Nido

The Sun have allowed TV & Radio etc to broadcast the footage but are not allowing any other websites to host clips. In saying that I'm sure somebody has copied it off the TV and uploaded to You-Tube etc, but I doubt it will be the full 15 minutes, which you really need to see all of to get the big picture.

I don't know what to think of this, the pilots were given permission to fire and did repeatedly check there were no friendly forces within the area.

However, they obviously had significant doubt, they mention the orange tops to the vehicles several times, they are clearly not sure, and the vehicles were not presenting an immediate risk at that time.

Being fired upon by an A-10 can't be a nice way to go, particulary when it's from somebody on the same side

Alg

"Bing bong"

"Tape measure for Sbradley, DCI Gene Hunt and wrx-yank"

Sbradley

Agreed 100%. Except that they weren't under fire. Not even a little bit. Probably because our troops recognised friendly aircraft when they saw them (Granted, by the way, that it's bloody hard not to recognise an A10)

War is an awful thing and mistakes do get made. The trouble is that when the miltary of more than one country is involved, especially when one of those countries has a reputation for both friendly fire incidents and litigation, the authorities may not be entirely forthcoming with the facts.

I don't think the objective of this exercise is a witch-hunt, or even a civil suit. I just think these people want to understand how their son was killed by friendly fire. And if releasing the evidence allows lessons to be learned so that it doesn't happen again, even if it's just tightening up (or introducing) safeguards then while the death will still have been pointless, at least it won't have been wasted...

Does that last bit makes sense?

SB

Nimbus

Thanks. Does the Sun website host the whole clip then? If so I'll have to wait until I get home to see it.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Yep I agree with the bit about letting the families know and learning lessons. I just don't see what airing the mistake in front of the general public does...about from generate hostility towards the US!

I know they weren't under fire in this instance, but IIRC at the start of the vid they comment about needing to deal with any threats before they reach a town...........there are so many things we dont know even having seen this video. That's why IMHO it's best to let the military deal with these situations; it's just impossible for the GP not to react completely emotively to such a horrible mistake and for the whole thing to decend into a witch hunt.

Ns04

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

I have to comment on S Bradley's sensible approach to all of this.


As for who's to blame I honestly believe judging by the video and audio that the pilots did pretty much everything they could to clarify if there were friendlies in the area. They were told on several occasions that there weren't. Although if they were in doubt they shouldn't have opened fire

The US military is in general a mess. They are unorganised, poorly trained an undisciplined. They just have volume of men and state of the art equipment.

Show simialr footage from a Tornado pilot and they wouldn't be refering to other pilots as dude!!

Daz

Nido

Yes

Jerome

I beggars belief that these pilots didn't know what the orange blobs were.

All British vehicles in Iraq had 3 different methods of identification to prevent a repeat of the Gulf War when they opened fire on British APCs.

The orange blobs on the roof were just one of the 3 methods used to prevent US pilots from firing on them and it sounds like they used that as the main reason for opening fire. Unfeckingbelievable.

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

Of course Orange blobs are impossible for the enemy to replicate!

Seamaster

they treat life like kids. the biggewst issue is the yanks trying to hinder this inquest. Thatcher would have Bush ***** on a plate. Tony has them in his mouth.



Lets stand up as a nation and tell the yankers exactly what we think.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

I'll drink to that! As an aside can one expect impartiality and transparency from an American administration with snouts deep in war and petrochemical industries?



Another episode which epitomizes the U.S 'Rambo' style of approach was the apparent 'rescue' of one of their servicewomen, her name escapes me. There was much clamour and hoo ha about a daring night time operation, when infact the she was being returned in an ambulance! The ambulance was attacked and the servicewoman 'heroically rescued'. You will find no public testimony at all of this woman. She was 'gagged' and has gone into obscurity.

richie001

iTrader: (3)

Just seen the full 15min video i feel sorry for the family of the dead soldier who must be going though hell again.We work with American Forces all the time and this happens all the time.Why is it that American keep on doing it ie they own army blackhawk helicopter which a usaf f15 pilot couldn't tell the different between it and Iraqi army helicopter and was shot down killing 26 soldiers

brihoppy

i fully believe that the 'friendly' fire incidents involving the americans are purely down to the majority of them being triggy happy b*stards...

i was talking to a para who was on his way home after the initial fighting and he told me that his section was on patrol in an urban area when they came under fire...after carrying out the usual sop, they identified their attackers as us troops...apparantly they tried for several minutes to identify themselves by radio and even by flying a uj that they carried for that very purpose, but to no avail...eventually he said they got so pissed off they returned fire to such a volume that the americans retreated...fortunately, no-one was hurt in that instance...

also, how does a patriot battery mistake a tornado for a scud missile...yeah i know they said it couldve been a silkworm as the iraqis were using them, but do be serious...!!!

the main reason i believe what i do is not based solely on these and other blue on blues, but from a conversation i had with an american who was on her way to a forward area...she was about 20, and she was clerk and in her own words she told me she 'couldnt wait to cap a raghead...'

'but youre a clerk?' i said to her...her reply 'yeah, but im still trained to kill...!!!'

what kind of mentality is that...?

out of interest, i know there are occasions when weve had our own incidents, but can anyone think of an incident where the british have opened fire on friendly forces...? (not saying they havent, but ill bet it wasnt just so they could get their gun off...!!!)

Sbradley

Sadly, yes. Certainly one I know of, in the Falklands. Argentine trops had FNs, we had SLRs which look identical. Similar combat gear, too. Night time, poor weather, limited intel on enemy and friendly troop locations. Two British patrols engaged each other. No fatalities as far as I know but a couple of nasty injuries.

A friend's grandfather said that they used to fly near the Fleet in their Sea Hurricanes and at least half the time someone would shoot at them. A bit of a bugger when you're trying to land on a carrier at the time...

SB

brihoppy

sb, what i actually meant was firing on other nats...can seem to remember when we lost a marine in basra in 03 to our own friendly fire...?

Sbradley

Ah, I see.

Probably, though I can't think of any particular examples. I suspect we probably shot down some US or Australian aircraft in the Pacific theatre in WWII, and we probably did the same in Europe. I also suspect we took out some friendly armour with rockets in Normandy or the Ardennes. But I can't give you any examples.

Oh, and in mitigation, there weren't the identification aids that we've got now - IFF was in it's infancy and most weapons were still unguided and aimed visually.

SB

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

I thought I heard reports that the reason the aircrew were told that there were no friendlies in the area was because they had reported their current position incorrectly? The radio today was saying that they were in a different area to where they should have been. Don't know if any of that is confirmed as yet.

So, yes they did ask many times if there were friendlies around, but if they were not where they were supposed to be that kind of puts a different spin on things. Like, how did they not know they were in the wrong place, and how did their controller not know they were in the wrong place?

TopBanana

From LiveLeak:

Circling at an altitude of 12,000ft, the A-10s spotted Iraqi vehicles 800 yards north, and the British patrol less than three miles west.

ERROR ONE came when they asked the Forward Air Controller, call sign Manila Hotel, if friendly forces were around the Iraqi vehicles — not to the west.
In ERROR TWO neither pilot gave the precise grid references for the Household Cavalry patrol to double check its identity.
ERROR THREE saw them convince themselves the identification panels were really orange rocket launchers.
In ERROR FOUR POPOV36 decides to attack, saying he is “rolling in” — without permission from the Forward Air Controller. POPOV35 asks for artillery to fire a marker round into the target area to clear up confusion.
But ERROR FIVE came when POPOV36 attacked without waiting for it.
In ERROR SIX POPOV36 strafes the column for a second time but still doubts its identity.

Only the bravery of Trooper Chris Finney, 18, stopped further attacks. He jumped on a burning vehicle to radio in a Mayday report and call off the strike, dragged a badly wounded comrade from the inferno, then went back in for L/Cpl Hull. He was injured and won the George Cross.

POPOV36 is known to be a lieutenant colonel, and POPOV35 a major, but their identities have never been released. Neither has the result of a US Air Force inquiry.

wrx_yank

i can honestly tell you there was no ****ing way there were 26 people in a hawk....


<---- flies hawks....

andythejock01wrx

I can recall it being said in a documentary about the War in Europe post 6/6/44 that "friendly fire" was in fact quite common, although "accepted as part of war" and not widely reported.

Clearly avoidable errors were made with regard to this "blue on blue" attack in Iraq. The pilots should have had sufficient training re vehicle recognition - in fact they had been told nothing about recognition of British vehicles according to the BBC. They should have known what the orange markings meant. Mosts of all, the Forward Air Controller should have known who was who, or at least offered a few words of caution !

Still, these things happen and will happen again - around the same time a Challenger2 fired on a Challenger2, killing a crew member.

Sbradley

I didn't rise to that one - to be honest I didn't even notice it...

SB (Was based at Ft Rucker as a consultant and has flown 'hawks and all sorts from there as well as doing an exchange at Mirimar flying the SH60N )

Sbradley

However.

We did upset the base commander at Lakeheath shortly afterwards.

We had a visit planned for some particular project I was working on which required 2 helicopters. So my colleague took a Lynx and I took a Hind-F which we had on loan from the Germans (I was the only person on strength who was cleared on type at the time. Lucky me )

Anyway. To avoid confusion, there being F15s around and all, we had HIND painted on the fuselage in dayglo orange. And NOT HIND painted on the Lynx...

And I always credited the Americans with a healthy sense of humour. Sorry, humor. Guess I was mistaken in this case - we were sent off with a flea in our ear and were refused permission to land... Childish but bloody funny

SB

andythejock01wrx

Good 'un !

bluenosewrx

iTrader: (2)

What makes me laugh is i've met many US servicmen close up etc and never felt comfortable with them or their methods, trigger happy.

Orange rockets??????, who would in their right mind have rockets painted orange and travelling along the road in war???????Popov 36 seems to me to want to take them out whatever.

mac

CrisPDuk

One of the major grievances of the army personnel being evacuated at Dunkirk was that the RAF were noticeable by their absence The RAF were there, the only problem was, every time their pilot's got close enough to the beach to have any effect, the Royal Navy were doing there damnedest to shoot them down

CrisPDuk

Watched it last night, to me the whole thing was very reminiscent of the incident involving the Canadians on the bridge in Afghanistan. The only difference being that in Afghanistan the pilots were told there were friendlies in the area In both cases I got the impression that the pilots were just itching to 'blow something, anything, away'


That's all well and good, except:

1/ They were in A10s which aren't capable of 300mph even going downhill with a good tailwind.

2/ The A10 isn't capable of pulling 'significant' G forces without it's wings falling off either.

3/ As Simon has already pointed out, they were not under fire, more likely they were bored and itching for some action, and, most importantly,

4/ Why the **** shouldn't we be critical of them, it's their job, it's what they are trained to do (allegedly). If I fcuked up at work to the extent where I killed colleagues, my **** would already be in prison


Also, I think it's a safe bet that if the roles were reversed a British pilot killed a US serviceman*, Tony would've handed him over to George, gift-wrapped, before the guns were even cold

*Hardly likely I know, for two reasons, our troops and pilots are properly trained, and knowing the MoD, the plane's guns would have been empty due to supply shortages

CrisPDuk

Bri, dont you know, it's the American Way Always has been
It's in the constitution, the right to bear arms and kill foreigners indiscriminately

Remember their military's motto:

"The only good Redskin/Redcoat/Mexican/******/Jap/*****/Commie/Gook/Raghead* is a dead one"

The Iraqi's are just the latest in a long line

*Depends on where the fight was, delete where appropriate

Tuts

^ Are you nuts? They aren't airfix kits you know....They are accepted to have a max sea level speed of about 420mph and as far a Max G I have no idea but I believe its fairly high. If they didn't pull G why would the pilots wear G suits?

Slightly off topic but at least get half a clue before posting. Obviously the soldiers and families are going through **** right now but the pilots don't have it easy either.

Edit to add...Bad taste I know but I lol'd at the paras returning fire story!

brihoppy

i forgot about that challenger incident...

andythejock01wrx

Fair play. Not one of us can remember every significant incident - least of all me !