Porsche vs. Subaru
29 January 2007, 10:23 PM
#61
not such a big reply coming up...
i see what your saying but i still think your veiwing it from a different perspective to me
If you drive the cars upto a certain standard/level of ability they will both be very safe but i was just trying to make it clear that when the **** hit the fan the car with the aids would have a safety net AS well as the drivers talent to help it out. Eg it will give you a split second to try and catch the slide, loss of grip or whatever. I admit all systems don't do this but my one does, and hence its one i feel i can comment on truthfully. Therefore i think it is only keeping you on the road AFTER the driver has over stepped his/her (must be pc here!) and the cars limit, not as you suggest in your last paragraph putting blind faith in the system and letting it try and sort it out. Now whether someone should be driving outside there/the cars limits is a completely different topic but hopefully you can also appreciate the point i'm trying to make.
ps not been on here much in the last few years but good to come back and get some decent replies
i see what your saying but i still think your veiwing it from a different perspective to me
If you drive the cars upto a certain standard/level of ability they will both be very safe but i was just trying to make it clear that when the **** hit the fan the car with the aids would have a safety net AS well as the drivers talent to help it out. Eg it will give you a split second to try and catch the slide, loss of grip or whatever. I admit all systems don't do this but my one does, and hence its one i feel i can comment on truthfully. Therefore i think it is only keeping you on the road AFTER the driver has over stepped his/her (must be pc here!) and the cars limit, not as you suggest in your last paragraph putting blind faith in the system and letting it try and sort it out. Now whether someone should be driving outside there/the cars limits is a completely different topic but hopefully you can also appreciate the point i'm trying to make.
ps not been on here much in the last few years but good to come back and get some decent replies
Nice short reply that one
29 January 2007, 10:31 PM
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29 January 2007, 10:32 PM
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I do have a 944 Turbo amongst others.
I just can't believe anyone can call a 911 old hat. The fact it still looks something like it did 30 odd years ago is awesome. Evolution.
They'll be your thing when you grow up, don't woory, plenty of time yet
I just can't believe anyone can call a 911 old hat. The fact it still looks something like it did 30 odd years ago is awesome. Evolution.
They'll be your thing when you grow up, don't woory, plenty of time yet
29 January 2007, 10:34 PM
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You're thinking of the 924, and Audi did not make them for Porsche.
I don't have one of them. Before you post again do a search on the 944 turbo.
29 January 2007, 10:41 PM
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29 January 2007, 10:45 PM
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didnt they! as far as i remember they had a large input in both the 924 and 944 well see?
29 January 2007, 10:49 PM
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29 January 2007, 10:50 PM
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29 January 2007, 10:50 PM
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Back on track 
This is a great 911 & I'd have one now if I had the cash:
http://www.qv500.com/Porsche%20964%20P3%205.jpg
TX.
This is a great 911 & I'd have one now if I had the cash:
http://www.qv500.com/Porsche%20964%20P3%205.jpg
TX.
29 January 2007, 10:51 PM
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The Porsche 924 was designed for VAG by Porsche. VW decided not to build the car and Porsche bought the rights to the car from them. That VAG be allowed to manufacture the cars was part of the agreement: VAGs plant at Neckarsulm had recently become idle..... The are some common components, as it was designed to be a VAG car, but the commonly mentioned 'Golf door-handles' and 'VW van engine' really is ignorant tosh.
29 January 2007, 10:52 PM
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I don't loath them at all, I use the term Jap Crap for a joke.
Why am I still here.....well, winding people up, making them by an Sti instead of a WRX and spending 3k on mods, sharing experience on tyres, suspension and track day driving....and arguing
Why am I still here.....well, winding people up, making them by an Sti instead of a WRX and spending 3k on mods, sharing experience on tyres, suspension and track day driving....and arguing
29 January 2007, 10:58 PM
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29 January 2007, 11:09 PM
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30 January 2007, 06:59 AM
#80
Have many on here actually driven a modern 911 for more than a moment?
Also the modern 911 is massivly different over time, even though to a glance the shape is the same.
Porsche set out to improve the car and will increase power at the same or better fuel consumption year on year and many other tech advances.
To my mind my 1973 911 looks very little like a 997 and is as crude as it comes I doubt many would like it at all.
Any 997 varient will be great, competant and safe and built to the price with quality engineering. This is why so many buy them, Porsche has had it's best massive profit year etc. The have it right.
Subaru?
Classics were great, Sti's greater, bug eye? Killed a dealer I know well.
Recovered now to make a fabulous flexible car that is very good at everything it sets out to do.
It can be improved considerably and can be the 'boy racer' match for the 911 range of any year.
If you have the 70K in the pocket for a car?
Second hand RS or Carrera 4S, save some money, and drive it through Europe to Monte Carlo in late spring. Park and sip some coffee opposite the Casino and scoot back.
Whatever might 'float your boat' but great to have a choice!
Graham.
Also the modern 911 is massivly different over time, even though to a glance the shape is the same.
Porsche set out to improve the car and will increase power at the same or better fuel consumption year on year and many other tech advances.
To my mind my 1973 911 looks very little like a 997 and is as crude as it comes I doubt many would like it at all.
Any 997 varient will be great, competant and safe and built to the price with quality engineering. This is why so many buy them, Porsche has had it's best massive profit year etc. The have it right.
Subaru?
Classics were great, Sti's greater, bug eye? Killed a dealer I know well.
Recovered now to make a fabulous flexible car that is very good at everything it sets out to do.
It can be improved considerably and can be the 'boy racer' match for the 911 range of any year.
If you have the 70K in the pocket for a car?
Second hand RS or Carrera 4S, save some money, and drive it through Europe to Monte Carlo in late spring. Park and sip some coffee opposite the Casino and scoot back.
Whatever might 'float your boat' but great to have a choice!
Graham.
30 January 2007, 09:51 PM
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Great posts here.
I think there are yet more factors here in the real roads
world. I think in some of the threads that
Steve W highlighted, he gets at some of these points...
What does one do when they're tail out in the rain
with their tail outside their lane, and onto the gravel, rocks,
other cars etc? Will a smart system bail you out? Can a smart system
yet identify an obsticle and push you away from it exactly when
you need this help?
I tend to think its about seeking cars that really
don't slide to much but that *do* slide just a bit. I think
this is what Steve is trying to say, he wants a car that slides
a bit, he would rather slide just that slight bit and know where he is
than be driving along not know that wow I'm all of a sudden in
a slide and ok lets see how the systems sorts me out- hoping
that as good as this system is, it better get on with it fast as
theres a truck over there and a barrier over here. I think Steve
would like to have the handling of a well sorted Impreza with its
slight slipping here and there*and*then a smart sytem to kick in
when things get really hairy- though I don't think Subaru
have Porsche like systems quite yet.
Another aspect is simple testing these cars back to back, which
unfortunaly only evo mag does only every now and again.
Some cars evo has liked in the past are:
996C4S/turbo
997 C2
Skyline R32/3/4
Impreza's
Evo's
UrQuattro
NSX-r
Integra-r
Ferrari
VW Golf gti
Though I'd say they never really got around to sorting out
just how all these great cars react and handle back to back in X y z
conditions.
Once Meaden compared a P1 to a Ferrari 550 and basically
driven flat out the P1 actually was that bit more composed.
Also another famous dual I remember was the 911C4s vs
NSX-r they both came mostly even- NSX just took it, though they never really directly compared how they drove back to back. Also of note
was a quip John Barker made when compring the new Golf Gti with the Golf R32 he siad that on-limit (even with smart sytems) you just couldn't tell
where you were with the 4WD Haldex R32 and that the regular Golf was just more composed when pushed. You only get that sort of insight when
you purposefully drive one car and then the other down the same road
in close to the same time.
Its pretty hard to get all these cars together and
do the sorts of tests to highlight the subtle differences- such
as mentioned here about the 911's inherent capacity to have better
braking upon weight transfer due to rear-engine.
I think this area needs more investigation.
I think there are yet more factors here in the real roads
world. I think in some of the threads that
Steve W highlighted, he gets at some of these points...
What does one do when they're tail out in the rain
with their tail outside their lane, and onto the gravel, rocks,
other cars etc? Will a smart system bail you out? Can a smart system
yet identify an obsticle and push you away from it exactly when
you need this help?
I tend to think its about seeking cars that really
don't slide to much but that *do* slide just a bit. I think
this is what Steve is trying to say, he wants a car that slides
a bit, he would rather slide just that slight bit and know where he is
than be driving along not know that wow I'm all of a sudden in
a slide and ok lets see how the systems sorts me out- hoping
that as good as this system is, it better get on with it fast as
theres a truck over there and a barrier over here. I think Steve
would like to have the handling of a well sorted Impreza with its
slight slipping here and there*and*then a smart sytem to kick in
when things get really hairy- though I don't think Subaru
have Porsche like systems quite yet.
Another aspect is simple testing these cars back to back, which
unfortunaly only evo mag does only every now and again.
Some cars evo has liked in the past are:
996C4S/turbo
997 C2
Skyline R32/3/4
Impreza's
Evo's
UrQuattro
NSX-r
Integra-r
Ferrari
VW Golf gti
Though I'd say they never really got around to sorting out
just how all these great cars react and handle back to back in X y z
conditions.
Once Meaden compared a P1 to a Ferrari 550 and basically
driven flat out the P1 actually was that bit more composed.
Also another famous dual I remember was the 911C4s vs
NSX-r they both came mostly even- NSX just took it, though they never really directly compared how they drove back to back. Also of note
was a quip John Barker made when compring the new Golf Gti with the Golf R32 he siad that on-limit (even with smart sytems) you just couldn't tell
where you were with the 4WD Haldex R32 and that the regular Golf was just more composed when pushed. You only get that sort of insight when
you purposefully drive one car and then the other down the same road
in close to the same time.
Its pretty hard to get all these cars together and
do the sorts of tests to highlight the subtle differences- such
as mentioned here about the 911's inherent capacity to have better
braking upon weight transfer due to rear-engine.
I think this area needs more investigation.
Last edited by jeremy; 30 January 2007 at 09:55 PM. Reason: editing
30 January 2007, 11:16 PM
#83
I tend to think its about seeking cars that really
don't slide to much but that *do* slide just a bit. I think
this is what Steve is trying to say, he wants a car that slides
a bit, he would rather slide just that slight bit and know where he is
than be driving along not know that wow I'm all of a sudden in
a slide and ok lets see how the systems sorts me out- hoping
that as good as this system is, it better get on with it fast as
theres a truck over there and a barrier over here. I think Steve
would like to have the handling of a well sorted Impreza with its
slight slipping here and there*and*then a smart sytem to kick in
when things get really hairy- though I don't think Subaru
have Porsche like systems quite yet.
don't slide to much but that *do* slide just a bit. I think
this is what Steve is trying to say, he wants a car that slides
a bit, he would rather slide just that slight bit and know where he is
than be driving along not know that wow I'm all of a sudden in
a slide and ok lets see how the systems sorts me out- hoping
that as good as this system is, it better get on with it fast as
theres a truck over there and a barrier over here. I think Steve
would like to have the handling of a well sorted Impreza with its
slight slipping here and there*and*then a smart sytem to kick in
when things get really hairy- though I don't think Subaru
have Porsche like systems quite yet.
Thats exactly what i am getting at. Execpt I think you have articulated the point better than I have
The older style traction control systems - such as found on Golf VR6 for instance, were good for as long as they worked. But when you did properly lose a car with these gadgets on then it all got far harder to sort out. Obviously things have moved on abit since then and apparently I have been reliably informed the new M3 has the smart system that kicks in when things get hairy when the traction contol system is switched off.
Steve
Have you got any more info on the new traction contol systems and how they work? Are they all based around Haldex?
Last edited by Steve Whitehorn; 30 January 2007 at 11:19 PM.
31 January 2007, 03:03 AM
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Steve,
About Haldex, appartently theres a big industry
created now in the Golf and Audi community for those that want to
tweak their Haldex systems.
Some in-depth links that discuss the issues very well:
VWvortex Forums: Haldex vs. Torsen
and even better but quite long:
VWvortex Forums: Blue Haldex HPP vs. Orange Haldex Controller....the Reality...
and here:
http://www.tyresmoke.net/ubbthreads/...0/fpart/2/vc/1
Quote:
"The Haldex system is also programmable. The R32 and TT3.2
programming is more aggressive and activates earlier than
that used in the older S3, and TT225, and there's been
a recent improvement called Haldex with PreX that was
developed for the Volvo XC90 V8 that allows it to engage
pre-emptively by monitoring the rate at which the
throttle position increases, as well as lateral forces
and such. It's being sold as an aftermarket upgrade
in Europe already, and will be available for sale in the
US shortly. I've been testing the upgrade on my car
and it's good stuff. "
SO the Bottom line it would seem is that indeed up to this point, Haldex is/was a reactive system that needed some time/momentum in order to sort itself- proving in some circumstances to be less immediate and possibly less predicable than other Pro-Active systems.
However: It would now seem that the newer iterations of Haldex do work quite a bit faster so they may be "reactive" enough for most. Further, new/after-market computer mods can now turn the Haldex system into an actual full-time pro-active system- unfortunately I cannot seem to find much new/up-to-date info on these modifications? IT being two years since such modifications were made available it would seem that their effectivness or degree of development might be in question.
Note that many of the systems about which people speak are based around the braking of single wheels, whereby at the on-set of a slide a single wheel has brakes applied and as well some sytems utilize (I think Honda) traction control to actually slightly accelerate a single wheel. JL
About Haldex, appartently theres a big industry
created now in the Golf and Audi community for those that want to
tweak their Haldex systems.
Some in-depth links that discuss the issues very well:
VWvortex Forums: Haldex vs. Torsen
and even better but quite long:
VWvortex Forums: Blue Haldex HPP vs. Orange Haldex Controller....the Reality...
and here:
http://www.tyresmoke.net/ubbthreads/...0/fpart/2/vc/1
Quote:
"The Haldex system is also programmable. The R32 and TT3.2
programming is more aggressive and activates earlier than
that used in the older S3, and TT225, and there's been
a recent improvement called Haldex with PreX that was
developed for the Volvo XC90 V8 that allows it to engage
pre-emptively by monitoring the rate at which the
throttle position increases, as well as lateral forces
and such. It's being sold as an aftermarket upgrade
in Europe already, and will be available for sale in the
US shortly. I've been testing the upgrade on my car
and it's good stuff. "
SO the Bottom line it would seem is that indeed up to this point, Haldex is/was a reactive system that needed some time/momentum in order to sort itself- proving in some circumstances to be less immediate and possibly less predicable than other Pro-Active systems.
However: It would now seem that the newer iterations of Haldex do work quite a bit faster so they may be "reactive" enough for most. Further, new/after-market computer mods can now turn the Haldex system into an actual full-time pro-active system- unfortunately I cannot seem to find much new/up-to-date info on these modifications? IT being two years since such modifications were made available it would seem that their effectivness or degree of development might be in question.
Note that many of the systems about which people speak are based around the braking of single wheels, whereby at the on-set of a slide a single wheel has brakes applied and as well some sytems utilize (I think Honda) traction control to actually slightly accelerate a single wheel. JL
31 January 2007, 11:11 AM
#85
Thanks alot for taking the time to post that Jeremy.
These traction control systems obviously can initialy catch a slide (today it seems very early on) and´defy the laws of physics´ - which makes then a good saftey feature for many drivers. I still think they probably instill an overconfidence in many people to drive too quickly. However as we know you can not defy the laws of physics. I wonder what happen with these systems when a car goes beyond what they are capable of doing? Are they totaly fool proof? Surely the forces they are working against must stop them working at some point? However - I vaguely remember seeing a variant of the 911 cant remember which one with a traction control system on, on Television a few years ago, and the bloke driving just couldnt get it to unstick. So perhaps they are that good - but I cant believe that people no longer lose 911 in bends with this stuff switched on.
I had an interesting obsevation in a new Volvo V40 which you may find usefull.
Bearing in mind that as we all know - understear is the default way most manufacturers make cars behave on the limit, due to it being easier for joe public to sort out.
Firstly I took the car into the limits of grip in a curve with the traction control off - and as expected the car understeared
Secondly I took the car into the limits of grip in the SAME curve with the traction control on - the computers were very very busy working to control the understear - the car could be be pushed far further without losing grip but when it did it went into overstear. The computers were working so hard to controll the front that it was the back that was going to give up first.
So my conclusion was that with traction controll the car was far safer as it was not going to reach the limits of grip so quickly. But it if did with the system on it was going to create an overstear situation that would be far harder for joe public to sort out.
Steve
These traction control systems obviously can initialy catch a slide (today it seems very early on) and´defy the laws of physics´ - which makes then a good saftey feature for many drivers. I still think they probably instill an overconfidence in many people to drive too quickly. However as we know you can not defy the laws of physics. I wonder what happen with these systems when a car goes beyond what they are capable of doing? Are they totaly fool proof? Surely the forces they are working against must stop them working at some point? However - I vaguely remember seeing a variant of the 911 cant remember which one with a traction control system on, on Television a few years ago, and the bloke driving just couldnt get it to unstick. So perhaps they are that good - but I cant believe that people no longer lose 911 in bends with this stuff switched on.
I had an interesting obsevation in a new Volvo V40 which you may find usefull.
Bearing in mind that as we all know - understear is the default way most manufacturers make cars behave on the limit, due to it being easier for joe public to sort out.
Firstly I took the car into the limits of grip in a curve with the traction control off - and as expected the car understeared
Secondly I took the car into the limits of grip in the SAME curve with the traction control on - the computers were very very busy
working to control the understear - the car could be be pushed far further without losing grip but when it did it went into overstear. The computers were working so hard to controll the front that it was the back that was going to give up first.So my conclusion was that with traction controll the car was far safer as it was not going to reach the limits of grip so quickly. But it if did with the system on it was going to create an overstear situation that would be far harder for joe public to sort out.
Steve
31 January 2007, 05:36 PM
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Great posts here.
I tend to think its about seeking cars that really
don't slide to much but that *do* slide just a bit. I think
this is what Steve is trying to say, he wants a car that slides
a bit, he would rather slide just that slight bit and know where he is
than be driving along not know that wow I'm all of a sudden in
a slide and ok lets see how the systems sorts me out- hoping
that as good as this system is, it better get on with it fast as
theres a truck over there and a barrier over here. I think Steve
would like to have the handling of a well sorted Impreza with its
slight slipping here and there*and*then a smart sytem to kick in
when things get really hairy- though I don't think Subaru
have Porsche like systems quite yet.
I tend to think its about seeking cars that really
don't slide to much but that *do* slide just a bit. I think
this is what Steve is trying to say, he wants a car that slides
a bit, he would rather slide just that slight bit and know where he is
than be driving along not know that wow I'm all of a sudden in
a slide and ok lets see how the systems sorts me out- hoping
that as good as this system is, it better get on with it fast as
theres a truck over there and a barrier over here. I think Steve
would like to have the handling of a well sorted Impreza with its
slight slipping here and there*and*then a smart sytem to kick in
when things get really hairy- though I don't think Subaru
have Porsche like systems quite yet.
Last edited by sandycam; 31 January 2007 at 05:59 PM.
31 January 2007, 06:00 PM
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VAG built all of the Porsche 924*, 944 and 968 cars at Neckarsulm, with the exception of the last 968s. You can tell where a car was built from the VIN number: WPOzzz96zNN8????? was built in Neckarsulm and WPOzzz96zPS8????? was built in Stuttgart.
*924Turbo engines were built in Stuttgart but assembled into cars in Neckarsulm
31 January 2007, 06:05 PM
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ps just to make it clear, i'm not slagging the scoob here or anything just saying that when driving fast(ish) on a b road on a wet and windy night, if the cost of putting it back together again wasn't playing on my mind, i would rather drive my 996 turbo than my 2.5 wrx. For the reason that i could still have a bit of fun sliding the turbo in small amounts while having the reassurance that the car would have a very good chance of catching the slide if i got a bit too sure of myself or something unexpected happened.
31 January 2007, 06:15 PM
#90
ps just to make it clear, i'm not slagging the scoob here or anything just saying that when driving fast(ish) on a b road on a wet and windy night, if the cost of putting it back together again wasn't playing on my mind, i would rather drive my 996 turbo than my 2.5 wrx. For the reason that i could still have a bit of fun sliding the turbo in small amounts while having the reassurance that the car would have a very good chance of catching the slide if i got a bit too sure of myself or something unexpected happened.