Why do germans make the best cars in the world....
19 January 2007, 03:06 PM
#91
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As someone has already said, on a Subaru forum, saying Japanese cars aren't desirable is a bit short-sighted. Even if you do discount the site's brand, there are still the likes of the 350Z out there that are highly desirable.
And then you come to the argument about what makes a car desirable... but that's another story.
*I don't include any of the specialist cars such as S or RSs in here...
19 January 2007, 03:16 PM
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19 January 2007, 03:17 PM
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Looking at those ring times - the most amazing is the 7:42 997 GT3 - this for a car that can used to commute every day of the week. Drive to Germany for a weekend at the Ring and then drive home again.
Awesome, awesome car.
Awesome, awesome car.
19 January 2007, 03:28 PM
#95
I think you will find that a number of owners are not to happy with the premium product that BMW claim.
rubbish dealer.
Last edited by The Trooper 1815; 19 January 2007 at 03:36 PM. Reason: added comment
. Doooh
19 January 2007, 04:03 PM
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In the last ten years I have owned three BMWs from new. Two coupes and the current hearse (5 series touring).
I have had far more warranty work done on all the BMWs than we had on two new Citroens we owned (ZX and Xantia) and that is saying something. Never had a warranty fault on a Scoob
Things were always fixed and the core was that driving experience is excellent.
What is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY bad are the dealers.
Some examples: -
Car delivered with the wrong reg numbers etched on the window glass!! - Solution was SANDBLAST the number off, fill with liquid glass and then re-etch - so tell me what is the point of etching - it is supposed to be original. I made them replace all the glass.
Same car - returned from dealer after servicing with three inch diameter hole in the carpet - denied all liaibility - nothing to do with me guv.
Same car - it sank about four centimetres on the drivers side so it looked like it was listing. Solution - dealer said it was because I drove it a lot on my own (I ain't a fat lad!)
Having refused to rectify it I was invited to speak to to BMW Corporate bloke. Solution - Well sir, as you have not owned the car from new we can't fix it under warranty as it might have been crashed. Errr I DID OWN IT FROM NEW! All suspension replaced.
Second car had the window winders and switches replaced. Oh and it broke down due to a fan recall not being sent and the car was not recalled and the fan broke. Dealer blamed BMW, BMW blamed dealer.
Third car has had constant windscreen/lamp washer system failures and a tailgate that does not rise up when it is colder than 10deg C.
Overall I have used eleven different BMW dealers and found two that were actually pretty good - Malton BMW and Lind in Norwich. The rest are arrogant onanists.
Indeed Castle in York failed to sell someone an M3 recently as they simply looked down their nose and paid him no attention. He bought one elsewhere.
Shame of it is that all the dealers are Brits
I have had far more warranty work done on all the BMWs than we had on two new Citroens we owned (ZX and Xantia) and that is saying something. Never had a warranty fault on a Scoob
Things were always fixed and the core was that driving experience is excellent.
What is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY bad are the dealers.
Some examples: -
Car delivered with the wrong reg numbers etched on the window glass!! - Solution was SANDBLAST the number off, fill with liquid glass and then re-etch - so tell me what is the point of etching - it is supposed to be original. I made them replace all the glass.
Same car - returned from dealer after servicing with three inch diameter hole in the carpet - denied all liaibility - nothing to do with me guv.
Same car - it sank about four centimetres on the drivers side so it looked like it was listing. Solution - dealer said it was because I drove it a lot on my own (I ain't a fat lad!)
Having refused to rectify it I was invited to speak to to BMW Corporate bloke. Solution - Well sir, as you have not owned the car from new we can't fix it under warranty as it might have been crashed. Errr I DID OWN IT FROM NEW! All suspension replaced.
Second car had the window winders and switches replaced. Oh and it broke down due to a fan recall not being sent and the car was not recalled and the fan broke. Dealer blamed BMW, BMW blamed dealer.
Third car has had constant windscreen/lamp washer system failures and a tailgate that does not rise up when it is colder than 10deg C.
Overall I have used eleven different BMW dealers and found two that were actually pretty good - Malton BMW and Lind in Norwich. The rest are arrogant onanists.
Indeed Castle in York failed to sell someone an M3 recently as they simply looked down their nose and paid him no attention. He bought one elsewhere.
Shame of it is that all the dealers are Brits
19 January 2007, 04:19 PM
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Indeed - Damon Hill dealers (who used to be nr Leam Spa) stole the interior rear-view mirror from my boss's 535i while it was in for an MOT, presumably to put in another car, and then informed him that he couldn't take his car away on the evening because it wasn't roadworthy without the mirror!
They looked a bit embarrassed when he went ballistic in their showroom, infront of several customers, informing them that the mirror wasn't missing when he brought the car in.
That incident drove him to buy an Audi. The dealerships for them were worse. He had his brakes replaced on a service, and at the next service they advised him that the brakes needed to be replaced. When he showed them the paperwork for the last set, from the same dealership they admitted their "mistake".
He's now got a Toyota and hasn't said a bad thing about it in 12 months.
They looked a bit embarrassed when he went ballistic in their showroom, infront of several customers, informing them that the mirror wasn't missing when he brought the car in.
That incident drove him to buy an Audi. The dealerships for them were worse. He had his brakes replaced on a service, and at the next service they advised him that the brakes needed to be replaced. When he showed them the paperwork for the last set, from the same dealership they admitted their "mistake".
He's now got a Toyota and hasn't said a bad thing about it in 12 months.
19 January 2007, 04:24 PM
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Reminds me of a dealer in Wakefield. Friend broke the cupholder in her 5 series and had to pay £60 to get it fixed. Waiting months for the part.
Finally car goes in, they replace the part and in the process put a big gouge into the wood surround.
She then has to wait another few weeks to get a matching bit of wood and low and behold when they are fitting that they scrape the other wooden surround!
Quality - not!
She now has a Merc!
Finally car goes in, they replace the part and in the process put a big gouge into the wood surround.
She then has to wait another few weeks to get a matching bit of wood and low and behold when they are fitting that they scrape the other wooden surround!
Quality - not!
She now has a Merc!
19 January 2007, 04:37 PM
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Just thinking more about this...and leaving performance cars aside as these tend to bought on price. (Any ugly fast car will sell if you make it cheap enough).
I don't think there is one jap car I would own instead of a Euro car
I think some of the Hondas come closest.
I don't think there is one jap car I would own instead of a Euro car
I think some of the Hondas come closest.
19 January 2007, 04:58 PM
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Ok then, matey, share you wisdom as to how management science and lean are the same? Or maybe you didn't read the rest of my post.
There is a critical element that defines lean and separates it from other management and production disciplines and AFAIK it was not discovered by Deming - I would love to be enlightened.
There is a critical element that defines lean and separates it from other management and production disciplines and AFAIK it was not discovered by Deming - I would love to be enlightened.
Deming used statisitcal mathods to improve productivity, however if you actually looked into the principles of Deming , Juran, Crosby et al you would have noticed that one is at odds with the others, Lean Manufacturing and Lean Enterprise credits Henry Ford as pioneering lean!! All credit to the Japanese they cherry picked the best bits.....management science, thats a new on one me.
Mart
Last edited by mart360; 19 January 2007 at 05:22 PM.
19 January 2007, 04:59 PM
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Just think, all those goats will be crossing that bridge while your here.
Funnily enough that the Aston Martin DB5 has been classed as the best car ever many a time and that was a time when Aston Martin was BRITISH owned! The germans have never had such a claim yet!
To retort to your statement about the Merc going round the 'Ring in 8 minutes, the R33 Skyline GTR went round the ring in LESS than 7minutes and held that title for over four years!
I work at a BMW dealer unfortunately (everyone needs a job) and I work with three people who worked at Mercedes before coming here, I can tell you that German cars, especially BMW and Mercedes are over complicated, over priced, over rated and the build quality isn't all its made out to be.
The only reason you hear so much about British build quality is because of magazines like Autocar that promote German cars because of thick brown envelopes been passed around, make out that cars built here are bad to make a bad German car look better. Autocar favours the executive saloon and not much else.
Admittedly there has been a fair few bad British cars, I won't deny it, but I comparing the current MINI to the old one??
The original MINI was just that, it was an honest cheap fun car, the new one is a BMW in bright paint, thats it.
I wonder why people like this come on enthusiast forums and talk so much sh!te.
Funnily enough that the Aston Martin DB5 has been classed as the best car ever many a time and that was a time when Aston Martin was BRITISH owned! The germans have never had such a claim yet!
To retort to your statement about the Merc going round the 'Ring in 8 minutes, the R33 Skyline GTR went round the ring in LESS than 7minutes and held that title for over four years!
I work at a BMW dealer unfortunately (everyone needs a job) and I work with three people who worked at Mercedes before coming here, I can tell you that German cars, especially BMW and Mercedes are over complicated, over priced, over rated and the build quality isn't all its made out to be.
The only reason you hear so much about British build quality is because of magazines like Autocar that promote German cars because of thick brown envelopes been passed around, make out that cars built here are bad to make a bad German car look better. Autocar favours the executive saloon and not much else.
Admittedly there has been a fair few bad British cars, I won't deny it, but I comparing the current MINI to the old one??
The original MINI was just that, it was an honest cheap fun car, the new one is a BMW in bright paint, thats it.I wonder why people like this come on enthusiast forums and talk so much sh!te.
mind you that was never going to happen!!! it would have become the 1 series, if they didnt get the name!!!
Mart
19 January 2007, 05:54 PM
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stick to finance!!!
Deming used statisitcal mathods to improve productivity, however if you actually looked into the principles of Deming , Juran, Crosby et al you would have noticed that one is at odds with the others, Lean Manufacturing and Lean Enterprise credits Henry Ford as pioneering lean!! All credit to the Japanese they cherry picked the best bits.....management science, thats a new on one me.
Mart
Deming used statisitcal mathods to improve productivity, however if you actually looked into the principles of Deming , Juran, Crosby et al you would have noticed that one is at odds with the others, Lean Manufacturing and Lean Enterprise credits Henry Ford as pioneering lean!! All credit to the Japanese they cherry picked the best bits.....management science, thats a new on one me.
Mart
I used to work with Andy Taylor - one of, if not, the leading lean advisor in the UK. He always credited Toyota. Of course many people created the foundations but theory is one thing, practice is something else entirely.
It's a bit like saying Einstein invented the A-bomb. Of course he did theoretically but it took Oppenheimer's team to make it happen.
19 January 2007, 06:05 PM
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In laws 535d Touring had major computer failure and was sent back.
The girl on the desk said (and possibly wasn't meant to say) it was the thrird they'd had back that week!
They stuck with BMW but went with the i-driveless X5.
I tested the latest 750i and that was the ultimate in techno overload - Great to drive but lots to go wrong.
Think most manufacturers have good and bad periods.
I'm quite anti French cars but plenty have had ones that never miss a beat.
The girl on the desk said (and possibly wasn't meant to say) it was the thrird they'd had back that week!
They stuck with BMW but went with the i-driveless X5.
I tested the latest 750i and that was the ultimate in techno overload - Great to drive but lots to go wrong.
Think most manufacturers have good and bad periods.
I'm quite anti French cars but plenty have had ones that never miss a beat.
Last edited by Matteeboy; 19 January 2007 at 06:38 PM.
19 January 2007, 06:20 PM
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Deming's field of discipline was referred to as management science - I thought you would know that as this is what you do 'professionally'.
I used to work with Andy Taylor - one of, if not, the leading lean advisor in the UK. He always credited Toyota. Of course many people created the foundations but theory is one thing, practice is something else entirely.
It's a bit like saying Einstein invented the A-bomb. Of course he did theoretically but it took Oppenheimer's team to make it happen.
I used to work with Andy Taylor - one of, if not, the leading lean advisor in the UK. He always credited Toyota. Of course many people created the foundations but theory is one thing, practice is something else entirely.
It's a bit like saying Einstein invented the A-bomb. Of course he did theoretically but it took Oppenheimer's team to make it happen.
really? we were taught Demings, area of expertise was statistical methods of control, SPC it was by applying these methods that he reduced the defects...
never in the 12+ years ive been doing it,i have never of it called that, and my tutor during college was a senior member of the IQA.
Interesting though.... Toyota solve problems by throwing numbers at it....Ford on the other hand use one or two people, and the concern organisation to resolve the problem. It could be argued that Toyotas response is akin to the very thing it in principle strives o reduce!
mart
19 January 2007, 06:52 PM
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Have you ever played the Lego Game - they use it to teach production efficiency at INSEAD. It is taught by a professor from Barcelona, can't remember his name.
You could apply SPC to the Lego Game and still royally f*** it up.
I will try and find out the reference as it is a brilliant game to teach how all these things fit together in a single afternoon!
Rannoch
You could apply SPC to the Lego Game and still royally f*** it up.
I will try and find out the reference as it is a brilliant game to teach how all these things fit together in a single afternoon!
Rannoch
19 January 2007, 07:17 PM
#108
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Have you ever played the Lego Game - they use it to teach production efficiency at INSEAD. It is taught by a professor from Barcelona, can't remember his name.
You could apply SPC to the Lego Game and still royally f*** it up.
I will try and find out the reference as it is a brilliant game to teach how all these things fit together in a single afternoon!
Rannoch
You could apply SPC to the Lego Game and still royally f*** it up.
I will try and find out the reference as it is a brilliant game to teach how all these things fit together in a single afternoon!
Rannoch
we identified we could open up the production area, to give the potential of an increase in production (based on sales) of 2million.... senior management..bought in..... and the directors reckoned it was cheaper to build in China.... suffice to say, there in the poo at the mo..
Mart
19 January 2007, 07:37 PM
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Did the lego bit when doing a Lean course, many years ago......
we identified we could open up the production area, to give the potential of an increase in production (based on sales) of 2million.... senior management..bought in..... and the directors reckoned it was cheaper to build in China.... suffice to say, there in the poo at the mo..
Mart
we identified we could open up the production area, to give the potential of an increase in production (based on sales) of 2million.... senior management..bought in..... and the directors reckoned it was cheaper to build in China.... suffice to say, there in the poo at the mo..
Mart
It is not about Lego the company
Basically you have a production line with different processes and the components are all made out Lego.
You then have to optimise the end to end production run.
It is very telling that for the first two or three changes all that happens is that it gets MUCH worse no matter how much analysis you apply.
Only when the shift is made to 'PULL' and reduction or elimination of tac is there any improvement.
And the solution is stunning in it's simplicity.
Will try and find the instructions.
19 January 2007, 08:18 PM
#110
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I have also driven a few BMW MINIs through work (not literally through the dealership lol) and didn't find it that great, yes it was comfortable but its like driving a postbox, visibility is poor, anything but the Cooper S engine is gutless. It didn't handle any better than my MG ZR I had before the Impreza.
Your right about it becoming the 1 series though. We just refer to it as the BMW Half series
Rannoch, did you ever go to Scotthall BMW by any chance?
19 January 2007, 08:40 PM
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Different game then
It is not about Lego the company
Basically you have a production line with different processes and the components are all made out Lego.
You then have to optimise the end to end production run.
It is very telling that for the first two or three changes all that happens is that it gets MUCH worse no matter how much analysis you apply.
Only when the shift is made to 'PULL' and reduction or elimination of tac is there any improvement.
And the solution is stunning in it's simplicity.
Will try and find the instructions.
It is not about Lego the company
Basically you have a production line with different processes and the components are all made out Lego.
You then have to optimise the end to end production run.
It is very telling that for the first two or three changes all that happens is that it gets MUCH worse no matter how much analysis you apply.
Only when the shift is made to 'PULL' and reduction or elimination of tac is there any improvement.
And the solution is stunning in it's simplicity.
Will try and find the instructions.
Mart
20 January 2007, 01:13 AM
#115
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How many people drive a Radical to work or as a family car Let's get real, the Germans have been largely poor performers in all the customer satisfaction surveys over the last ten tears, VW (British REME Major got them going in Wolfsburg) had hugh problems with poor parts, the ML Merc was so bad it came last in one survey, and there was the issue of the BMW engines failing with cylinder liner problems. The French and Italian large scale car resale values speak for themselves. Skoda needs to be carefull or they will go the same way as Mother VAG and get up it's own ****.
Subaru spent a while at the top of Customer Surveys and the Forester is loved by all who buy them, but Subaru have slipped too.
Americans are turning away from BM and Merc in droves and coming over all patriotic. Aston Martin have a very poor reliability record. Ask any dealer, so the comment of "You get what you pay for" goes out of the window there. The same chassis in a Jag is a much better "relability option" but only just.
Jap is quality for reliabilty but not necessarily image. Customer service but not cheap parts.
But, will zer German re-invent and get better, more than likely no, they are now Global but standards are suffering.
LOL yanks arent turning away from german cars as each of the german manufacturers reported a sales increase in yank land for 2006.
And you guys do know I started this thread only to wind people up
And I thought I was making it too obvious
20 January 2007, 01:15 AM
#116
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It's all about snob value, which is why cretins waste thousands of pounds "investing" in modern VWs or Audis* which are essentially the same car as the equivalent SEAT or Skoda. The fact that the latter seems to hold its value better than these "premium" brands is even more amusing!
As someone has already said, on a Subaru forum, saying Japanese cars aren't desirable is a bit short-sighted. Even if you do discount the site's brand, there are still the likes of the 350Z out there that are highly desirable.
And then you come to the argument about what makes a car desirable... but that's another story.
*I don't include any of the specialist cars such as S or RSs in here...
As someone has already said, on a Subaru forum, saying Japanese cars aren't desirable is a bit short-sighted. Even if you do discount the site's brand, there are still the likes of the 350Z out there that are highly desirable.
And then you come to the argument about what makes a car desirable... but that's another story.
*I don't include any of the specialist cars such as S or RSs in here...
seats dont hold their value
Anbd audi and vw golfs hold their value really well actually, some of the best residuals in the world
20 January 2007, 08:29 AM
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20 January 2007, 08:44 AM
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20 January 2007, 10:55 AM
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As long as you do know that Arnie is Austrian 
LEXUS ownership experience pi$$es all over the german ones. The dealers, on the whole, are fantastic. My uncle has a GS430 (fantastically built) and the dealers drive to his house, give him an equivalent or better courtesy car (full of petrol, can use as much as he wants), service his car (warranty stuff, not that anything has broken, only one thing that he didn't even know about is sorted no quibbles), bring back his car to his house and ring a week later to make sure everything with his car is a-ok.
Lexus are the best quality (car + dealer) brand in the world easily. They laugh at the germans. Oh and I drive an Audi, couldn't afford the Lexus GS as they hold their value better so none in my price range.
LEXUS ownership experience pi$$es all over the german ones. The dealers, on the whole, are fantastic. My uncle has a GS430 (fantastically built) and the dealers drive to his house, give him an equivalent or better courtesy car (full of petrol, can use as much as he wants), service his car (warranty stuff, not that anything has broken, only one thing that he didn't even know about is sorted no quibbles), bring back his car to his house and ring a week later to make sure everything with his car is a-ok.
Lexus are the best quality (car + dealer) brand in the world easily. They laugh at the germans. Oh and I drive an Audi, couldn't afford the Lexus GS as they hold their value better so none in my price range.