///\oo/\\\

Indeed.

And in MY opinion, Schumacher turns in, sees Hill, corrects, and then thinks, **** it, i'm going to let him hit me 'cos I've lost otherwise.

History evidences that thought process was not alien to Schumacher.

He's a professional driver - of course he knew his car was damaged - why risk the collision otherwise? Its not like he didn't know Hill was there...

And in that case, he should not have attempted to drive the racing line.

sbk1972

Its hard ot tell who is in the wrong, as both are wearing helmets. By removing the helmets, the driver with the longest hair, would be in the wrong.

Therefore, Hill is wrong and a ponce.

Here to help.

SBK

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

That I would agree with, I think the directional changes just before he turns in are him realising that the front wheels aren't pointing quite the same way and hence by the time he turns in he must have known his car was sick although you could argue the turn in was instinctive (bit of an in joke there if you know a bit about Jerez three years later).

Anyway as good a discussion as this is I doubt we are going to change our opinions so let's agree to differ, all's fun in love and F1

Plus it's time to go home

RoShamBo

iTrader: (1)

So he won, often by genius and the odd time by "other means" that still makes him a winner. Winners always find ways to win, losers moan about those winners & their ways.
In time Hill will be remembered as that chap that won the Drivers title once and Button will be remembered as that guy who won a couple of races from 698 starts. Shuey will be remembered as that driver who won the most races, most pole positions, most world championships, most fastest laps, most points, most wins in a season.
So what if he "helped himself" to a couple of titles, more should do it, might make the sport a little more interesting.

R.

///\oo/\\\

Agreed

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Whilst having the utmost respect for the late Graham Hill he did once say that you always found a better class of person at the back of the grid.

Irvine who was average at best has gone on record as saying Schumacher was even better than Senna, and would have forced him into retirement if he hadn't tragically died.

After moving from Williams Damon Hill's fall from grace was rapid. He was consistently outgunned by his then team mate HH Frentzen.

Leslie

Firstly, can you tell us why Germans are known as "Krauts"? Please tell us why it should be so insulting as you infer, more so in fact than Brits being known as "Limeys" or "Kippers".

I used to work with Germans for some 6 years and we always called each other Krauts and Limeys etc. It was all in good fun and we all enjoyed taking the p*ss out of each other a la "'Allo 'Allo" which we all enjoyed as well. It looks as though you were looking for an excuse to criticise!

I stand by the rest of the content of my earlier post.

Les

Brendan Hughes

Sure, it's because one of their favourite dishes is sauerkraut.

Can you tell me why black people are referred to as *******? Does that make it OK?

Jerome

I've never been offended at being called variously a limey, (whinging) pom, ros bif etc. Kraut is totally different to the n word.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

It comes from the Latin for black - Niger.

However, as a Roast Beef, do you feel black people being referred to as "curried goats" for example is equally or less offensive than ******

Brendan Hughes

Then I apologise. I was looking to prove you as a hypocrite. Someone who comes out with a pompous statement about another's character, while in the same post using a common ethnic slur, should perhaps examine their own character first.

I don't give a damn about the two things separately, but put together, they are unpleasant.

Jerome

As I've never heard of "curried goats" being used to describe black people, I'm not sure how derogatory it is. Still, it doesn't seem to be in the same league as ******.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Nor have I, but my point is being refered to by a native dish is on a different level to that of ****** to a black man.

But in any case the context in which a particular word is implied, is key to its offensiveness.

Anyway, Schumacher will not be known as a racing gent, thats for sure

InvisibleMan

i always remember the race where it pi$$ed down so much you couldnt see the cars. Schui won while stuck in 5th for half the race. I think he was the only one that didnt whinge on about safety after that race.

TelBoy

Thank God somebody else sees it. I'll be accused of trolling again now, you wait and see.

sbk1972

All this said and done Damon Hill is a long hair'ed ponce.

:-)

SBK

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

He said the p word! Infract him now

Jerome

Is this the same "ponce" that was driving so spiritedly around a test track in a Merc SL, that the rollover hoop came up and also caused the passenger (who at least looked like a hard man) to be sick?

The fact that he managed to win a world championship whilst racing against Schumacher, is worthy of respect in my book, even if he does have a dodgy haircut.

rallying1

oh sorry I lost the will to live for a moment, what was the question?

Dracoro

I think I can definitely draw the right conclusion from the 1994 hill/schumacher footage posted here earlier. This is that Formula one was so much better to watch (well listen to) with Murray Walker than the dull crap we have had over the last 2/3 years. Where's the next great commentator? It's NOT James Allen, that's for sure.

Leslie

In the first place, I deny that there was anything pompous about my original post, it was a statement of facts which had occurred. The main object was of course to defend Damon Hill who well deserved the success that he achieved. How can that be pompous I wonder? I would not apologise for supporting his efforts.

Secondly it is quite wrong to say that "Kraut" was meant as an ethnic slur. The Germans I knew, who were incidentally good friends, never saw it like that. They gave as good as they got as I explained and it was all taken in good part both ways. They thought the expression was as amusing as we regarded the name "Kipper"

I think your imagination let you down a bit there!

Les

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Les, are you therefore saying that when you used the term 'Kraut Wunderkind' you did not mean it to be in any way derogatory?

A simple yes or no will suffice

Brendan Hughes

Right, so when you were referring to the Kraut Wunderkind, it was all a good bit of jolly fun.

Oh dear Les, you sound more and more like Tony Blair.

Kraut - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HankScorpio

I've been following this thread with interest and can now offer full and final judgement on Hill's world championship win - you could have put a monkey in that williams and it would have won the championship. Hill was in the right car at the right time, nothing else. Mediocre at best.

Drunken Bungle Whore

Yes Senna ran Prost off at the first bend in a premediated action - but he admitted it. He even told some people he was going to do it beforehand. Schui on the other hand tried to lie, bluff and weasel his way out of everything - if you're going to take the p1ss, at least be straight about it! As I've said before - Schui is a truly great, but deeply flawed driver.

As great stories in F1 go - I'm always particularly fond of the incident where Senna pinned Irvine against the wall of his pit after the race in Suzuka where Irvine (who knew the circuit incredibly well) had, in his very first F1 race, had the ***** to unlap himself from Senna on the track!

You just don't get those stories these days. Now, the team would complain to the FIA and there'd be an inquest, blah, blah, blah.

As I said before, no passion nowadays - from either the drivers or commentaters. Fangio & Moss, Clarke & Hawthorne, Hunt & Lauda, Senna & Prost. Who is there now?

Dracoro

So one driver, in the heat of the moment may have rammed someone off the track and is bad yet another who plans the whole thing before the race is ok? That's like saying (in relative terms) that manslaughter is worse than murder.

I think the anti-schumacher thing is a nationalistic thing largely due to the Damon hill incident, I believe many French view Senna in the same way for whacking Prost of the track too. Outside of the UK, people don't hate Schumacher and Ferrari (you only have to see how many red ferrari dressed people completely dominate the stands at F1 races).

I'm not Schumachers biggest fan, nor Ferrari's but I haven't lost all rationality like many people. Sure he's made **** ups and pushed boundaries (and gone past them). Someone mentioned football and diving/leaving trailing leg, Giggs free kick last night, Lineker knocking ball out of keepers hand etc. All seems OK if they are playing for your team but wo-betide them if the opposition do the same. Seems the same with the whole Schumacher thing.

Schumacher is the most successful F1 driver of all time, he is the one of, if not the best. When people compare the best ever (which will never be agreed as they raced in different eras) they will consider Schumacher, Senna, Fangio, Moss (depite never winning a c'ship), Prost, Stewart. The likes of Damon Hill will never be in these lists, he is a good F1 driver but can't say their name in the same breath of those above I mentioned.

There's always controversy over drivers and their antics (on and off the track), Schumacher is merely been the one of the last 15 years, Senna/Prost before that and so on. History WILL seem Schuey as a great F1 driver (as I say above, the best ever is, and always will be, under debate and ultimately impossible to answer).

///\oo/\\\

The Prost/Senna thing was very different though. That was a grudge match between the two top drivers of the day.

And in any event, was the score of taking each other off not 1:1 with Senna/Prost?

Schumacher, on the other hand, was not fussy about who he crashed into, and was seen by many as willing to cheat simply to further his own aims.

I doubt Senna would have parked up, blocking the track, to secure pole.

There is a big difference in my book, and yes, I watched the whole Senna Prost era the first time round.

Dracoro

Granted, however the big picture is that in the vast majority of races, he was simply the fastest and won nearly all of them fair and square. I won't deny he was cheeky and maybe cheated from time to time, however the fact is he is the best F1 driver of the last 15 years, and of all time if statistics are used to ascertain rankings. Take away the races he supposedly cheated and he would still be far and away the top driver of his time.

Leslie

No-simply!

Les