Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Pretty rare though aren't they? Hardly any in the UK.

TX.

Monkeybone

Didn't realised they used 55 profile, that'll be why they cost more

Would have thought they would have used a lower profile, 50 or even 45 on them.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

Mine did not suffer torque steer, did not have a problem with that

TX.

Mike123

I've seen it mentioned in a few different articles that the steering was "de-sensitised" to lessen the sensation of torque steer

94impreza

Isn't Grip the biggest issue when discussing handling?. IE when people say "It handles like its on rails" i take it they mean the chances of it sliding mid-corner are minimal. Brakes are nothing without grip, weight distribution, suspension, offset, rake and trail are all aimed at providing more grip, thus making the overall "handling" better.
For example manufacturers can spend millions on research/design but if you then put a cheapo set of tyres on them you will affect the grip, thus affecting the "handling".

Roojai

I think a lot of people think that but handling is more to do with how the car behaves once grip is broken.

My old MR2 had loads of grip but when I pushed it beyond the limits the back end would swing around uncontrollably, so its handling was poor.

The scooby often understeers, so the handling can be boring (although safe) but the grip is very high.

The ITR is very well balanced and it is possible to control how much oversteer you want - thus the handling is very good.

I think in practice you will only ever push a scooby or an ITR and understand its true handling character by taking it to a track.

94impreza

I see what your saying. If your MR2 had more grip though it wouldn't lose the back end, and would therefore handle better?. If it had more grip it'd brake better etc etc etc.
Obviously other elements are important when it comes to handling, but grip has to be the most important.

Mike123

More of a distinction used to be made in older road tests between roadholding (grip) and handling to the extent that they were mentioned under separate headings. Roojai is right in his summation of the two basically.

A car can have loads of grip but not be a great handler. This point was made in the "Car" magazine Handling test in 97 with regard to the Integra. The 2.8 Z3 BMW was as fast as the Integra round the track but the tester's said it did this basically through sheer grip and there wasn't much option to be able to adjust the Z3's line in a corner near the limit whereas the Honda was much more friendly at the limit.

94impreza

I'm not sure if i'm reading it right, are you saying the itr was on a par with the Z3 because "... there wasn't much option to be able to adjust the Z3's line in a corner " Is the Z3 rwd ?
The above would suggest the Z3 was unable to adjust because it would lose grip, therefore affecting the over-all handling.

Obviously awful suspension or general setup can make even the grippiest of cars handle, but my point is that grip is the first and foremost factor when considering handling.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Wrong. The first thing to consider when trying to understand 'handling', is balance.

94impreza

As in weight distribution ?

If you test drove a car on decent tyres, give it a bit of whelly in a corner and it struggles to find grip your overall opinion would be that it doesn't "handle" well. As an after-thought you may consider the suspension setup, weight distribution etc but you'd walk away thinking it struggled for grip.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Thats one part. Then you have; body rigidity, suspension and damping rates, power delivery... the list goes on. And all this has to be considered before putting a set of boots on the car. Tyres are the very last thing you decide upon, after all of the above has been considered.

94impreza

There are many different elements to handling as you say, suspension, chassis, power delivery. All those factors are designed to aid in grip as well as other uses. Brakes for example without grip are useless.
For example a 4wd distributes its power through 4 wheels whatever the ratio front to back, therefore has a bigger tyre footprint and is less likely to lose grip under acceleration than a similar powered car, with similar sized tyres thats either fwd or rwd.

People mistake handling for grip because say 80% of how a car handles is down to how it grips to the road. If you drove your ITR this morning and something seemed wrong with the handling the first thing you'd probably do is check your tyres/pressures/balance, then maybe your suspension etc.

I'm not saying tyre choice is the biggest element of handling, but grip.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Bigger footprint? If a 2wd car has the same size tyres as the 4wd car, the 'foot-print' will be the same.
4WD also adds extra weight....not good for grip.
The AWD system on the impreza, only works under acceleration, so why do you think it will have better braking ability than a 2wd? With that logic, all race car's would be 4wd.

Having AWD is definitely an advantage on poor or wet surfaces. On a dry road or track, AWD doesn't hold that same advantage and is very unforgiving to the average driver.

94impreza

Ermmm have a think about that for a minute. Might not be good for handling but its definately better for grip. 300BHP car weighing 1000kg would be more likely to spin than a 1500kg with the same power.

Not sure who your talking to here but i've not said this at any point.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

If that happened, then I would conclude that it had poor 'traction', which is not the same as handling. When I did a karting session in the wet, over christmas, the wheels would spin very very easily. That certainly didn't mean that it had poor handling. Infact, it was incredible easy to drift the kart from corner to corner. And that was with slick tyres, rwd and rw braking!

You did say that 'if a car has better grip then it will brake better.'
This is true, but the grip is from the tyres, not the 4wd system as it isn't used under braking.

I just want to point out that i'm not trying to argue, i'm just questioning some of your theories!

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

[QUOTE=94impreza;6718760]Ermmm have a think about that for a minute. Might not be good for handling but its definately better for grip. 300BHP car weighing 1000kg would be more likely to spin than a 1500kg with the same power.

It may grip very well, but it will be a hell of a lot slower, which, I think was your original point.....that 4wd is faster!

94impreza

I'm not trying to say that at all. I'm saying people mistake handling for grip because grip is the biggest factor when considering the handling of a car. It has nothing to do with ITR's or Scoobs.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

So a car with more grip, has better handling?

94impreza

Not necassarily, again thats not what i am saying.
If john and dave were going round a corner and john's car gripped more than dave's its more likely john would be able to corner faster. Most people would then say as a general comment "John's car handles better".
The original question was "Why do people mistake handling for grip".

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

What about if dave could enter the corner at a higher speed, proceeded to aim for the apex and then the back let go so quick he was unable to catch it and ended up in the hedge! John on the other hand was able to drift around the corner at a slower speed but under complete control!

Who had more grip = possibly dave
Who's handled better = most definitely john

94impreza

What if Dave recently bought a different marque and then posted twice in a month on a forum not dedicated to his marque how great his new car was?, most people would probably think he was trying to prove something.
If Dave constantly went on about how 2wd wasn't inferior to 4wd or how braking was important or balance you might assume he made a mistake and is over-compensating by pretending his new car is actually good. I mean why would Dave make such a big effort to point out the advantages of his new marque and play down the disadvantages?.
My advice for Dave would be the first step of solving a problem is admitting you've made a mistake, the second would be to get a copy of autotrader and stop living in denial .

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

This has got nothing to do with the s&dding integra. Believe it or not, this IS the 'other marques' section. It was my account of the integra after the first weeks ownership, thats all.
I have never said that the impreza/integra is better/worse than the other. They are both great cars in very different ways. You seem to have no idea about how a car actually works (engine braking is key for good performance, 4wd means better braking... )
Anyone would think that you believe the impreza to be better than any other car!
I started this thread yes, and you decided to post, not the other way around. Are you stalking me?

94impreza

Again the Heroin in your blood stream is making you quote things i haven't said. On this thread anyway.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

So now you're calling me a heroin addict? FFS!
Go and troll somewhere else.

94impreza

Its not my fault you keep quoting things i haven't said. I merely assumed that your hallucinating because of some kind of addiction. I await the "1 month driving an ITR" thread and will read with anticipation how fantastic your new car is.
Usually if people bleat on and on uninvited about how great something is you'll find that they are insecure.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

I never said that the integra is better than the impreza, but you seem to assume I did.
I find it's generally those who post on other peoples threads only to create conflict, who have the inferiority complex!

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

And again, it is you that has ruined a perfectly good thread that many other users seemed to have found interesting.
Why not start up your own thread about why engine braking is so important, 4wd gives a greater foot-print and how 4wd cars handle better than rwd and 2wd cars.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

94impreza, you are like a dog with a bone. This is the 'Other Marques' section, Chris is posting about another marque. If you don't like it why keep posting? Methinks it is you who have the problem accepting that there is more to the motoring world than your bargain basement Japanese 4WD saloon. Just a thought.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)