Sbradley

Fort Rucker, Alabama ("Y'all aint from round here...but you sure does talk perdy") and Nellis AFB, Nevada. So yes, in their own back yard. Some lovely flying country around there

In fairness to the Apache guys, we had two aircraft and one of them was flown by the original test pilot who had about three grillion hours on type and could fly it asleep...plus we had access to all the published data on the Apache while there really wasn't very much on the Ka-50 so they didn't know what to expect. Plus the Ka-50 was built to kill helicopters, with an anti-armour capability as a secondary role, while the Apache, um, wasn't.

SB

andythejock01wrx

LOL

Leslie

Thanks for that answer about the contra rotaters Simon, I was wondering just how they could change the effective torque from each rotor. Like the idea of the ease of hovering etc.

I was never able to fly rotaries officially but I did a tour some time ago doing experimental flying on airborne radar etc and they taught me how to fly the two choppers we had, A Whirlwind with an Alvis Leonides engine and a Wessex with one engine-so you will know that they were originals! The Wessex used to keep getting split blades which all added to the excitement I kept trying to get them to send me off on the official course but no luck. I just about got to solo standard in the end.

My most impressive memory was being helicoptored back from the Nevada desert after a short survival course by a bloke who insisted on following every bend in this dried up river bed at about 20 feet or so. He was climbing for the Jacob's cacti at times It was the sound from the blades which was occupying my mind more than anything.

Les

CrisPDuk

IIRC Simon the Ka-50 was built to kill Apaches, not just any old helicopter I suppose form an Apache pilot's point of view it's nice to be popular

There was a discovery channel documentary on over here at the end of last year about the building of a new cable car in Hong Kong, they were using a Heavy Lift Kamov to move the steel towers into place.
At several points the Swiss pilot was gesticulating out of the window with his collective hand to the crews rigging the loads I bet you can't do that with a Sikorsky

I'm guessing UH-1 for the low flying then Les If Hollywood are to be believed, it's the only chopper the US Army's ever had Despite the fact they haven't owned any for over 10 years

Leslie

Yes it was a few years ago

Les

wrx_yank

that was my old squadron... 66 RQS ,wanna come fly with me now from lakenheath..... ?

Leslie

I quite enjoyed the performance from a fellow "hooligan" wrx, however I could have offered you the same invitation a while ago and you might have found that a bit of a thrill as well

Les

wrx_yank

true!!!!! how many can you fit in a vulcan?

Leslie

The crew of 5 + another two, one could stand on the ladder between the pilots and get a good view. You would have loved it for an air display.


Les

CrisPDuk

Go on then Les, give him the full picture, answer the question he didn't ask

How many can actually get out of a Vulcan in the event of an emergency


The answer wrx tells you all you need to know about the esteem in which the aircrews were held by the RAF's brass, and the Ministry of Supply

Leslie

Theoretically all can get out but it has to be regarded in a practical manner. The two pilots each have an ejection seat while the two navigators and the air electronics officer had to slide out of the door in the bottom of the fuselage. This would be alright as long as it is not a sudden abandonment at low level. There have been instances of full crew survival, one in particular was a predetermined evacuation after a serious engine disintegration and eventual loss of control. The resultant crash left one of the engines nearly 60 feet subsurface! The other possible problem was if the undercarriage was down and the nosewheel was right behind the open door. You had to slide down and clamber around the nosewheel before falling free of the aircraft. The abandonment drills were practised very regularly. You have to remember that the Vulcan was originally designed as a high level bomber of course. The fact that it was operated at very low level speaks volumes for the aircraft's capabilities

It was considered that fitting ejection seats for all the crew was not viable. The pilot's seats were not rocket seats and the minimum height for their use was not that low anyway. Modern seats can save you from ground level.

I have to say however that the Vulcan was one of the aircraft that I always felt pretty safe in.

Les

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Is that a good thing in all circumstances?

I'm reminded of the a pre-flight briefing in an F15 for a certain Jeremy Clarkson. The pilot was explaining that in the event of an emergency requiring them to "leave the aircraft" he would call: "eject, eject, eject"

Jeremy responded:"Do I have to wait till the third repetition?"

"You know, you probably won't have to" said the pilot

"Good, cause if you mention any word beginning with 'E' I'm off" retorted Jeremy!

Picture the scene:

Pilot: "Ok, Jeremy we're going to start the engines....... Jeremy...............Jeremy????

Gawd dang it!!!!

Sbradley

P1 briefing in a Hunter T8 to P2 (me on a jolly).

"In the event that we need to get put I will say "Eject Eject Eject." You should leave on the first "Eject" because if you wait until the third, the next thing you see will be my ankles going past..."

Ironically, the only time I've used an ejection seat, also in a Hunter T8, although I was still P2 I initiated the ejection and the other guy went first (multiple birdstrike at very low level)

SB

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Typical!!

You wait ages for one bird and then 3 come along all at once!!!!

Glad you and the other chap got out ok.

BTW How do you explain the loss of a multi million dollar jet to the CO??

You: "We'll the good news is, you're going to save a shed load on you annual fuel bill..... Roast Partridge??"

Ns04

Sbradley

Happily, though I had the stick I hadn't signed the chit...so it went on the other guy's mess bill

No, there's an enquiry and as long as you're found not to have really naused it up then everyone is usually quite cool about it. Officially.

Unofficially, of course, you get the **** taken out of you for, oh, about 5 years...

SB

wrx_yank

bet you had a few urine tests after that one.


<---- been in my share of mishaps.

andythejock01wrx

So which Air Force was SB flying for when he flew the Ka-50 ?

CrisPDuk

PMSL

Hawker Hunter = Multi-million Dollar Jet

If the MoS spent more than a grand a piece on them, someone was taking the p!ss

CrisPDuk

Either the Khazakstan Air Force, or it's subsidiary, Borat Air, probably

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Well, you get into a jet that cost a few thousand quid, what do you expect

Ok, just say to the CO:

"Well, it's cheaper than taking it to then scrap dealers!!"

Leslie

Did not know you had a Martin Baker let down Simon, that must have been a bit traumatic. I had a ride in the twin seat Hunter from Tengah, that was the most precise aircraft I ever flew. We did some air to ground at China Rock and you put the pipper on the target and it just stayed there-no yawing about etc. We had a bit of air to air combat with the Squadron JP (most junior pilot) and he was well and truly splashed. He was going to get it in the neck for that. I took the Hunter QWI up in the Vulcan in return and once he got his hands on the controls and found out what the handling was like, it was all I could do to get it back off him! It was the same with the Lightning QWI as well. They could not stop talking about the old Iron Triangle afterwards. Happy memories!

Les

Sbradley

I wasn't - I was a civilian consultant working for (depending almost on which day of the week it was) Kamov, the US DoD and the MOD...

We were actually evaluating the aircraft for consideration under ASR432 - the requirement which ended up with our buying Longbow.

Fair question though

SB

Sbradley

It wasn't really that traumatic at the time - certainly less so than staying on board would have been, anyway

The Hunter was a lovely aircraft to fly, though. Beautifully accurate and delicate handling, though obviously crippled in my eyes by a strange design omission resulting in an inability to hover or go backwards... ever had a chance to do any proper ACM in it as if the opportunity presented itself the first thing I always heard was "I have control" as P1 took it back for a play

I do remember "shooting down" a Jaguar in a Jet Provost, though - that was funny and earned us a barrel of beer from his squadron - and also losing very badly to an A10 because the very senior pilot wouldn't listen to me when I pointed out that they always fly in pairs... They're bloody intimidating whe the rear view mirror is full of 'em. And they turn tighter than a JP as well.

SB

wrx_yank

yea the A10 is super maneuverable at low speeds, thanks to the wide wings.... alot of people think its ugly but i think it is gorgeous.

CrisPDuk

I bet that 30mm does a pretty good job of reducing a plane's ability to stay airborne too

I didn't think they were used in Air Combat practice though

Leslie

Yes Simon, I can understand the point about not hanging about after the birdstrike. I had a few of those of course, fact of life at low level. I had one real frightener in the centre of the windscreen on a Canberra B(I)8 which smashed the front half but luckily for me did not come through the second layer. It was a German eagle of some kind. Had a seagull take out one Vulcan engine once but no real problem there.

Just as well you did not bring the Hunter to the hover though

I would like to have a go in an A10, very good aircraft for the job and as you say the handling is very impressive.

Not all that surprised you splashed the Jaguar. They used to take a couple of counties to turn a corner! I had a tail mounted camera on a B(I)8 once to take a few publicity photos of the Jaguars when they first arrived in Germany. They were following me at low level in battle formation. When I did a normal turn they asked me to reduce to 30 degrees of bank because they could not stay with me! They were very sensitive about it and we and the Phantom squadrons were expressly forbidden to take the p*ss out of them. Bet the beer tasted good

I would not want to argue with that cannon on the front of an A10, mind bending and I doubt if any armour can resist that one.

Les

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

I seem to remember a conversation with an aviation buff who claimed that such is the recoil of that gun it slows the plane down appreciably even in short bursts and that if ammunition depletion were not a factor, it could in -theory- slow the airplane to a stop. He referred to it as a "huge gun that happened to have a aircraft attached to it"!!

BTW Audilover will, no doubt, be on here in a moment to claim that a 9mm is -in point of fact- more powerful.

Ns04

Moley

iTrader: (9)

Must say this thread has turned into one of my favourite ones on here!!!

Great hearing about your flying experiences.

Unfortunately my flying history (other than passenger in an Airbus/Boeing) is just the theory side (2 years of Aviation Studies). My lecturers were all ex-RAF, and used to amuse us all with their stories. FWIW our main lecturer had to eject twice, both Gloucester Meteor's if i remember correctly

andythejock01wrx

So Simon, the Longbow was chosen over the Ka50 because, although the Ka50 was better air to air, the Longbow was better in a close air support role ?

Sbradley

No, the Longbow was chosen because we wanted to be better friends with Uncle Sam. He's our 'special' uncle, you know...

The Ka50 was the equal for anti armour, better for air to air and better for general CAS operations. It was more battlefield survivable, cost $12M a unit less than the Apache and was offered with full offsets. In other words, we could have licenced it, kitted it out with Rolls Royce engines and GEC cockpit and sold it as a Westland Ka50 for a humungous profit. But ASR (Air Staff Requirement) 432 was actually specifically modified after the first round of evaluation to say that the aircraft had to be a two seater. I've yet to find anyone on the military side of the evaluation who felt that to be the case. But hey ho - since when has value for money and the best product been relevant in military procurement? TSR2/Blue Steel/F-111, anyone?

SB