jonc

I thought AL was refering to a Merc SL65. If its something else, then I stand corrected. If Merc did the same thing with a car weighing a little over a tonne, then that would be great engineering, but then that task would most likely be appointed to Maclaren!

scoobydooooo

you know when a football player waves a fake yellow card at the ref trying to get another player booked, how annoying is that ?? . that's you that is !!

Trout

iTrader: (1)

So you will agree that Deming did not define lean manufacturing then

scunnered

iTrader: (1)

Audilover, I know the perfect car for you. Next year Audi will be bringing out a new small car to commemorate the 60th aniversary of an american puppet. It's called the "AUDI DOODY".

Flatcapdriver

Unfortunately, the lack of quality shows as well.

mart360

no, dont push it matey

mart

mart360

Rolls Royce Drophead Coupe


built by brits


Mart

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Ok then, matey, share you wisdom as to how management science and lean are the same? Or maybe you didn't read the rest of my post.

There is a critical element that defines lean and separates it from other management and production disciplines and AFAIK it was not discovered by Deming - I would love to be enlightened.

BULLITT

Just think, all those goats will be crossing that bridge while your here.

Funnily enough that the Aston Martin DB5 has been classed as the best car ever many a time and that was a time when Aston Martin was BRITISH owned! The germans have never had such a claim yet!

To retort to your statement about the Merc going round the 'Ring in 8 minutes, the R33 Skyline GTR went round the ring in LESS than 7minutes and held that title for over four years!

I work at a BMW dealer unfortunately (everyone needs a job) and I work with three people who worked at Mercedes before coming here, I can tell you that German cars, especially BMW and Mercedes are over complicated, over priced, over rated and the build quality isn't all its made out to be.

The only reason you hear so much about British build quality is because of magazines like Autocar that promote German cars because of thick brown envelopes been passed around, make out that cars built here are bad to make a bad German car look better. Autocar favours the executive saloon and not much else.

Admittedly there has been a fair few bad British cars, I won't deny it, but I comparing the current MINI to the old one?? The original MINI was just that, it was an honest cheap fun car, the new one is a BMW in bright paint, thats it.

I wonder why people like this come on enthusiast forums and talk so much sh!te.

KiwiGTI

I think Porsche are pretty peerless. (latest "Car" magazine)

Trout

iTrader: (1)

...and the 993RS has been classed as the greatest driver's car of all time by a number of magazines around the world!

PeteBrant

We use the Lean process here at work. In all the training course I have attended, they say it was developed by Toyota. Indeed a quick google revelas the following

The term Lean in the manufacturing environment also refers to the Toyota Production system established by the Toyota Corporation. Within the organization, four prominent gentlemen are credited with developing the system: Sakichi Toyoda, who founded the Toyoda Group in 1902; Kiichiro Toyoda, son of Sakichi Toyoda, who headed the automobile manufacturing operation between 1936 and 1950; Eiji Toyoda, Managing Director between 1950 and 1981 and Chairman between 1981 and 1994; and Taiichi Ohno, the Father of the Kanban System.

And from wikipedia..

It was with Taiichi Ohno at Toyota that all these themes came together and Lean Production finally took form. Levels of demand in the Post War economy of Japan were low and the focus of mass production on lowest cost per item via economies of scale had little relevance. Having visited and seen supermarkets in the US Taiichi Ohno recognised the scheduling of work should not be driven by sales or production targets but by actual sales. Given the financial situation during this period over production was not an option and thus the notion of Pull (rather than sales target driven Push) came to underpin production scheduling. Norman Bodek wrote the following in his foreword to a reprint of Ford's (1926) Today and Tomorrow: "I was first introduced to the concepts of just-in-time (JIT) and the Toyota production system in 1980. Subsequently I had the opportunity to witness its actual application at Toyota on one of our numerous Japanese study missions. There I met Mr. Taiichi Ohno, the system's creator. When bombarded with questions from our group on what inspired his thinking, he just laughed and said he learned it all from Henry Ford's book."

davyboy

Less than 7 mins

It's also widely known that it was not 276bhp as claimed either.

scoobydooooo

Originally Posted by Bullitt_Rich
To retort to your statement about the Merc going round the 'Ring in 8 minutes, the R33 Skyline GTR went round the ring in LESS than 7minutes and held that title for over four years!

this is off the radical website :
Michael Vergers waiting to start his 6:55 lap!One the world’s most prestigious production car records was obliterated yesterday (28/9/05) by Michael Vergers in Radical’s extraordinary SR8. In road legal trim and riding on Dunlop Direnza tyres he lapped the infamous 13-mile Nordschleife circuit in just 6 minutes 55 seconds, knocking a massive 20 seconds off the previous best!

so how did this magical skyline manage it ?? or was it a different lap ?
you see the maths don't add up

scoobydooooo

some lap times to ponder :

6:55 - Radical SR8, 360 PS/650 kg, Michael Vergers (28 Sep 2005), UK-registered
7:12 - Radical SR3 Turbo, 320 PS/500 kg (test drive 07/03)
7:14 - Donkervoort D8 RS, 398 PS/760 kg, Michael Düchting (sport auto 11/05), registered in Germany
7:15 - Edo Porsche 996 GT2 RS, 542 PS/1284 kg, de:Patrick Simon (sport auto 09/05)
7:18 - Donkervoort D8 RS, 370 PS/670 kg, Michael Düchting (sport auto 12/04)
7:21 - Blitz Toyota Supra, 650 PS /1300 kg (Autocar magazine 1997)
7:28 - Porsche Carrera GT, 612 PS/ 1475 kg, Walter Röhrl , (Autobild 07/04)
7:32 - Pagani Zonda F, 602 PS/ 1230 kg (sport auto 05/06)
7.32 - Gemballa Porsche GTR 600PS/1432 kg (Gemballa)
7:34 - Koenigsegg CCR, 806 PS/1418 kg, Horst von Saurma (sport auto), oct,17-18 05
7.39 - Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1395 kg, (quote sport auto 05/06)
7:40 - Bugatti Veyron 16.4, 1001 PS/1980 kg (Wheels magazine Australia, 12/05)
7:40 - Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren, Klaus Ludwig (AutoBild 07/04)
7:41 - Manthey Porsche GT3 M410, 413 PS/1320 kg (160.868 kph) (Autobild 07/04)
7:42 - Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1440kg, Walter Röhrl (Automobil 05/06)
7:42 - Ford GT, 550 PS/ 1521 kg (as indicated by Octane magazine, 11/05)
7:43 - Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06, 512 PS/1319 kg, Jan Magnussen, 2005/06/23 (news release, pictures)
7:43 - Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine 02)
7:44 - Pagani Zonda S 550 PS/ 1280 kg (sport auto 02/05)
7:46 - Porsche 996 GT2, 462 PS/1450 kg (sport auto 06/01)
7:47 - Porsche 996 GT3 RS (sport tyres)
7:48 - Porsche 997 GT3, 415 PS/1440kg (sport auto 07/06)
7:50 - Westfield Megabusa, 180 PS/440 kg
7:50 - Lamborghini Murcielago, (sport auto 06/02)
7:50 - BMW M3 E46 CSL, 360 PS/1421 kg (sport auto 08/03)
7:52 - Porsche 996 GT3 (381 hp)
7:52 - Lamborghini Gallardo
7:53 - Chevrolet Corvette Z06
7:54 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R34 [citation needed]
7:55 - Caterham R500 Superlight, 233 PS/460 kg, Robert Nearn (EVO magazine 07/00)
7:55 - Ferrari F430 F1, 490 PS/1493 kg (sport auto 01/06)
7:56 - Porsche 996 Turbo (sport auto 06/00)
7:56 - Honda NSX-R, 280 PS/1270 kg, Incomplete lap, Motoharu Kurosawa, (best MOTOring 08/02)
7:56 - Ferrari 360 stradale (sport tyres)
7:57 - Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo (600 hp, racing suspension)
7:59 - Porsche 997 Carrera S, PASM setting “Performance”, Walter Röhrl, (WHEELS 06/04)
7:59 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R33, 280 PS/1530 kg Dirk Schoymans (Autocar magazine 1997)
7:59 - Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z51,405 PS/1481 kg, driver Dave Hill (manufacturer claim)
7:59 - Subaru Impreza Sti Spec-C (Prototype), 280 PS/1370 kg (Subaru News 2004 [1])
8:01 - Bugatti EB 110 Supersport, 610 PS/1410 kg
8:07 - Ferrari 550
8:09 - Lamborghini Diablo SV
8:09 - Ferrari 360 Modena
8:09 - Honda NSX-R, 320 PS/1467 kg, sport tires, suspension modification (sport auto 08/02)
8:10 - Chrysler Viper GTS
8:11 - Mitsubishi Lancer evo IX GSR,280 PS/1420 kg, Takayuki Kino****a (Best MOTOring 02/05)
8:12 - Porsche 993 Turbo (430 hp version)
8:13 - Ferrari 355 GTB (Sport Auto 10/1994)
8:15 - BMW Z8 400 hp
8:17 - Porsche 996 C2
8:22 - Nissan Skyline GT-R R32
8:22 - BMW M Coupe 321 hp
8:25 - Jaguar XKR (Sport Auto)
8:25 - Porsche Cayman S (Sport Auto)
8:26 - BMW 335i Coupe (Sport Auto)
8:25 - Audi RS4 375 hp
8:28 - Porsche 993 C2
8:28 - BMW M5 400 hp
8:32 - Porsche Boxster S
8:35 - BMW M3 Coupe E36, 321 hp
8:36 - Opel Astra OPC, 240 PS/1355 kg, Manuel Reuter (mfr., oct,05), sport compact record holder
8:37 - Mercedes C32 AMG
8:38 - Honda NSX
8:39 - Honda S2000
8:40 - Chevrolet Corvette C5 automatic, 344 PS/1505 kg (sport auto 07/97)
8:42 - Audi S4 265 hp
8:42 - Lotus Exige
8:49 - Jaguar XKR Coupe
8:52 - Mercedes CLK 430

BULLITT

Was something read ages ago, I'll see if I can find it again.

davyboy

It never did it, don't bother looking.

scoobydooooo

the problem i have is , i cannot see a skyline out handling a radical . am i wrong here ??

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

How many people drive a Radical to work or as a family car Let's get real, the Germans have been largely poor performers in all the customer satisfaction surveys over the last ten tears, VW (British REME Major got them going in Wolfsburg) had hugh problems with poor parts, the ML Merc was so bad it came last in one survey, and there was the issue of the BMW engines failing with cylinder liner problems.

The French and Italian large scale car resale values speak for themselves. Skoda needs to be carefull or they will go the same way as Mother VAG and get up it's own ****.

Subaru spent a while at the top of Customer Surveys and the Forester is loved by all who buy them, but Subaru have slipped too.

Americans are turning away from BM and Merc in droves and coming over all patriotic. Aston Martin have a very poor reliability record. Ask any dealer, so the comment of "You get what you pay for" goes out of the window there. The same chassis in a Jag is a much better "relability option" but only just.

Jap is quality for reliabilty but not necessarily image. Customer service but not cheap parts.

But, will zer German re-invent and get better, more than likely no, they are now Global but standards are suffering.

scoobydooooo

that wasn't my point if you read the whole thread you MIGHT understand
why don't morons read things BEFORE being morons ??

KiwiGTI

It is really only the UK that has the image/snob issue with Jap cars.

davyboy

Thats rubbish, in every country a BMW, Merc and Audi, will be branded as premium goods. It has nothign to do with snob value.

Jap cars are good for reliability but nothing else. Styling, NO! Interiors, NO!

Jap cars are good cars, they will just never be desirable.

KiwiGTI

Just as I'd expect from a British person.

davyboy

Just as I'd expect from a foreigner.

Leslie

The BMW version of the Mini is a particularly well made and good handling car. It is also cheap to run while covering distances cross country surprisingl quickly.

Unlike the original Mini it is quiet and smooth inside and is a good long distance cruiser.

Les

KiwiGTI

Styling?

Probably more personal taste than anything but can you honestly say that the A4,A6,A8, 3 and 5 series, or any of the Merc saloons look amazingly styled?

Certainly no better than a new Lexus IS200.

You missed my point though. In any other country people would just buy a Jap car and yes, they would be desirable.

In the UK there is far too much snobbery involved and people would always choose a Euro badge over a Jap one.

davyboy

Compare them to the jap offerings and you will find they are.

The new Lexus 200 thing does look pretty good must admit.

I'll add that to the list of other "good jap styling" cars

240z
260z
New Lexus 200

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Psssst! Subaru are Japanese, I think you are on the wrong forum or are you a fan of reliability

KiwiGTI

He's probably one of the huge number of people that have "outgrown" Subarus and now has a better car, but still hangs around anyway.

davyboy

Ah, so you admit to approaching this subject with rose tinted specs then.

I'd be happy to have a Jap car for my daily commute, however I could get a vauxhall cheaper and will do the job just as well.