doing well to get 1.1bar from my cold water
Our plumbers aren't worse, just working to different standards.
Look at trains. The Germans copied the French high speed network, and the only changes they made resulted in a high speed derailment killing loads of folk.
The tilting trains now running all over Europe were invented where? The UK, then Thatcher sold the technology to the Italians, who ironed out the last of the small bugs and sold it back to us, among many others. Thatcher refused the APT any more cash to finish the project.
Otherwise WE'D be selling it to THEM!Alcazar
19 January 2007, 09:59 AM
#57
The tilting trains now running all over Europe were invented where? The UK, then Thatcher sold the technology to the Italians, who ironed out the last of the small bugs and sold it back to us, among many others. Thatcher refused the APT any more cash to finish the project. Otherwise WE'D be selling it to THEM!
Alcazar
Otherwise WE'D be selling it to THEM!Alcazar
19 January 2007, 10:02 AM
#58
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and it can show most other cars a clean set of heels
Mart
19 January 2007, 10:04 AM
#59
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In what way are they wrong?
Deming defined the management principles that enabled lean to be created but he did not create lean itself. The crucial elements of lean are the understanding and reduction of tac time and the level of information/complexity passed between production processes.
Demings management science could equally apply to traditional, reductionist production in which tac time can be high and there are multiple processes just as much as they can apply to the Toyota lean processes.
Deming was concerned with consistency and the creation and management of consistency which are crucial to lean, but do not define lean manufacturing.
I agree with everything in your post AND they are all contributors of lean manufacturing but do not define it.
Deming defined the management principles that enabled lean to be created but he did not create lean itself. The crucial elements of lean are the understanding and reduction of tac time and the level of information/complexity passed between production processes.
Demings management science could equally apply to traditional, reductionist production in which tac time can be high and there are multiple processes just as much as they can apply to the Toyota lean processes.
Deming was concerned with consistency and the creation and management of consistency which are crucial to lean, but do not define lean manufacturing.
I agree with everything in your post AND they are all contributors of lean manufacturing but do not define it.
(sonly cos i do if for a living
)Mart
19 January 2007, 10:08 AM
#60
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not only is German quality a myth but so is German efficiency.
Germans make the most boring cars going, and germans buy them. over here a german is bread to think they need to own German car and will buy a low end German car regardless of whether they can afford it or not just as a status symbol so they are not out done by the neighbours. The fact that they could buy a Ford/Opel or a Jap car for half the price and get twice the value for money doesn't come into the equation.
They also have the most boring taste in colours, most Germans will buy a Silver car, just look in any German car park or drive downa German street and the majority of the cars are German and silver.
My Sonic Blue 7 year old scooby still gets looks round the tiny town I live in just because it stands out like a sore thumb, it is like a rose amongst a whole town of thorns.
The build quality of Mercedes is going down hill all the time, BMW is no better, BMW also nicked the Subaru 4wd system aswell. FYI the BMW plant in Munich has a whole heap of Jap cars on site including Evos and Scoobies where they systematical strip stela the best parts and build them into their cars. BMW do have some clever gadgets in their cars but having driven a number of BMW prototypes and heard some horror stories from on of thier R&D engineers I would not touch a BMW with a barge pole. Plus their eletronic drivers seat massaging system freaks you out and is feckin annoying.
Germans make the most boring cars going, and germans buy them. over here a german is bread to think they need to own German car and will buy a low end German car regardless of whether they can afford it or not just as a status symbol so they are not out done by the neighbours. The fact that they could buy a Ford/Opel or a Jap car for half the price and get twice the value for money doesn't come into the equation.
They also have the most boring taste in colours, most Germans will buy a Silver car, just look in any German car park or drive downa German street and the majority of the cars are German and silver.
My Sonic Blue 7 year old scooby still gets looks round the tiny town I live in just because it stands out like a sore thumb, it is like a rose amongst a whole town of thorns.
The build quality of Mercedes is going down hill all the time, BMW is no better, BMW also nicked the Subaru 4wd system aswell. FYI the BMW plant in Munich has a whole heap of Jap cars on site including Evos and Scoobies where they systematical strip stela the best parts and build them into their cars. BMW do have some clever gadgets in their cars but having driven a number of BMW prototypes and heard some horror stories from on of thier R&D engineers I would not touch a BMW with a barge pole. Plus their eletronic drivers seat massaging system freaks you out and is feckin annoying.
BTW show me a manufacturer (automotive) who dosent buy competitors products for teardown and evaluation!!! when i worked tier 1, we did it all the time. how else do you benchmark the opposition
Mart