OllyK

Probably not, but no doubt Iran would make the most of such "evidence"

Diesel

I have to believe this, as, no one has come on TV looking anything like the abused condition of the Zimbabwe opposition party members... Hard to think they would roll over and say anything without a fight, and a few of them with bruises on TV would sink the Iranians boat [so to speak]...

D

chinnjamie

hey guys i just got back from being in afganistan and we were told if ever captured to say whatever you thought needed for the best welfare of yourself and everyone around you. I bet as soon as they are free, they will explain they were under duress and specific orders from the iranians to say such things.

Diesel

Yes and that will be a small column on page 33 of some Persian/Arabic daily papers - NOT page one in caps of "BRITISH SAILORS CONFESS".

I really think it may be being a bit naive to think that these confessions [esp to get extra comforts [?]] have no negative impact on world events and our perception outside of UK. I would suggest they do a huge propaganda service for the Iranians as many less Western countries will lead with these headlines.

It's best Iran angle to keep their muslim mates on board as relationships with Westerners are on a downhill slope anyway - hence their 'screw you' attitude.

D

dan83590

So are Iranians not human beings like us then? Do Iranians want to see their families, wives and children burnt and mamed by a nuclear war just because they are Iranian? Are people from other countries not to be trusted? Come on now, stop listening to the media and make up your own mind.

Us, the western world, need to begin to realise that people from other countries aren't stupid, weird, evil, well no more than we are. They are living and growing up in a different part of the world, thats all. I bet they look at us and think we are a bit weird. I guess what I'm trying to get accross is why the hell should nations like ourselves and the likes of the USA be trusted with WMD all the while preaching to the rest of the world to stop.

andythejock01wrx

Well, that's an extremely PC approach. So all countries should be able entitled to have nuclear weapons ? Is that your argument ? If not, who should, and who should not ? Perhaps if a country is not a true democracy and it's leaders are wrapped up in their own ideology then nuclear weapons are less likely to be "safe" in their hands ?

Would you hand a few nuclear weapons to Mugabe to play with too ?

regards

Andy Mc

RICH S202

I agree whole heartedly with your opinion. Theories are just that so people that are not in the know need to keep this sort of thing to themselves.
Iranians, as Daz said, do not operate on a physical torture basis but on sensory depravation which messes with the mind to a degree that it is not outwardly apparent.
I am not going to go any further into the do's and don't on what you should do upon capture except pray that you make it out alive and thats it. These proffessional soldiers are doing what they need to do .

Rich (current 156 Pro Coy)

Diesel

>> Our men and women would be deprived of sleep, hungry, confused and scared.<<

I am really sorry chaps, and not having a go at anyone far braver than me here [being a big wuss myself] but that was NOT coming across on the TV last night. I know it was only a snapshot, and they only selected the smiling shots for the edit, but am I the only one that is wondering about this a little?

D

brihoppy

im sure theyre being treated alot better than nicol/peters, etc, were in '91 by the iraqis...and no doubt whats called shock of capture has probably more or less gone by now, but im sure its still no holiday camp for them...they are being used purely for political propaganda purposes...to what end i cant quite understand at this point...

Diesel

Fantastic news that they are free - who knows, their positive attitude might have made the Iranians feel guilty:con fused:

The Iranians have definitely milked them well for regional propaganda and probably, at least on a regional basis, are coming up smelling of roses...

D

andythejock01wrx

.............and look, no "swear filter abuse" either.

SwissTony

iTrader: (19)

15 sailors captured for straying into Iranian waters. 14 men, 1 woman. Doesn't take a genius to work out who was reading the ******* map, does it!

lozgti

It's probably an awful thing to say,but I find the whole thing an embarrasment.

Which I presume is what they wanted

daiscooby

Sorry matey but I was in the Army for 13 years 82-95, and was directly involved in TQ with Hunter Force and others. And SOP has defo changed big time then. We were taught and we relayed the 3 Goldens:

Name
Rank
Service Number

Nowt else directly for the 'the best welfare of yourself and everyone around you'. But what can you expect from a bunch of Red *****

But as with most things I am sad to see basics have slipped major style in the last decade. Glad I am out.

Not knocking anyone serving in the slightest, honest. But it is a different world to the one I inhabited.

brihoppy

its quite apparent that youre out of touch with the current SOPs for CAC...look at some of the previous posts and youll see it explained...policy changed in the late 90s i believe...

i was on a hunter force last year myself in a SERE exercise for aircrew and the TQ probably hasnt changed much but CAC training certainly has...

im not so sure the 'basics' as you put it have slipped at all, but were not at war with signatories of the geneva convention...

Diesel

PMSL

bugsti

I think you are right.

What I dont understand is, why didn't the Navy protect these guys better. They were obviously sent in with no back up from the frigate - thereby giving the Iranian government the opportunity for a major propaganda coup. Nothing short of incompetence and there should be an inquiry.

Bet it dosn't happen again.

scoobynutta555

Isn't this the second load of Brit armed forces caught like this in a similar area?

dan83590

I think you know what my argument is. Countries like our own should be setting the example by getting rid. My comments may be seen as 'PC'. But what is 'PC'? Am I 'PC' because I can see the world with my eyes open rather than blinkered? Am I 'PC' because I am able to read in between the lines of the western worlds media? You believe what you want to believe, but me, I'll still be using my free will to make up my own mind.

scoobynutta555

Unilateral disarmament in a world where nutters running certain countries are furiously building nukes or increasing their stock. Nice plan, shame you're a bit late for that great leader Michael Foot

Diesel

Yep, the time for unilateralism has, sadly, passed. You could have got away with it 10 yrs ago. but now it would be like castrating yourself in a sperm donor clinic - not the smartest move! [a thread on its own really Dan]

andythejock01wrx

You're PC because you see the world blinkered - ie that all governments are equal and should therefore be as entitled to have nuclear weapons as a woman is to give birth. Agreed that we need to use multiple sources of media to get an idea of what's really going on out there.

The other chaps on here have covered unilateralism. The world is less predictable, not more, post cold war. If we dispose of our nukes now we can't simply magic them back once a serious threat to our national interests emerges.

Sbradley

Navy protect them better? What are you suggesting here - that one of Her Majesty's warships should engage vessels of another sovereign nation on the high seas? That's an act of war - not something that should be undertaken lightly.

The options open to HMS Cornwall's skipper were to engage using the 4.5" main gun - something which would have been effective for sure but would also have killed our people as shell fragments and blast tend to be rather indiscrimiate - or to close in and engage with small arms. Frigates are not designed or equipped for close in surface engagements where anything less than total destruction is required. They're primarily air defence and anti submarine vessels.

The ship's helicopter is a naval Lynx. That means that its primary armament is Sea Skua anti ship missiles - no good against small boats and as fatal to our own people as the 4.5" gun on board - or anti submarine torpedoes. If there are any guns fitted they would be flexible mounted GPMGs fired from the cabin, and would require the aircraft to be placed well within range of the heavy machine guns on the Iranian boats.

So standing off, observing and reporting was the best thing that the chopper crew could do, and that's what they did. Remember that there have been plenty of encounters like this before, 99% of which have passed without incident. There was no reason to expect this one to be any different until it was to late to practically affect the outcome.

Please remember that this is reality, not a Tom Clancy book where heavy weapons are miraculously selective in who they kill and the diplomatic ramifications of acts of war are sorted by a phone call to the Kremlin...

SB (Ex Royal Marines pilot)

andythejock01wrx

Good post S. What ship to ship missiles would the Cornwall have been carrying ? Harpoon ?

jbl

I read this thread with interest and feel rather sad at some of the comments expressed. I only know that I am relieved that it was not myself who found himself in such a position as the hostages and am so pleased for their release.
I never contemplated a career in the 'Forces ' but my son has/did and it is not a pleasant feeling when you know what may happen but pray that it won't. He is safely back with his family after a tour in Iraq. As for the marines/sailors I can only feel relief for their safe release and will not even begin to question if they behaved correctly or not... I wasn't there and speculation is not always a good thing.
As to the wider view then no doubt there are opinions from all angles and divergence of views , which I accept, but cannot see a need to insult or be offensive to anyone because of their views.

Just my two penn'orth as a Dad.

Brian

bugsti

An Iranian warship engaged a vessel of another sovereign nation on the high seas. Is this, by definition from the above statement, an act of war by Iran.

Never read anything by Tom Clancy by the way.

Diesel

I'm sure we would have done the same if we found Iranian navy ships with armed soldiers aboard off the coast of Britain, and with the same righteous indignation as the Iranians. However I believe no shots were fired so let the diplomats have a stab at it first I guess?

I thought in another thread that Hamas taking an Israeli soldier as hostage was clearly an act of war mind so this is a tricky one.

D

Sbradley

Yes, Harpoon.

SB

Sbradley

Had the Iranians fired a shot then yes it would have been. Otherwise it was an act of piracy, whether state sponsored or otherwise.

Oh, and Tom Clancy is actually quite a good read once you can get past the stereotyping and the God bless America that runs through the whole thing. Rainbow Six in particular is worth wading through...

SB

Sbradley

But would we have reacted that way if the Iranians were operating under a UN mandate following military action in France?

Good post, though

SB