OllyK

I suspect it more likely that they'd be appearing on TV in a couple of weeks looking rather bruised and subdued.

Neither the UK or US has the resources to wage yet another war unsupported by the rest of NATO / UN

Chrisgr31

I think the tell tale to why they are confessing to being in Iranian waters is what one was reported to have said last week. The words I heard on the radio were "Apparently we were in Iranian waters..."

The Iranians I assume have told them that they have strayed into Iranian waters, and presumably they have believed it. So they are apologising for accidentially straying into waters and the Iranians have told them they did it.

brihoppy

im surprised no-one has got in here before me...!!!

current CAC (conduct after capture) training is sooooo far removed from what used to be called 'the big 4, (recently big 6), ICATQ'...meaning; name, rank, number, DOB, (recently added blood group and religion), followed by 'i cannot answer that question,' to any other question...

this is still the SOP but now its all about establishing a rapport with your captors...a lesson learned by the military from the likes of terry waite, john mccarthy, and other kidnap victims...stiff upper lip and keeping schtum gets you no food at best and badly hurt at worse...

i can tell you someone would only have to show me a car battery with jump leads attached and id sing like a canary...very few people captured know anything worth dying over...

ive often said i wouldnt let the filthy b*stards take me alive...big talk i know but theres no way my friends and family are seeing me beheaded on al jazeera...being taken captive by the iranians is slightly different as this is purely political posturing as mentioned by a few people so far...

we will get them back...eventually

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

They were in the Navy equivalent of a dingy armed with handguns when they were approached by the Iranian gun boats and faced with Rocket Propelled Grenades and heavy machine guns. There's bravery and then there is stupidity.

What is more bothersome is that the helicopter flying above did nothing and the Captain of their ship did nothing all because we are on some sort of 'hug the locals' initiavtive.

I'd have had an Apache Gunship above them asap with a 'leave them alone or we will blow you out of the water' message playing in very very clear Iranian.

5t.

moses

mate lol nae offence it woz just on the difference of persians and arabs, lol mechanics mate their awesome withoot them the people wont be able tae drive

and dont say u aint racist but i hate people justifying themselves, , keep it real and God bless and nae worries i get called racist and terrorist all the time, i dont give a damn whit they say, we know whit we r

peace and nice tae talk tae u

The Zohan

Makes a lot of sense, thanks

The Zohan

It is a real shame they did not have any sort of back-up in case of this very real eventuality happening.

I am sure they surrendered though gritted teeth and feel somewhat let down!

dazdavies

iTrader: (22)

Some nonsense opinions on here as usual.
As mentioned earlier times have moved on from the big four name, rank number etc.

What gets up my nose is that most of you think the Brits would have just given the confession lightly . I'll tell you now the iranians are barbaric *******s at the best of times.
Our men and women would be deprived of sleep, hungry, confused and scared. Whilst they may not be being physically tortured they will be menatally tortured. A small confession that the world would know is meaningless under duress which could possibly save a life in that situation would be considered acceptable to provide .

There are SOP's that are adhered to in these circumstances. There are also provisions for when things get really difficult to give that little bit extra. For example cover stories are used which would be agreed before any operation so that all members involved would come up with the same story. Again this cover story would only be given when things got severe.

Now obviously a cover story wasn't used here as there was no need for one as the navy was not in Iranian waters but i am just using that as an example that other measures are used other than the standard name rank number etc.

I just wish most of you would realise the duress and pressure these guys are under and that with the added fear and uncertainty of whats going to happen next most of you would be in a curled up ball crying for your mum.

So please stop spouting your nonsense and theories and needlessly berrating our troops without knowing the full facts or having any idea what you're talking about.

Just my tuppence worth.

Daz (ex 42 Commando Royal marines)

Daveo

Some interesting points in this thread.

I would be very surprised if the sailors and marines that were captured knew exactly the position of the ship they were asked to go and board. They would simply have been told, it's that one over there. You've got to remember that boarding ships in that area (the Northern Arabian Gulf or NAG) will be a daily occurrance for HMS CORNWALL and her boarding parties.

It would be very difficult for them to know if they had or had not strayed over the terrortorial line.

Iran must have been watching the situation and decided that last friday was the day they were going to make an example of the British - why else would they have had film cameras onboard at the time?? They should simply have escorted the boats back over into Iraqi waters - instead they decided to take this course of action.

As a member of the Royal Navy myself for 18 years (and I know one of the guys who is captured) i can say almost certainly that none of them will have had any Conduct After Capture training - possibly some of the marines if they'd served in hostile areas previously.

Like has been mentioned, these are normal people like you and me who, although knowing the risks full well about operating in the persian gulf, probably don't think for one minute that they would be captured and paraded in front of tv cameras.

The Iranians will know full well what tricks and mind games to play on the captives to get them to 'confess' - it is in no way a sign of 'squealing' or selling out, just a natural reaction from normal human beings who want to see their families and friends again. Please try and imagine what you would do in there situation.

Hopefully once the Iranians have got their propoganda coup and made their point, they will return the British unharmed.

Just my two pennies worth.

Dave

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

yip, the days of "Name, Rank, Number" are long gone.

Basically, if it means you will get some extra comforts, your not giving any secrets away, and you think you can live with it after you're released - Say it.

"Yes, I was wearing a pink tutu and calling for my mummy when I was captured" - big deal, its just words, if it means you get some warmth and the quality of your food improves then bloody say it!

The guys they have picked out to do the little "interviews" are not the experienced, hardend marines and saliors - they're picking out the kids. The extent of their CAC training would have been a verbal brief, as actual CAC training is expensive and the course capacity too small to train everyone.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

There was some Iranians on tv a few weeks back, trying to portray their country as modern and cosmopolitain ?

A bit of PR, trying to distance themselves from Iraq, that was a load of boll-ocks then wasnt it !

Now if we had caught some Iranian soldiers they would have a council house and £500 quid a week in benefits, I am fairly certain they wouldnt be made to say stuff they have obviously been told to say on national telly.

Would the west bother with the middle east if it wasnt for oil, dont think so, the quicker we get some alternative the better and then we dont need to bother with the religous, violent terror regime, and the middle east...

Minitrue

They arent your brothers moses; calm down soft-lad.

moses

sorry i class all muslims as my brothers and the good folk among the unbelievers



even if most persians r shia, jew or christian, still my brothers and sisters even if i dont agree wae shia ism coz they follow a shiite doctrine lol did u get the joke shiite doctrine haha

CHRIS_D

Beat me to it mate.

Before we deploy we do about a weeks worth of mandatory 'operational theatre' related training (known as OPTAG) which includes about 2 days of lectures. One of these lectures happens to be conduct after capture. The days of sticking to the big 4 are now gone, experience has proven that if you stick to that you are of no use and will end up dead. We are now told to tell em what would be considered accessable information for joe public and to take any rewards or comforts offered.

With regards to their posture and why they are admitting it, i think it's already been covered. All their GPS equipment would have been conviscated on capture, they have no access to british consular advice and therefore probably unsure whether they were or were not in Iraqi/Iraninan waters. At present they only have the Iranian say so to go on. I've no doubt that they are being promted on what to say and personnally i think they know we know this too. I would also imagine they are being told lies about what the brit government are doing about it too and how they have reacted

If it was me i would be proper shi**ing myself and thinking of nothing but my family and getting to safety. I would say anything to get me home, i don't know any secrets so there's nothing to hide, if i did i imagine i would have recieved a more intense CAC training package anyway.

Daveo

Pongos, matelots and crabs going on land operations get the benefit of OPTAG training...matelots and bootnecks deploying to the area by RN warship unfortunately don't.

Dave

DCI Gene Hunt

Laughing, confident and professional, at the end of the day they'll get released due to how they've handled this whole situation.

Those lads have managed to secure their own release and kept their diginty at all times.

scoobynutta555

There was some army chap on tv the other day saying they have changed the 'name, number and rank' guideline to something different. Due to the likelihood that soldiers may be captured by terrorists and not the traditional types of enemy, soldiers are now encouraged to guage the situation and act accordingly. So if that meant 'confessing' rather than have their eyes poked out I know what I'd choose since they are more than likely not endangering any current or future missions.

That's what I got from this tv interview, I have no first hand experience of the armed forces.

Leslie

Let's just say that you were in their position with no access to embassy staff and no knowledge of what is happening outside of your immediate vicinity.
Bear in mind that you are in captivity and have almost certainly have been given to understand that you had better cooperate and do just what you are told if you know what is good for you.

Tell us what you would do and would you be prepared to undergo any kind of torture to avoid giving the sort of broadcast that they want you to?

Les

speedking

Les,

I am not a trained soldier. I am not paid to risk my life in battle. Therefore how I would react (crying like a baby and begging to be let go) is not relevant.

I pay these guys wages and expect them to do their duty.

Well obviously they were in that area for a reason, i.e. a valid mission. The RN cannot go to those coordinates again as they have confessed to being in Iranian waters. Therefore there can be no future missions to that location. Pretty compromised I would say.

Secondly this gives the green light to any Iranian expansionist tendencies in the area. Capture a few Brits and get endorsement of their interpretation of where borders are.

Thirdly it endangers any servicemen in the area who may be captured and held to ransom for political ends, because they will say whatever you want them to on national TV.

Why can't they say, "look I'm not the navigator, I have no idea where we were when we were captured, I just sit in the boat and get taken wherever"

I have a lot of respect for the Armed Forces but this just seems too much of a cave in.

brihoppy

no offence to you personally, but im getting pretty sick of hearing this when theres a thread of this kind...

Drunken Bungle Whore

Good to see some sensible posts (Brihoppy, Chris_D et al.) on here in amongst all the twaddle! I honestly cannot believe that some people are dim enough not to realise what's going on and that these "confessions" mean sweet FA.

I'm not in the armed forces, and neither myself nor any of my family or friends have ever been in the armed forces - but even I'd managed to figure out that it's all political game playing and the confessions mean nothing.

Somedays it feels like this place is overrun with Daily Mail readers.....

CHRIS_D

How little you know. I pay my wages too thanks, in fact i probably pay just as much if not more tax than you do.

spot on mate, well said.

DCI Gene Hunt

Is Brihoppy about to go "RAMBO"

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

The confessions have huge impact on the presence of Allied troops in the Middle East. What they say may not mean much to them, they may be able to live happily with what they have said.

Its what the Iranian government can do with the clips and footage that they have given them. Getting admissions from our forces on TV, allows them to make all sorts of claims about what other members of our armed forces are doing. Iraq is already dangerous enough, and so many people want to discredit what is happening there already. The whole place is a mess, and anything that inflames the situation further may cost the lives of our personnel who are currently serving there.

I am sure that the Iranians did not do this on a whim. They have a plan, and they seem to have so far managed to get everything that they planned for. Only in time will be aware of how they intend to use this footage to their advantage.

The current situation does not compare to the American 444 day hostage take, there they embarrassed the president out of power. TB is already on the way out. As TB is on the way out he is not going to give in over sanctions or nuclear weapons. There has to be another reason.

Jerome

Does anybody really think these so-called confessions have any validity whatsoever?

If these soldiers are released, the second they are safe, they will all retract their confessions.

No one outside Iran believes the Iranian version of events anyway, so Iran will have no mileage in any supposed and discredited trespass.

scoobynutta555

To my mind the RN and gov't haven't said they were in Iraninan waters, so I'm unsure where you get that no missions cannot be done in the area again

What I assume will happen in the future is that patrols will be better equiped to deal with hostiles and perhaps the rules of engagement may change to prevent this occuring again. Although it seems lessons haven't been learnt from the last time hostages were taken from a similar area. I'd be asking questions about the RN leadership that allowed the situation to develop rather than having a pop at the boys on the ground.

Banging on with 'I pay your wages therefore....' is quite a simplistic argument in any circumstance.

dan83590

Has anyone mentioned that what the heck does it matter whos water they were in. Christ alive! Do Iran board every sailing boat that crosses through that bit of water. I think not. Were our ships in that position, guns honed on Iran, I think not. Are we at war with Iran, I think not. So why does it matter what bit waters they were in. Its all just one massive publicity stunt at the sailors expense. A stunt to highlight the fact they have have imposed sanctions because they are interested in manufacturing weapons grade materials. Why shouldn't they, we have nuclear weapons, so does America, etc? You can begin to understand why nations are angry.

If the western world wants countries like Iran to stop their research then perhaps we should be the ones to set an example.

OllyK

As long as Iran don't change their mind and decide to prosecute them using the video footage as an admission of guilt!

scoobynutta555

I don't think not having a confession on tape would make the prosecutions case any harder do you?

andythejock01wrx

The western democracies have at least proved (post '45) that they are unlikely to use nuclear weapons - that they see them as a deterrent. I'm not convinced the Iranian "democracy" could be trusted to do the same.