brickboy

Also sceptical about the motives for this.

UK goverments of ANY political persuasion know that motorists are easy meat, despite the fact that CO2 from cars is only a small part of the total industrial output.

Given the way the wind's blowing at the moment, I bet that neither main political party will actually cut either fuel or road taxes in the near future.

bugeyeandy

TelBoy, Your 2nd sentence sums up most peoples fears.

I live in W.London and still find it hard to use public transport without it either costing more than my car or taking 4 or 5 times longer for the same journey.
I cycle to work and even that has its risks , I feel the carrot should be used more than the stick but unfortunately that costs money and doesn't make money so the government isn't interested.

ricardo

Petrol is burnt, producing water vapour and CO2 (plus small amounts of other stuff). So grammes of CO2 per km is directly related to fuel used per mile, and inversely to miles per gallon.

///\oo/\\\

Absolutely Tel, using less resources can only be a good thing.

But high road tax won't make the slightest difference to the use of resource.

We are about to relocate to the Highlands. I'm chopping in the low co2 car (£135 tax per annum) for a high Co2 4x4.

I'll have snow, mud and rutted tracks to contend with on a regular basis, so my choice is justifiable.

I'll do less miles a year and I'll average much the same fuel consumption because I'll spend less time sitting in traffic. I'll use less fuel, and yet I'll have to pay more (and possibly a lot more) in road tax. The additional co2 the 4x4 will emit every mile will be more than set off by the fact there is more greenery converting that co2 back to oxygen.

Road tax is not, and never has been, about the environment.

Evo mag did a thing a short while back which concluded that if everyone in the UK drove big SUVs, the total additional co2 output for the uk would be something like 8%.

And that could be addressed, literally, by planting trees. Lots of trees, yes, but a simple act.

The only thing that will work is to tax fuel accordingly. Make the resource more expensive, and less of it will be used.

Structure that tax carefully to avoid persecuting those industries and individuals that need it - Road Haulage, those ligitimately disabled, taxi and transport operators. Give them vouchers.

Bring in congestion charging, but structure it to hit those that live 2 miles from their work/school/whatever, not those that have to travel miles by car. Make it less about where you are going, and more about where you have come from.

To think road tax will work to achieve anything more than increased revenue for a wasteful government is to be naieve in the extreme.

TelBoy

Is it a linear correlation do you know, ricardo, without going off-topic too far?

TelBoy

Yep, all fair enough, D, but i do think there will be SOME effect from high tax bands on people's choice of vehicle in the first place, regardless of usage patterns, something fuel tax alone can't address. So if we have less polluting cars on the road in the first place, then it's surely a fair assumption that the overall level of pollution will decline accordingly?

But yes i saw that Evo study too. And there are lots of unanswered questions. I still struggle with it all. I feel awkward doing nothing, and i'll be mighty annoyed if it's proved beyond doubt that we're pissing in the wind. By then of course, it will be too late to reverse what's currently being implemented...

///\oo/\\\

Tel,

In the grand scheme of things we're all pissing in the wind...

Many high tax cars are owned or leased by corporates and by high net worth individuals. They won't care if it costs £500 a year in road tax. They blow £500 a week on frivolity.

Yes, if we all (globally) buy less poluting cars (or simply drive them less) we will cut "pollution" but not by a hugely significant amount.

What did that report say? China is due to build over 500 new coal fired power stations in the next few years?

We need to deal with the good ol' US of A and the emerging economies like China and India if (and its a big if) we concede that co2 emissions have to be cut or want to cut the rate of natural resource exhaustion.

And that won't happen. Not in our lifetime.

So accept that you are pissing in the wind already, but at least make sure you're pissing down wind

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

This is mental, lumping 'fairly' frugal cars in with Massive SUVs just because they cross a threshold, I think it will make more people jus tthink bollocks to it, why bother getting a 2.0 T VW when I might as well get a Cayenne turbo as I will pay the same tax ?

I reckon it should be on the CO2 per mile, what it emits is what you pay in pounds, or even better, just put it on petrol, or better still, leave us alone you grabbing ****, sort out what money is wasted on rather than just screwing us for more.

ricardo

The government tests for mpg may be done a different way to the measurements of CO2/km, so the numbers might come out differently for different cars. The 'true' mpg and the 'true' CO2/km numbers will vary from moment to moment, but the amount of CO2 derived from burning a tank of petrol is probably pretty much the same whether it is idling in traffic or haring round a track - it is all chemistry. The oxygen in the air combines with the hydrocarbons in the petrol, the H and O2 end up as the water vapour and the C and more O2 gives the CO2.

2C8H18 + 25O2 --> 16CO2 + 18H2O

CharlesW

Yes, it is just another of Gordon's taxes. He thinks he can get away with it by posturing/pandering to the Green lobby. If he wants to tax fuel use as he claims, why doesn't he just stick to tax on fuel.

Also the politicians don't set a very good example. Why are the lights in government buildings left blazing all night?

The lights are on - but is anybody home? | Uk News | News | Telegraph

As usual it's "Do as I say, not do as I do."

If anyone thinks they can persuade the Chinese or the Indians to go along with this Global Warming/Climate Change bandwagon, they have less grip on reality than I realised. These countries do not have a "Green Lobby" to pander to. They are all eagerly awaiting those jobs, that "countering climate change" will cost Europe.

Even some of the scientists, who believe human actions are actually causing climate change, are now warning the politicians and the attendent "Green Lobby" to tone down their predictions of catastrophe. If they don't they fear they will lose the support of the general public.

The earth may be warming up slightly. The evidence suggest a 0.5 degree rise in the past 30 years, but that was after a drop during the previous 30 years. CO2 levels have risen in the past 150 years. But this rise is from a very low level, when you look at the history of the atmosphere.

Global Temperature and Atmospheric CO2 over Geologic Time

What excuse are they going to use, when we are all using biofuel or hydrogen?

apples24

iTrader: (1)

fookin coonts


does my 1996 2.8tdi shogun fall into the G cat???????

what about ford transit 2.5 diesel?



edited to add looking here
The cost of vehicle tax for cars, motorcycles, light goods vehicles and trade licences : Directgov - Motoring



it looks like it more than likely effect cars after 2001 as thats when they charge per emmission output

scooby-tc

iTrader: (2)

It should be the older cars that are in the higher tax bracket as everyone knows they pump out more crap than the newer technically advanced cars that have cats etc fitted to them.The latest cars have very low emissions so should be in the lowest band IMO of course

Flatcapdriver

Tel, if HMG genuinely used taxation as tool to encourage the adoption of green policies then I'd be all for it but the simple fact of the matter is that they have seen this as the ideal opportunity to extract more revenue out of a portion of the electorate that is in the minority.

If they are going to tax vehicles based on their CO2 emissions, then this should be invested in a transport system to provide a viable alternative which we all know doesn't happen.

Conversely, in order to promote sustainability why doesn't the Government use taxation as tool to aid new technologies such as heat pumps, solar power or LPG powered vehicles by exempting them or lowering the thresholds for their adoption? Simple, because there is no genuine interest in green issues outside the ability to extract increased revenue out of the apathetic electorate.

The sad thing about this whole approach is that people like myself are now losing interest in promoting any form of environmentally benign technology for fear of being taxed out of existence once the Government latches on to it.

Geddon

Grrrrr! Stupid Government- who voted this lot in anyway?
I'd love to think the money raised would go back into Public transport but I doubt that very much. I wouldn't mind so much if I could use Public transport for work but it would cost more and end up taking 3 times as long.

How exactly has everyone been conned by the 'green' excuse to raise more tax for Flash?

Still at least he hasnt noticed litre bikes with racepipes yet

WRX265

It's all lies; do they plant any trees with the tax that they take? No
First they said all cars have to have a cat to clean the gasses they put out; my 04 Wrx has two cats. My tax for this year is £190. They said the duty on fuel was to help cut down on emissions, what do they do with the tax? They don't do anything with that money to help the environment. One Volcano erupting will put out millions of tones of sh*t into the air, and that’s a natural thing of the Earth. What will they do next Tax Volcanoes? Look at all those over sea workers that have come in to this country, millions of them. They all want a car to drive. So that has increased our pollution footprint by a huge amount, do they stop them coming? No, they give them money to buy a car to find work.
Let’s all wake up and smell the trees, [if they had planted any?] It's all about making money and it's time we stood up and said F*ck Off

Rob

Spyder550

When we are all on our eco-bicycles, ride on solar buses, and have wind powered houses, and thus not paying any fuel tax. Where will Golden Brown (or his tory equivalent) take the tax from us to waste on stupid government schemes and MP's Pensions? He or his equivalent will have to get in from us somewhere! May as well keep driving my car.

StickyMicky

what band is the classic in?

deanwoodward

i think we are ok with classics fingers crossed

Geddon

Just paid my tax tonight- was 175 for a classic. Youre ok if pre March 2001 I think.

PS I always thought Classics were better

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Wonder if brown will set an example and lose the ministerial jag and get a toyota hybrid .

drewzer

it is getting rediculous im not paying 400 for road tax when the end of my road is like a ploughed field, i aint payin that sorry i love my scoob but that is takin the funking ****!!!! what the hell is the uk gona do about co2 emisions on a global span, the uk produces the equivilant co2 in one year to that of the state of texas in one week!!!! bye bye im leaving the country cos it is funked . . . . . . . or maby due to the amount of emissions a jubo jet creates even selling my house wont pay for a ticket soon!!!! somone bring back guyfox please

swampster

iTrader: (1)

The other downside to this, is that it may well hurt the value of the cars... a possible scenario is, shed loads want to offload their scoobs etc due to increasing tax hikes... lots don't want to buy due to running costs and excessively high tax.

Not saying that's going to happen but I'd say it's a possibility!

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Is he planning on hitting the lower bands as well ?

Sauron

There is a very simple way to make the UK "Carbon Neutral".
Abolish Parliament. Think of all the Hot CO2 and methane that would save. The gov. are full of ****. They need to be careful remember what happened to Thatcher and the Poll Tax. Could bring this lot down with any luck.
Anyway all the extra money raised will not go towards roads or public transport but to fund the London Olympics!!! They must get theri £20Bn from somewhere.

Spyder550

Agree with you there Whoever the party is they get to big for their own boots after a couple of terms in power. I do hope Brown gets a swift kick in the ***** from the electorate at the earliest opportunity. Not that the other parties are any better

ricardo_wrx

If this goes through, I wonder if it will rouse a mass protest? Id join a rolling road block style convoy!

It would be a great site to see loads of performance cars driving at 10mph down the M1 heading for Downing Street. Lol

zip106

Unfortunately it's in the Great British psyche to lie down and give up when it comes to paying taxes! (with the exception of the poll tax, but that was just renta-mob)

ash1

iTrader: (2)

wonder if countries like Russia, China and the Indian subcontinent will follow suite ? If climate change was related to CO2 then you should understand the level of pollution these countries are putting out.

road tax, congestion charges, road pricing, tax on fuel - how much more of this is sustainable? whats the alternatives ? buses and trains that smell of urine ?

ricardo_wrx

Id love a revolution!

sti-04!!

At least my 4x4's actually go off road.

Bring it GB