US air strike on UK troops.. film footage on GMTV
10 February 2007, 10:02 AM
#181
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And funnily enough, prior to the invasion Iraqis weren't blowing Americans up either ********
For the record, re: your earlier post "Only following orders" is not an acceptable defence, see Nuremberg 1946
Neither pilot was reprimanded by US authorities for the friendly fire horror. On Tuesday, The Pentagon said a US inquiry concluded the pilots “followed the procedures and processes for engaging targets”.
But a British Army report concluded: “The Board found that procedures were not followed.”
It then listed a series of failings by the A10 pilots.
Among them, it states that “the degree of aircrew/Forward Air Controller awareness and understanding was insufficient”. It continued: “Neither target description nor location of the final target was passed by POPOV35 to MANILA HOTEL (the ground controller’s call sign).” And crucially, it damningly stated: “The aircrew did not receive clear authority from the Forward Air Controller for POPOV36 to engage.”
Colonel Kohntopp’s individual actions are also singled out for criticism. The report said: “POPOV36 showed a single-minded pursuit of the UK vehicles.
“There is no indication he was sensitive to POPOV35’s workload or the difficulties posed by addressing two possible targets at the same time.”
But a British Army report concluded: “The Board found that procedures were not followed.”
It then listed a series of failings by the A10 pilots.
Among them, it states that “the degree of aircrew/Forward Air Controller awareness and understanding was insufficient”. It continued: “Neither target description nor location of the final target was passed by POPOV35 to MANILA HOTEL (the ground controller’s call sign).” And crucially, it damningly stated: “The aircrew did not receive clear authority from the Forward Air Controller for POPOV36 to engage.”
Colonel Kohntopp’s individual actions are also singled out for criticism. The report said: “POPOV36 showed a single-minded pursuit of the UK vehicles.
“There is no indication he was sensitive to POPOV35’s workload or the difficulties posed by addressing two possible targets at the same time.”
This wrx yank, is why the rest of the world trusts neither your country or it's Military
Just look at their behaviour following this incident
BBC ON THIS DAY | 3 | 1998: Military jet causes cable car tragedy
It's also probably why the Americangovernment is refusing to ratify the reciprocity clause in the new extradition treaty Bliar 'negotiated' with them
10 February 2007, 11:51 AM
#183
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colors of the day? where do you get this ****? orange is on all coalition vehicles, and it never changes.... its called a VS-17 pannel and it is 12x18 inches.... not so easy to see from 3000 feet huh? and anyone can buy them for 15$ online.... do your homework honey b4 you run yout mouth.
and that GR-1 tornado was not squawking correct... he was squawking 7001, meaning he was VFR (visual flight rules) ... so yea, correct for no clouds ,but that is about it, not correct for that theatre of battle.... stop getting your military reports form the news! they just make you look like a ****.
and that GR-1 tornado was not squawking correct... he was squawking 7001, meaning he was VFR (visual flight rules) ... so yea, correct for no clouds ,but that is about it, not correct for that theatre of battle.... stop getting your military reports form the news! they just make you look like a ****.
"Colours of the Day" is an expression which is used regularly in the US Forces, I am well used to it since I did many exercises with them including two Red Flags, so I do know a bit more than you give me credit for. Orange was of course the identity for the UK vehicles. There is a procedure sometimes used which will change those colours for extra security.
Yes I do understand the word brevity as applied to R/T transmissions, we use it all the time. It is considered that long conversations do not aid the passage of vital information especially in a case like this.
I do of course know what a visual identification panel is, my job was ground attack so that sort of thing was second nature to me.
The point is of course, did your pilots know that. They were heard to say that they saw orange markings while they were at height. Don't you think that if they knew the identification colour that they would have been well advised to check whether those marking were panels, or rockets as they said at the time. the inflight visibility from an A10 is excellent and the pilot is well protected with titanium armour. Do you think it was the right thing to do to launch a full blooded attack from 3,000 feet without having identified what they were shooting at?
And don't you think that they should have been able to recognise what their allies' vehicles looked like. The description of "little yellow tanks" is hardly good enough! Why don't you do some study on target recognition?
My information about the Tornado came from my own military sources and was truthful.
I suggest that before shooting your own mouth off, and also being so childishly insulting, that you get your own thinking straightened out.
I hope this is not too much reading for you all at once!
Les
Last edited by Leslie; 10 February 2007 at 12:52 PM. Reason: corrected due to further information.
10 February 2007, 12:11 PM
#184
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Lets turn the tables for 1 moment.
How would you feel WRX Tank if a UK section took out a US flight in self defence?
Not that we would, we know what your aircraft look like! How about returning us the favour and learning what our stuff looks like.
How would you feel WRX Tank if a UK section took out a US flight in self defence?
Not that we would, we know what your aircraft look like! How about returning us the favour and learning what our stuff looks like.
10 February 2007, 12:20 PM
#185
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Leslie
he did confirm that he is only paying the usual taxes etc. Not income tax.
In the last few years I attended a Cobra Gold and whilst amazed at the equipment and technology the Americans have . Which is real trick and cool etc. The tech guys where unreal, real cool guys and excellent. But the average soilder etc was too 'trigger happy" in life. I remeber the first time I arrived in ireland.... we didnt say much to each other !! The Yanks go into war thinking its going to be a "party" .Ive said it time after time. Its like they are numb to the real world and issue they are facing.
he did confirm that he is only paying the usual taxes etc. Not income tax.
In the last few years I attended a Cobra Gold and whilst amazed at the equipment and technology the Americans have . Which is real trick and cool etc. The tech guys where unreal, real cool guys and excellent. But the average soilder etc was too 'trigger happy" in life. I remeber the first time I arrived in ireland.... we didnt say much to each other !! The Yanks go into war thinking its going to be a "party" .Ive said it time after time. Its like they are numb to the real world and issue they are facing.
10 February 2007, 12:56 PM
#187
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Anyone hear about a massive US training exercise that accidentally used live instead of blank rounds some years back?
Many casualties and kept very hush hush.
Effective accurate range of the GAU8 cannon is about 1km. The A10 was at 3000ft - That's about 1km up.
So unless it was firing vertically downwards, it would have been more than than 1km away.
So they were firing wild shots out of what I'd call visual range (unless they were relying on their HUD targeting systems "aim") at unidentified targets.
Hmmm....
Many casualties and kept very hush hush.
Effective accurate range of the GAU8 cannon is about 1km. The A10 was at 3000ft - That's about 1km up.
So unless it was firing vertically downwards, it would have been more than than 1km away.
So they were firing wild shots out of what I'd call visual range (unless they were relying on their HUD targeting systems "aim") at unidentified targets.
Hmmm....
10 February 2007, 02:19 PM
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10 February 2007, 03:33 PM
#190
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The kit your referring to as IFF for ground vehicles doesn't work in the same way as an IFF "sqwark" from an aircraft.
Basically the system acts as a posh trackstar+ allowing you to see at a glance on a map where all your vehicles are located. The pilot would not know they were friendlies simply by looking at them (other than the fact that the Iraqis don't have Scimitars of course....). But their controller would have been able to look at the screen in front of him and immediatly inform the pilot of friendly forces locations. Google search "Blue Force Tracker".
Very good system. We don't have it because we're a 1st world army working on a 3rd world budget.
Basically the system acts as a posh trackstar+ allowing you to see at a glance on a map where all your vehicles are located. The pilot would not know they were friendlies simply by looking at them (other than the fact that the Iraqis don't have Scimitars of course....). But their controller would have been able to look at the screen in front of him and immediatly inform the pilot of friendly forces locations. Google search "Blue Force Tracker".
Very good system. We don't have it because we're a 1st world army working on a 3rd world budget.
Britain and France looked to adopt a first-tier solution - considerably better than the US second-tier solution, your posh "trackstar+". Unfortunately, the US has not adopted the first-tier solution (Rayco make a rather nice one, so it isn't like US industry would have lost out) which conforms to STANAG 4579, which would have interoperated effectively with other allied forces.
The (cheaper) second-tier solution adopted by the US is great for US looking after themselves, but not as effective in a multi-force deployment. Essentially, the US have pretty much concluded as long as their guys are okay, they pretty much don't give a monkey's how many non-US allied forces they wipe out.
The trouble is, the UK could go ahead and develop their system and operate well with the French and other UK troops, but that wouldn't stop the vast majority of the friendly fire incidents, because the US equipment would not be compatible.
Last edited by Sprint Chief; 10 February 2007 at 03:36 PM.
10 February 2007, 05:51 PM
#191
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[QUOTE=CrisPDuk;6644207]You should have taken your own advice there on the homework wrx
If you had you'd have known that Les is a nuclear bomber pilot. formerly of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force
[QUOTE]
i dont care, a monkey has been to space, your point....
if your pilots are gods gift to aviation, then why do we OWN your asses at red flag every year?
If you had you'd have known that Les is a nuclear bomber pilot. formerly of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force
[QUOTE]
i dont care, a monkey has been to space, your point....
if your pilots are gods gift to aviation, then why do we OWN your asses at red flag every year?
10 February 2007, 06:02 PM
#192
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Some of you were looking for a link to the person ITN managed to find as representative of US opinions on this event.
It's here: YouTube - Interview with friend of Idaho pilot in friendly fire story
SB
It's here: YouTube - Interview with friend of Idaho pilot in friendly fire story
SB
10 February 2007, 06:04 PM
#193
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arguing with you ***-hats is like feeding a retard. no matter how much usefull stuff you put in , slop gets spit out.
keep reading the sun you ignorant ethnocentric fools....
they were at 3000 feet because that is their hard deck, helos supposedly own below that, unles it is CSAR RESCORT.....
your "effective range" bologna is proposterous.... a .50cal can go 1500 meters and still penetrate armor.... you think 30mm can only go 2/3 of that?
your dunb soldiers should have shot back.... that pilot was a moron.... , then again he would have recieved the SAFIRE and dropped a bomb on the dumbasses!
so you decide... im done trying to hold an intelligent conversation with you bandwagon jumping scapegoaters.
every time you lose an arguement, you come up with some slick line like "england is better than USA... uhhhh you suck, we rule" ( not your exact words, but that is the jist) good comeback children.... have a nice day.
keep reading the sun you ignorant ethnocentric fools....
they were at 3000 feet because that is their hard deck, helos supposedly own below that, unles it is CSAR RESCORT.....
your "effective range" bologna is proposterous.... a .50cal can go 1500 meters and still penetrate armor.... you think 30mm can only go 2/3 of that?
your dunb soldiers should have shot back.... that pilot was a moron.... , then again he would have recieved the SAFIRE and dropped a bomb on the dumbasses!
so you decide... im done trying to hold an intelligent conversation with you bandwagon jumping scapegoaters.
every time you lose an arguement, you come up with some slick line like "england is better than USA... uhhhh you suck, we rule" ( not your exact words, but that is the jist) good comeback children.... have a nice day.
10 February 2007, 06:09 PM
#194
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[quote=wrx_yank;6645184][quote=CrisPDuk;6644207]You should have taken your own advice there on the homework wrx
If you had you'd have known that Les is a nuclear bomber pilot. formerly of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force
i dont care, a monkey has been to space, your point....
if your pilots are gods gift to aviation, then why do we OWN your asses at red flag every year?
And right up until then you were doing so well, too...
We kicked your ***** using 25 year old Buccaneers, we trounced you with underpowered Tornados and we (well, Les probably) utterly destroyed you with Vulcans.
You've got some great kit and you've got some great pilots. But your training and discipline, generally, is lacking. That's all. The video was a good example - it looked to me as though Popov36 was a capable pilot who handled his aircraft very well. But when it came to deploying it as a fighting machine his ability seemed to be sorely wanting. Surely as a 'hawk driver that's got to be some major concern to you, too?
SB
If you had you'd have known that Les is a nuclear bomber pilot. formerly of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force
i dont care, a monkey has been to space, your point....
if your pilots are gods gift to aviation, then why do we OWN your asses at red flag every year?
We kicked your ***** using 25 year old Buccaneers, we trounced you with underpowered Tornados and we (well, Les probably) utterly destroyed you with Vulcans.
You've got some great kit and you've got some great pilots. But your training and discipline, generally, is lacking. That's all. The video was a good example - it looked to me as though Popov36 was a capable pilot who handled his aircraft very well. But when it came to deploying it as a fighting machine his ability seemed to be sorely wanting. Surely as a 'hawk driver that's got to be some major concern to you, too?
SB
10 February 2007, 06:16 PM
#195
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[QUOTE=Sbradley;6645234][quote=wrx_yank;6645184]
no, not really, he isnt SANDY qualified..... 
if you get that joke, then i applaude you.
You should have taken your own advice there on the homework wrx
If you had you'd have known that Les is a nuclear bomber pilot. formerly of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force
And right up until then you were doing so well, too...
We kicked your ***** using 25 year old Buccaneers, we trounced you with underpowered Tornados and we (well, Les probably) utterly destroyed you with Vulcans.
You've got some great kit and you've got some great pilots. But your training and discipline, generally, is lacking. That's all. The video was a good example - it looked to me as though Popov36 was a capable pilot who handled his aircraft very well. But when it came to deploying it as a fighting machine his ability seemed to be sorely wanting. Surely as a 'hawk driver that's got to be some major concern to you, too?
SB
If you had you'd have known that Les is a nuclear bomber pilot. formerly of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force
And right up until then you were doing so well, too...
We kicked your ***** using 25 year old Buccaneers, we trounced you with underpowered Tornados and we (well, Les probably) utterly destroyed you with Vulcans.
You've got some great kit and you've got some great pilots. But your training and discipline, generally, is lacking. That's all. The video was a good example - it looked to me as though Popov36 was a capable pilot who handled his aircraft very well. But when it came to deploying it as a fighting machine his ability seemed to be sorely wanting. Surely as a 'hawk driver that's got to be some major concern to you, too?
SB
if you get that joke, then i applaude you.
10 February 2007, 06:21 PM
#196
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so you decide... im done trying to hold an intelligent conversation with you bandwagon jumping scapegoaters.
every time you lose an arguement, you come up with some slick line like "england is better than USA... uhhhh you suck, we rule" ( not your exact words, but that is the jist) good comeback children.... have a nice day.
every time you lose an arguement, you come up with some slick line like "england is better than USA... uhhhh you suck, we rule" ( not your exact words, but that is the jist) good comeback children.... have a nice day.
SB
10 February 2007, 06:23 PM
#197
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WRX yank
Fukk of home. size for size we would wipe the smile right off your faces.
last year we (My friends and mine company) employed over 15 new guys. Not once did we ever think about using a Yank. They ffkkn talk too much and "get off" on the "action" . we prefer to get the job done without all the FFKKNN "High Fives.
Fukk of home. size for size we would wipe the smile right off your faces.
last year we (My friends and mine company) employed over 15 new guys. Not once did we ever think about using a Yank. They ffkkn talk too much and "get off" on the "action" . we prefer to get the job done without all the FFKKNN "High Fives.
Last edited by Seamaster; 10 February 2007 at 06:26 PM.
10 February 2007, 06:24 PM
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[quote=wrx_yank;6645184][quote=CrisPDuk;6644207]You should have taken your own advice there on the homework wrx
If you had you'd have known that Les is a nuclear bomber pilot. formerly of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force
i dont care, a monkey has been to space, your point....
if your pilots are gods gift to aviation, then why do we OWN your asses at red flag every year?
Hmm interesting point about red flag, the first week when we play red air we are only allowed to use swear words and the occasional obscene gesture. The next 2 weeks we are allowed to start using the whole range of weaponary, including jtids however we aren't allowed to use an awacs. Now lets look at the range of weaponary blue air can use. Hmmm that would be a GR4 bomber package from either the luftwafe or the RAF with top cover provided by the F15's and 16's. AWACS online, etc. The numbers for blue air are overwhelming as they have to win. After all if red air wins then there is something seriously wrong.
As for being god gift to flying i'm sure Leslie will back me up in stating that Red Flag has been witness to the god gift of flying when the Buccaneers went there, well until they were banned for flying at 50-100ft over the range and in one case leaving wing tip votex marks on the desert floor as they turned.
Anyway i have met some lovely americans over the years In GW2, 2001 Red Flag, 2007 Jan Red Flag, Moutain Home 2005, however you seem to a perfect ****. I note that you fly helicopters, to paraphrase a mate of mine who started getting some bollox from a jockey, "oi mate the fact i fix helicopters is no reflection on my ability, the fact that you fly them is" I'm sure you'll work this one out.
If you had you'd have known that Les is a nuclear bomber pilot. formerly of Her Majesty's Royal Air Force
i dont care, a monkey has been to space, your point....
if your pilots are gods gift to aviation, then why do we OWN your asses at red flag every year?
As for being god gift to flying i'm sure Leslie will back me up in stating that Red Flag has been witness to the god gift of flying when the Buccaneers went there, well until they were banned for flying at 50-100ft over the range and in one case leaving wing tip votex marks on the desert floor as they turned.
Anyway i have met some lovely americans over the years In GW2, 2001 Red Flag, 2007 Jan Red Flag, Moutain Home 2005, however you seem to a perfect ****. I note that you fly helicopters, to paraphrase a mate of mine who started getting some bollox from a jockey, "oi mate the fact i fix helicopters is no reflection on my ability, the fact that you fly them is" I'm sure you'll work this one out.
10 February 2007, 06:25 PM
#199
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SANDY? I must be getting old - unless you're talking about A1 Skyraiders, that is?
SB
PS Bloody sexy aeroplane from when men were men and aeroplanes had fcukig great engines...
SB
PS Bloody sexy aeroplane from when men were men and aeroplanes had fcukig great engines...
10 February 2007, 06:26 PM
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Also my dear old Dad was in Vietnam along with many UK guys. As he said "the Yanks couldnt find a steak in texas" he had very very little respect for what the Americans troops got up to . He told me about the "Pleasure trips" that troops would take Viet girls on. No wonder a few Uk guys got sent home for shooting some of your lot .
10 February 2007, 06:28 PM
#201
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SB (7000 hours, rotary...)
Last edited by Sbradley; 10 February 2007 at 06:31 PM.
10 February 2007, 06:32 PM
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good point bradly, but im not defending the pilots.... im defending the 75% of out military that arent tools!
it just seems that 25% are always put in important positions
i can think of 1 very important position that you have to "run for " and get "elected" to.
i CHOSE helicopters, because fighter pilots are arrogant ********., bombers are Ok, but i dont like to fly that high, transport is boring and tankers, well, i just dont like flying around that big of a bomb.
it just seems that 25% are always put in important positions
i can think of 1 very important position that you have to "run for " and get "elected" to.
i CHOSE helicopters, because fighter pilots are arrogant ********., bombers are Ok, but i dont like to fly that high, transport is boring and tankers, well, i just dont like flying around that big of a bomb.
10 February 2007, 06:40 PM
#205
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hmmm another ignorant rambling from seamaster-bator
last time i checked your country has lynxs, ****-hooks, pumas, apaches and cougers....
eat a fat dick you dumb ***
and since its "rotary" he could have logged 7000 hours in an RX-7 for all i know..... ****.
last time i checked your country has lynxs, ****-hooks, pumas, apaches and cougers....
eat a fat dick you dumb ***
and since its "rotary" he could have logged 7000 hours in an RX-7 for all i know..... ****.
Last edited by wrx_yank; 10 February 2007 at 06:43 PM. Reason: seamasterbator is a dunce
10 February 2007, 06:43 PM
#206
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In the mob I started in the Gazelle, then Wessex 5, Sea King 4, back to the Wessex flying SAR, and finished up on Lynx. Did an exchange at NAS Mirimar on the S60, again as SAR.
Then as a civilian consultant on systems integration for Lynx, cockpit systems on the Rooivalk, westernisation and integration programs on Hind E and F, basic famil on Hip as it's the same airframe as Hind and evaluation on the Ka-50 Hokum, which gave me 300 odd hours on the best combat chopper anywhere after learning to fly a counter-rotating rotor on the Ka-32. Plus odds and sods on Kiowas, Defenders and so on...
SB
Then as a civilian consultant on systems integration for Lynx, cockpit systems on the Rooivalk, westernisation and integration programs on Hind E and F, basic famil on Hip as it's the same airframe as Hind and evaluation on the Ka-50 Hokum, which gave me 300 odd hours on the best combat chopper anywhere after learning to fly a counter-rotating rotor on the Ka-32. Plus odds and sods on Kiowas, Defenders and so on...
SB
Last edited by Sbradley; 10 February 2007 at 06:46 PM.
10 February 2007, 06:43 PM
#207
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10 February 2007, 06:45 PM
#208
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I forgot to add the few months I rode a Norton rotary bike. Not sure how many hours were spent fixing it instead of riding, though...
SB
10 February 2007, 06:45 PM
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they did the right thing.... popped a smoke.
10 February 2007, 06:48 PM
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In the mob I started in the Gazelle, then Wessex 5, Sea King 4, back to the Wessex flying SAR, and finished up on Lynx. Did an exchange at NAS Mirimar on the S60, again as SAR.
Then as a civilian consultant on systems integration for Lynx, cockpit systems on the Rooivalk, westernisation and integration programs on Hind E and F, basic famil on Hip as it's the same airframe as Hind and evaluation on the Ka-50 Hokum, which gave me 300 odd hours on the best combat chopper anywhere after learning to fly a counter-rotating rotor on the Ka-32. Plus odds and sods on Kiowas, Defenders and so on...
SB
Then as a civilian consultant on systems integration for Lynx, cockpit systems on the Rooivalk, westernisation and integration programs on Hind E and F, basic famil on Hip as it's the same airframe as Hind and evaluation on the Ka-50 Hokum, which gave me 300 odd hours on the best combat chopper anywhere after learning to fly a counter-rotating rotor on the Ka-32. Plus odds and sods on Kiowas, Defenders and so on...
SB
your career is both vast and distinguished.
come down to lakenheath some time and ill get you on base and show you our HH-60G's
