US air strike on UK troops.. film footage on GMTV
09 February 2007, 07:01 PM
#153
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(This isn't a direct attack at you.. but.. )
Neither the US nor the UK are some 3rd rate conscript armed forces. We owe it to ourselves to have more professional pride than except that this kind of things just "happen". They only happen because of stupidity and incompetance, and as professionals we shouldn't accept, condone nor make excuses for it.
If the excuse is that its war and confusing and dangerous - well I'm sorry, I thought thats what we're trained for. If people can't do their job in these situations I would suggest that the military isn't meant for them.
Neither the US nor the UK are some 3rd rate conscript armed forces. We owe it to ourselves to have more professional pride than except that this kind of things just "happen". They only happen because of stupidity and incompetance, and as professionals we shouldn't accept, condone nor make excuses for it.
If the excuse is that its war and confusing and dangerous - well I'm sorry, I thought thats what we're trained for. If people can't do their job in these situations I would suggest that the military isn't meant for them.
i am NOT defending these pilots.... everyone is useing me as the scapegoat, i am siply trying to stop the ignorant internet macho's from only seeing it one sided and hating all americans.
09 February 2007, 07:02 PM
#154
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09 February 2007, 07:03 PM
#155
Although I do think the US should invoke a new law preventing anyone from Idaho talking to international press *ever* again.
09 February 2007, 07:07 PM
#156
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No. I for one like America and it people. Its your fukkd army that myself and just about the rest of th eworld has a issue with.
now it wont take long... US forces do not pay the normal income tax in Uk.
correct me please
09 February 2007, 07:08 PM
#158
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no, but council tax , MOT, road tax, tv tax, and VAT.... all gay in my book.
09 February 2007, 07:27 PM
#161
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Quite a lot of ill informed opinions on this topic being bandied about,
imo it is very difficult in the heat of the moment to "make to right call" however, i do know that if you are in any doubt, any doubt at all then you should stop, re-think and have another look.
Do this as many time as necessary untill you are completely happy that you will be doing the right thing by opening fire, because once you have done that, there is no taking it back! the pilots in question didn't do that, they had no reason to open fire, they were not being fired upon (NO Brit squaddie is dumb enough to start a fight with an A10, cos we do know what they look like, and we do know what they are capable of, remember the first Gulf War, well that was a Warrior APC that they took out with the same bloody aircraft, in a very very similar situation) and in that particular aircraft it can take far far more grief/hassle/abuse/punishment than what any Iraqi oppressor would have been capable of dishing out.
If anyone on here has actually met and tried to work with your average Iraqi Soldier, you would have been shocked by how very stupid and very very lazy these people are.
The pilots were reliant on information, and if that information said that there were no friendlies in the area, you could understand the confusion, it's not defence of the pilots as they have the ultimate say and the finger on the trigger but i can see how it could happen in a pressured situation - i still maintain that they should have been 110% sure that they were firing within the RULES OF ENGAGEMENT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SET AT THE START OF THE MISSION.
All rules of engagement state that you must be sure that your actions clearly and i mean CLEARLY, fall within the boundaries set by those rules.
I would also like to add that NOT all Americans are trigger happy, NOT all Americans are ******** (lots are mind you) i have worked with several in this particular environment and have considerable praise for them from my own experience.
The ones i have worked with regard us as Brit Squaddies as the absolute dogs conkers and are/were very compliant with out requests for assistance (which we needed due to our current Governments special way of financing our Military)
You can't judge the entire American Military by the actions of but a few, same can be said for our own as well, most would do well to remember that.
imo it is very difficult in the heat of the moment to "make to right call" however, i do know that if you are in any doubt, any doubt at all then you should stop, re-think and have another look.
Do this as many time as necessary untill you are completely happy that you will be doing the right thing by opening fire, because once you have done that, there is no taking it back! the pilots in question didn't do that, they had no reason to open fire, they were not being fired upon (NO Brit squaddie is dumb enough to start a fight with an A10, cos we do know what they look like, and we do know what they are capable of, remember the first Gulf War, well that was a Warrior APC that they took out with the same bloody aircraft, in a very very similar situation) and in that particular aircraft it can take far far more grief/hassle/abuse/punishment than what any Iraqi oppressor would have been capable of dishing out.
If anyone on here has actually met and tried to work with your average Iraqi Soldier, you would have been shocked by how very stupid and very very lazy these people are.
The pilots were reliant on information, and if that information said that there were no friendlies in the area, you could understand the confusion, it's not defence of the pilots as they have the ultimate say and the finger on the trigger but i can see how it could happen in a pressured situation - i still maintain that they should have been 110% sure that they were firing within the RULES OF ENGAGEMENT THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN SET AT THE START OF THE MISSION.
All rules of engagement state that you must be sure that your actions clearly and i mean CLEARLY, fall within the boundaries set by those rules.
I would also like to add that NOT all Americans are trigger happy, NOT all Americans are ******** (lots are mind you) i have worked with several in this particular environment and have considerable praise for them from my own experience.
The ones i have worked with regard us as Brit Squaddies as the absolute dogs conkers and are/were very compliant with out requests for assistance (which we needed due to our current Governments special way of financing our Military)
You can't judge the entire American Military by the actions of but a few, same can be said for our own as well, most would do well to remember that.
Last edited by scoobysmiff; 09 February 2007 at 07:58 PM.
09 February 2007, 07:31 PM
#163
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Sometimes these situations need ill informed opinions.
While the "experts" are waffling on about gun ranges, armour thickness, etc, people on the "outside" are actually able to notice that the US are the kings of the blue on blue.
While the "experts" are waffling on about gun ranges, armour thickness, etc, people on the "outside" are actually able to notice that the US are the kings of the blue on blue.
09 February 2007, 07:34 PM
#164
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09 February 2007, 08:03 PM
#165
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He did ask for conf on friendlies in the area, but they spotted the orange panels so should have done a low level flyby to confirm.
The forward air controller wants interviewing on why he gave confirmation.
And above all, if in doubt, don't pull the bloody trigger.
In this case I won't knock the pilot, but he should have done a fly by, however the yank who navigated for my ex's father deserves all the **** taking going.
The forward air controller wants interviewing on why he gave confirmation.
And above all, if in doubt, don't pull the bloody trigger.
In this case I won't knock the pilot, but he should have done a fly by, however the yank who navigated for my ex's father deserves all the **** taking going.
09 February 2007, 08:04 PM
#166
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Poor excuse. you bottled it. One of me and you couldnt face it. you run off to be breast fed.
I think your a coward and a liar.
so post a pic of her **** and lets see if your telling the truth?
I think your a coward and a liar.
so post a pic of her **** and lets see if your telling the truth?
09 February 2007, 08:14 PM
#168
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Neither do I!
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I just look at the pictures!! 
BTW one for the military experts, I'm curious:
Given the UK government's history of not equipping our brave troops adequately, could this be the reason that UK forces in the area did not have the IFF (is it?) system, which would have immediately identified them as friendly on the pilots heads up display (presumably)
I see how this system could be abused by the enemy should an allied vehicle be captured, but surely that's a risk easily negated and certainly worth taking.
BTW I'm not saying this excuses or substitutes for good old fashioned protocol and common sense, so just genuine answers please!
Ns04
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I just look at the pictures!!
BTW one for the military experts, I'm curious:
Given the UK government's history of not equipping our brave troops adequately, could this be the reason that UK forces in the area did not have the IFF (is it?) system, which would have immediately identified them as friendly on the pilots heads up display (presumably)
I see how this system could be abused by the enemy should an allied vehicle be captured, but surely that's a risk easily negated and certainly worth taking.
BTW I'm not saying this excuses or substitutes for good old fashioned protocol and common sense, so just genuine answers please!
Ns04
09 February 2007, 08:30 PM
#173
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We could have had a FF ID on our new system of radios but guess what, the budget wouldn't stretch that far, i wouldn't have thought that it was that hard to sort out and impliment, you have the equiv on your mobile phone FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
09 February 2007, 08:37 PM
#174
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Taking up Leslies' point about target recognition, at a Red Flag in 2001 i was amazed when a US jockey arrived on the line and asked what were the visual differences between the Tonka F3 and the GR's. Taking into account that he was a F15 jockey and was supposed to be protecting the Gr bombing package, whilst we in with the F3's were providing "Red" air, it made us wonder a little whether he would just see a tonka forget the type and let rip.
I have worked with the americans around the world, granted just from an air force point of view, i have found them great to work with as they don't mind a rag tag bunch of fat techies beg, boring and stealing kit to get our jets up. they constantly seem amazed at how few people we have, and the breadth of our trade boundaries.
Though the quote of the year goes to Big Rig at Mountain Home, Boise, Idaho 2005 when approached by an american crew chief he was asked "how does it feel not to be in the the biggest air force in the world?" to which the Big lad replied with out looking up from his task " how does it feel not to be in the best?"
I have worked with the americans around the world, granted just from an air force point of view, i have found them great to work with as they don't mind a rag tag bunch of fat techies beg, boring and stealing kit to get our jets up. they constantly seem amazed at how few people we have, and the breadth of our trade boundaries.
Though the quote of the year goes to Big Rig at Mountain Home, Boise, Idaho 2005 when approached by an american crew chief he was asked "how does it feel not to be in the the biggest air force in the world?" to which the Big lad replied with out looking up from his task " how does it feel not to be in the best?"
09 February 2007, 08:42 PM
#175
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[quote=New_scooby_04;6642929]Neither do I!
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Given the UK government's history of not equipping our brave troops adequately, could this be the reason that UK forces in the area did not have the IFF (is it?) system, which would have immediately identified them as friendly on the pilots heads up display (presumably)
I see how this system could be abused by the enemy should an allied vehicle be captured, but surely that's a risk easily negated and certainly worth taking.
Gr4's are fitted with IFF and on take off it would have been working, however as all those that have worked on Tonkas of any varient (sp) will understand, the all weather fighter or bomber varients have the remarkable ability to drop systems with wild abandon so it is quite easy for the IFF system to have been U/S on it's return to base.
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Given the UK government's history of not equipping our brave troops adequately, could this be the reason that UK forces in the area did not have the IFF (is it?) system, which would have immediately identified them as friendly on the pilots heads up display (presumably)
I see how this system could be abused by the enemy should an allied vehicle be captured, but surely that's a risk easily negated and certainly worth taking.
Gr4's are fitted with IFF and on take off it would have been working, however as all those that have worked on Tonkas of any varient (sp) will understand, the all weather fighter or bomber varients have the remarkable ability to drop systems with wild abandon so it is quite easy for the IFF system to have been U/S on it's return to base.
09 February 2007, 09:57 PM
#176
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[QUOTE=rob878;6643026]
Can anybody translate for me ? 
Just kidding. Tornados and their bits I guess !
Neither do I!
Gr4's are fitted with IFF and on take off it would have been working, however as all those that have worked on Tonkas of any varient (sp) will understand, the all weather fighter or bomber varients have the remarkable ability to drop systems with wild abandon so it is quite easy for the IFF system to have been U/S on it's return to base.
Gr4's are fitted with IFF and on take off it would have been working, however as all those that have worked on Tonkas of any varient (sp) will understand, the all weather fighter or bomber varients have the remarkable ability to drop systems with wild abandon so it is quite easy for the IFF system to have been U/S on it's return to base.
Just kidding.
Tornados and their bits I guess !
10 February 2007, 12:18 AM
#177
The kit your referring to as IFF for ground vehicles doesn't work in the same way as an IFF "sqwark" from an aircraft.
Basically the system acts as a posh trackstar+ allowing you to see at a glance on a map where all your vehicles are located. The pilot would not know they were friendlies simply by looking at them (other than the fact that the Iraqis don't have Scimitars of course....). But their controller would have been able to look at the screen in front of him and immediatly inform the pilot of friendly forces locations. Google search "Blue Force Tracker".
Very good system. We don't have it because we're a 1st world army working on a 3rd world budget.
Basically the system acts as a posh trackstar+ allowing you to see at a glance on a map where all your vehicles are located. The pilot would not know they were friendlies simply by looking at them (other than the fact that the Iraqis don't have Scimitars of course....). But their controller would have been able to look at the screen in front of him and immediatly inform the pilot of friendly forces locations. Google search "Blue Force Tracker".
Very good system. We don't have it because we're a 1st world army working on a 3rd world budget.
10 February 2007, 12:21 AM
#178
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10 February 2007, 01:11 AM
#179
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I think that you should keep off the ClassAs; seeing as you plainly cant deal deal with it.
10 February 2007, 09:28 AM
#180
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colors of the day? where do you get this ****? orange is on all coalition vehicles, and it never changes.... its called a VS-17 pannel and it is 12x18 inches.... not so easy to see from 3000 feet huh? and anyone can buy them for 15$ online.... do your homework honey b4 you run yout mouth.
If you had you'd have known that Les is a nuclear bomber pilot. formerly of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force
In case you don't know, the RAF is like your United States Air Force, but with professionals, and basic target recognition training
Originally Posted by Flightman
It always amazes me how many morons there are, willing to jump on any bandwagon going.
" I hope he gets a good kicking" You're as brainwashed by The Sun as the "dumb Americans" you so obviously hate.
It was a tragic mistake. You can dress it up however you like, but if those guys were certain that those vehicles contained Brits, do you really think they'd have fired?
" I hope he gets a good kicking" You're as brainwashed by The Sun as the "dumb Americans" you so obviously hate.
It was a tragic mistake. You can dress it up however you like, but if those guys were certain that those vehicles contained Brits, do you really think they'd have fired?
Last edited by CrisPDuk; 10 February 2007 at 09:31 AM.