4wd Vs Fwd Vs Rwd
24 April 2007, 01:21 PM
#32
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For finely crafted handing I think you'll struggle to beat a good RWD car with an FR or MR layout and 50:50 weight distribution. For grip though you'll struggle to touch a good 4WD car. The key thing is to make the disctinction between grip/traction and handling. For example I'll order the cars I've owned by each category 1=best, etc:
Grip
1. Subaru STI 5
2. Subaru Turbo 2000
~3. Honda S2000
~3. Saxo VTS
4. Pug 406 V6
Handling
1. Honda S2000
~2. Saxo VTS
~2. Subaru STI 5
3. Subaru Turbo 2000
4. Pug 406 V6
You can see the Pug is clearly a luxo-barge and it shows with regards to its grip and handling. The STI 5 grips like **** to a stick and none of the others could match it in this department. There is so much bite into the road and traction! But for handling the S2000, which is joint 3rd on grip is a far more able, adjustable (and fun) and responsive car. I do have to admit that if you only ever drove broken c/b class roads the Impreza's handling is better as it deals with being upset by bumps/ruts better. The STI 5 comes 2nd for handling with reasonble adjustability and predictability and its very complient attitude to the road conditions. The VTS is a more adjustable and direct car than the STI but its not as compliant and can be thrown from the desired line on rougher roads thus they tie.
The UK scooby which is 2nd for grip is further down for handling. It's loosing out the STI for being less of an adjustable car IMHO and not holding on as well in the grip stakes. However, I'm maybe not being fare as learning to drive a RWD really helped me when I got back into a 4WD car so I'd probably find the Turbo 2000 to be a lot closer to the STI than I remember.
My conclusion from all this is that to make an assessment of the best handling cars you have to consider the application. I keep running this line with regards to straight line racing as well. If you are going to race 0-1000m for christ sake get a big cc barge with monster power but if you are going for 1/8th mile runs you want very lightweight 4WD with a light, small turbo engine and short gears.
The same is true of handling. A Discovery has better handling off road than a Mazda MX5 because it was designed with that application in mind. Similarly a scooby has better overall grip and handling than an S2000 on a dodgy scottish backlane but loses out on a sweeping a-road or smooth track. So it's a largely pointless arument IMHO.
I would say though that if you've not tried RWD you really should. It is amazing fun and its good having no power corruption through the steering
Grip
1. Subaru STI 5
2. Subaru Turbo 2000
~3. Honda S2000
~3. Saxo VTS
4. Pug 406 V6
Handling
1. Honda S2000
~2. Saxo VTS
~2. Subaru STI 5
3. Subaru Turbo 2000
4. Pug 406 V6
You can see the Pug is clearly a luxo-barge and it shows with regards to its grip and handling. The STI 5 grips like **** to a stick and none of the others could match it in this department. There is so much bite into the road and traction! But for handling the S2000, which is joint 3rd on grip is a far more able, adjustable (and fun) and responsive car. I do have to admit that if you only ever drove broken c/b class roads the Impreza's handling is better as it deals with being upset by bumps/ruts better. The STI 5 comes 2nd for handling with reasonble adjustability and predictability and its very complient attitude to the road conditions. The VTS is a more adjustable and direct car than the STI but its not as compliant and can be thrown from the desired line on rougher roads thus they tie.
The UK scooby which is 2nd for grip is further down for handling. It's loosing out the STI for being less of an adjustable car IMHO and not holding on as well in the grip stakes. However, I'm maybe not being fare as learning to drive a RWD really helped me when I got back into a 4WD car so I'd probably find the Turbo 2000 to be a lot closer to the STI than I remember.
My conclusion from all this is that to make an assessment of the best handling cars you have to consider the application. I keep running this line with regards to straight line racing as well. If you are going to race 0-1000m for christ sake get a big cc barge with monster power but if you are going for 1/8th mile runs you want very lightweight 4WD with a light, small turbo engine and short gears.
The same is true of handling. A Discovery has better handling off road than a Mazda MX5 because it was designed with that application in mind. Similarly a scooby has better overall grip and handling than an S2000 on a dodgy scottish backlane but loses out on a sweeping a-road or smooth track. So it's a largely pointless arument IMHO.
I would say though that if you've not tried RWD you really should. It is amazing fun and its good having no power corruption through the steering
24 April 2007, 01:25 PM
#33
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[QUOTE=martyrobertsdj;6863627]I once remember reading how one of the finest handling FWD cars was a ..........Peugeot 309Gti.[QUOTE]
As someone who's had 2 309GTis and now 2 scoobs I can say that the 309GTi was a very good handling car, being that little bit wider and longer than the 205 meant that it handled as well but didn't have some of the lift off traits that the 205s appeared to have (I can remember trying to see but even at quite high speeds never managed to get the back out further than I could catch it again )
To me a good handling car is something that an change direction quickly and smoothly as well as giving back a lot of info about what is going on with both the front and the rear of the car.
Generally lots of the fast Audis weren't seen as being good handling due to the engine being slung way out the front which tended to mean that they could plough on a bit (understeer).
In an ideal world a great handling car would generally never suffer from under or oversteer, and if it was going to suffer from one then oversteer is really what you want as it can be controlled a bit more by the throttle rather than maybe having to brake to cope with the understeer, which could cause more trouble than it saved IYKWIM.
As someone who's had 2 309GTis and now 2 scoobs I can say that the 309GTi was a very good handling car, being that little bit wider and longer than the 205 meant that it handled as well but didn't have some of the lift off traits that the 205s appeared to have (I can remember trying to see but even at quite high speeds never managed to get the back out further than I could catch it again
)To me a good handling car is something that an change direction quickly and smoothly as well as giving back a lot of info about what is going on with both the front and the rear of the car.
Generally lots of the fast Audis weren't seen as being good handling due to the engine being slung way out the front which tended to mean that they could plough on a bit (understeer).
In an ideal world a great handling car would generally never suffer from under or oversteer, and if it was going to suffer from one then oversteer is really what you want as it can be controlled a bit more by the throttle rather than maybe having to brake to cope with the understeer, which could cause more trouble than it saved IYKWIM.
24 April 2007, 01:29 PM
#34
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There's a lot of tosh talked about handling as far as road cars are conerned. Yes, it's all very well having a car that can be held sideways and steered on the throttle nicely, but would you want to do that on the road? If so, for what proportion of the time?
Few drivers, myself included, are skilled enough to drive a car beyond the edge of adhension with confidence and make a detailed analysis of a cars handling. An analysis that, in any case, is rather subjective!
And before we get a load of keyboard warriors on here saying that they are good enough to drive like that most of the time, consider this: Even professionals like Solberg make a pigs ear of it at times and that's in a car worth 100's of thousands designed for the purpose of driving sideways! Can you say that you can definately be relied on to drive a car to its limits at with traffic coming the other way and not wipe out?? I couldn't, no matter how well motoring journalists (who, incidentally, crash a awful lot) had said the car handled!
What Joe Average wants (and don't kid yourselves, that's 99% on here, me included) is a car with great grip and traction and lots of torque for punching out of bends. That's exactly what Rice Rockets are designed to do and why we love em!
As for cars that handle well e.g. the MX5, last time I checked they are predominantly driven by hairdressers......................oh, and pslewis!!
Sorry Pete!
Ns04
Few drivers, myself included, are skilled enough to drive a car beyond the edge of adhension with confidence and make a detailed analysis of a cars handling. An analysis that, in any case, is rather subjective!
And before we get a load of keyboard warriors on here saying that they are good enough to drive like that most of the time, consider this: Even professionals like Solberg make a pigs ear of it at times and that's in a car worth 100's of thousands designed for the purpose of driving sideways! Can you say that you can definately be relied on to drive a car to its limits at with traffic coming the other way and not wipe out?? I couldn't, no matter how well motoring journalists (who, incidentally, crash a awful lot) had said the car handled!
What Joe Average wants (and don't kid yourselves, that's 99% on here, me included) is a car with great grip and traction and lots of torque for punching out of bends. That's exactly what Rice Rockets are designed to do and why we love em!
As for cars that handle well e.g. the MX5, last time I checked they are predominantly driven by hairdressers......................oh, and pslewis!!
Sorry Pete!
Ns04
24 April 2007, 01:36 PM
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Hence the reason most cars on the roads now are FWD instead of RWD as it is inherently "safer".
Personally I'd not be sliding any car about on public roads... not now I've grown up
although I was never that bad with it anyway, tended to find empty spaces to practice in.Got to say for me that I enjoy driving the scoob far more than other cars I've had/have as the AWD suits me down to the ground, esp when the back roads I'm mainly driving on are as bad as they are.
24 April 2007, 01:57 PM
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Oversteer is king.....Understeer is pants, therefore there is no way as long as I have a hole in my ar*e that a FWD car will ever be the best handling, it just can't happen 
As for the argument about RWD/AWD, that would depend on the above. Mild progressive, predictable oversteer for me...wooohoo
As for the argument about RWD/AWD, that would depend on the above. Mild progressive, predictable oversteer for me...wooohoo
24 April 2007, 02:14 PM
#37
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It doesn't suffer fools gladly though, which I also like!!
Ns04
24 April 2007, 02:20 PM
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Jusy my bit..................for what it's worth which doesn't prove anything really.
I am a crap driver!
In my last car 02 WRX I was forced into a friendly comparison with a shiney 320i on a long straight dual carriageway. Unsuprisingly it was a convincing victory.
At the end of the carriageway was a nasty large roundabout. The road was slightly damp and knowing my capabilities I took it easy. The 318 driver thought it was his opportunity to make ground and as he exited the bend I could see in my mirror that he lost it, snaking all over the place and making some unwanted modifications on his body work.
Was I wrong to laugh to myself.
I am a crap driver!
In my last car 02 WRX I was forced into a friendly comparison with a shiney 320i on a long straight dual carriageway. Unsuprisingly it was a convincing victory.
At the end of the carriageway was a nasty large roundabout. The road was slightly damp and knowing my capabilities I took it easy. The 318 driver thought it was his opportunity to make ground and as he exited the bend I could see in my mirror that he lost it, snaking all over the place and making some unwanted modifications on his body work.
Was I wrong to laugh to myself.
24 April 2007, 02:23 PM
#39
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Oversteer is king.....Understeer is pants, therefore there is no way as long as I have a hole in my ar*e that a FWD car will ever be the best handling, it just can't happen
As for the argument about RWD/AWD, that would depend on the above. Mild progressive, predictable oversteer for me...wooohoo
As for the argument about RWD/AWD, that would depend on the above. Mild progressive, predictable oversteer for me...wooohoo
You obviously havent driven a 106 GTi or a VTS before then as there is a hell of alot more oversteer that understeer.
24 April 2007, 02:51 PM
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Is there some course somewhere where 'we' can organise a little time trial? Not a race track, but a road with traditional road problems, invite the MLR, Saxo owners, GTROC and others?
24 April 2007, 02:53 PM
#41
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Jusy my bit..................for what it's worth which doesn't prove anything really.
I am a crap driver!
In my last car 02 WRX I was forced into a friendly comparison with a shiney 320i on a long straight dual carriageway. Unsuprisingly it was a convincing victory.
At the end of the carriageway was a nasty large roundabout. The road was slightly damp and knowing my capabilities I took it easy. The 318 driver thought it was his opportunity to make ground and as he exited the bend I could see in my mirror that he lost it, snaking all over the place and making some unwanted modifications on his body work.
Was I wrong to laugh to myself.
I am a crap driver!
In my last car 02 WRX I was forced into a friendly comparison with a shiney 320i on a long straight dual carriageway. Unsuprisingly it was a convincing victory.
At the end of the carriageway was a nasty large roundabout. The road was slightly damp and knowing my capabilities I took it easy. The 318 driver thought it was his opportunity to make ground and as he exited the bend I could see in my mirror that he lost it, snaking all over the place and making some unwanted modifications on his body work.
Was I wrong to laugh to myself.
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You will have to explain yourself to god!!!!!
24 April 2007, 03:11 PM
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24 April 2007, 04:05 PM
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Regarding the handling debate, my STi4 only has an anti lift kit as a chassis upgrade. The vast majority of understeer has been dialled out and I found myself being able to push the car very hard through corners due to the neutrality of the handling and its predictability. A bit boring to tell the truth. I’d rather a more loose backend (rear ARB soon!). Where I found a hole in its handling was switching direction through a certain complex of curves. I noticed I couldn’t get much more speed through there than a Civic Type R.
24 April 2007, 04:10 PM
#44
Jusy my bit..................for what it's worth which doesn't prove anything really.
I am a crap driver!
In my last car 02 WRX I was forced into a friendly comparison with a shiney 320i on a long straight dual carriageway. Unsuprisingly it was a convincing victory.
At the end of the carriageway was a nasty large roundabout. The road was slightly damp and knowing my capabilities I took it easy. The 318 driver thought it was his opportunity to make ground and as he exited the bend I could see in my mirror that he lost it, snaking all over the place and making some unwanted modifications on his body work.
Was I wrong to laugh to myself.
I am a crap driver!
In my last car 02 WRX I was forced into a friendly comparison with a shiney 320i on a long straight dual carriageway. Unsuprisingly it was a convincing victory.
At the end of the carriageway was a nasty large roundabout. The road was slightly damp and knowing my capabilities I took it easy. The 318 driver thought it was his opportunity to make ground and as he exited the bend I could see in my mirror that he lost it, snaking all over the place and making some unwanted modifications on his body work.
Was I wrong to laugh to myself.
24 April 2007, 04:14 PM
#45
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For finely crafted handing I think you'll struggle to beat a good RWD car with an FR or MR layout and 50:50 weight distribution. For grip though you'll struggle to touch a good 4WD car. The key thing is to make the disctinction between grip/traction and handling. For example I'll order the cars I've owned by each category 1=best, etc:
Grip
1. Subaru STI 5
2. Subaru Turbo 2000
~3. Honda S2000
~3. Saxo VTS
4. Pug 406 V6
Handling
1. Honda S2000
~2. Saxo VTS
~2. Subaru STI 5
3. Subaru Turbo 2000
4. Pug 406 V6
You can see the Pug is clearly a luxo-barge and it shows with regards to its grip and handling. The STI 5 grips like **** to a stick and none of the others could match it in this department. There is so much bite into the road and traction! But for handling the S2000, which is joint 3rd on grip is a far more able, adjustable (and fun) and responsive car. I do have to admit that if you only ever drove broken c/b class roads the Impreza's handling is better as it deals with being upset by bumps/ruts better. The STI 5 comes 2nd for handling with reasonble adjustability and predictability and its very complient attitude to the road conditions. The VTS is a more adjustable and direct car than the STI but its not as compliant and can be thrown from the desired line on rougher roads thus they tie.
The UK scooby which is 2nd for grip is further down for handling. It's loosing out the STI for being less of an adjustable car IMHO and not holding on as well in the grip stakes. However, I'm maybe not being fare as learning to drive a RWD really helped me when I got back into a 4WD car so I'd probably find the Turbo 2000 to be a lot closer to the STI than I remember.
My conclusion from all this is that to make an assessment of the best handling cars you have to consider the application. I keep running this line with regards to straight line racing as well. If you are going to race 0-1000m for christ sake get a big cc barge with monster power but if you are going for 1/8th mile runs you want very lightweight 4WD with a light, small turbo engine and short gears.
The same is true of handling. A Discovery has better handling off road than a Mazda MX5 because it was designed with that application in mind. Similarly a scooby has better overall grip and handling than an S2000 on a dodgy scottish backlane but loses out on a sweeping a-road or smooth track. So it's a largely pointless arument IMHO.
I would say though that if you've not tried RWD you really should. It is amazing fun and its good having no power corruption through the steering
Grip
1. Subaru STI 5
2. Subaru Turbo 2000
~3. Honda S2000
~3. Saxo VTS
4. Pug 406 V6
Handling
1. Honda S2000
~2. Saxo VTS
~2. Subaru STI 5
3. Subaru Turbo 2000
4. Pug 406 V6
You can see the Pug is clearly a luxo-barge and it shows with regards to its grip and handling. The STI 5 grips like **** to a stick and none of the others could match it in this department. There is so much bite into the road and traction! But for handling the S2000, which is joint 3rd on grip is a far more able, adjustable (and fun) and responsive car. I do have to admit that if you only ever drove broken c/b class roads the Impreza's handling is better as it deals with being upset by bumps/ruts better. The STI 5 comes 2nd for handling with reasonble adjustability and predictability and its very complient attitude to the road conditions. The VTS is a more adjustable and direct car than the STI but its not as compliant and can be thrown from the desired line on rougher roads thus they tie.
The UK scooby which is 2nd for grip is further down for handling. It's loosing out the STI for being less of an adjustable car IMHO and not holding on as well in the grip stakes. However, I'm maybe not being fare as learning to drive a RWD really helped me when I got back into a 4WD car so I'd probably find the Turbo 2000 to be a lot closer to the STI than I remember.
My conclusion from all this is that to make an assessment of the best handling cars you have to consider the application. I keep running this line with regards to straight line racing as well. If you are going to race 0-1000m for christ sake get a big cc barge with monster power but if you are going for 1/8th mile runs you want very lightweight 4WD with a light, small turbo engine and short gears.
The same is true of handling. A Discovery has better handling off road than a Mazda MX5 because it was designed with that application in mind. Similarly a scooby has better overall grip and handling than an S2000 on a dodgy scottish backlane but loses out on a sweeping a-road or smooth track. So it's a largely pointless arument IMHO.
I would say though that if you've not tried RWD you really should. It is amazing fun and its good having no power corruption through the steering
24 April 2007, 04:32 PM
#46
I was wrong to say that Scoobs don't handle.
What I should have said is that Scoobs are not known for handling finesse, but on real roads, real weather and point-to-point, Scoobs will still take some fecking beating!
This is due to the prodigous amount of grip and decent suspension that is set up for Joe Average.......probably most of us on here.
My Scoob was a 1998 wagon with Eibachs, etc......I know that it was bloody quick point to point, but......and here's something you will rip the p*ss out of me for...........I now have a Skoda Fabia vRS with around 180bhp and a full Eibach suspension kit..............I can drive it almost as quickly as I drove my Scoob.....real world driving. It is more torquey and it's much smoother when maintaining a brisk pace along normal B-roads. I think a data log would reveal almost the same average speeds.
This probably says far more about my driving abilities than it does about the cars!! My next car will be a 2002/3 BMW M3 Convertible, so I'll have to reprogram my mind for RWD. (and I'll have no hairdresser jokes thanks)
What I should have said is that Scoobs are not known for handling finesse, but on real roads, real weather and point-to-point, Scoobs will still take some fecking beating!
This is due to the prodigous amount of grip and decent suspension that is set up for Joe Average.......probably most of us on here.
My Scoob was a 1998 wagon with Eibachs, etc......I know that it was bloody quick point to point, but......and here's something you will rip the p*ss out of me for...........I now have a Skoda Fabia vRS with around 180bhp and a full Eibach suspension kit..............I can drive it almost as quickly as I drove my Scoob.....real world driving. It is more torquey and it's much smoother when maintaining a brisk pace along normal B-roads. I think a data log would reveal almost the same average speeds.
This probably says far more about my driving abilities than it does about the cars!! My next car will be a 2002/3 BMW M3 Convertible, so I'll have to reprogram my mind for RWD. (and I'll have no hairdresser jokes thanks)
24 April 2007, 04:50 PM
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E46 cabs are not drivers cars, you can feel the whole car twist. Shake, rattle and roll!
24 April 2007, 05:01 PM
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24 April 2007, 05:29 PM
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Oversteer is king.....Understeer is pants, therefore there is no way as long as I have a hole in my ar*e that a FWD car will ever be the best handling, it just can't happen
As for the argument about RWD/AWD, that would depend on the above. Mild progressive, predictable oversteer for me...wooohoo
As for the argument about RWD/AWD, that would depend on the above. Mild progressive, predictable oversteer for me...wooohoo
24 April 2007, 05:37 PM
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My other car is a bogo standard 406, and it handles absolutely beatifully (and grips well too)
24 April 2007, 05:39 PM
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You can't get power oversteer from a VTS/GTI (obviously) however, get them right on the edge and you really can steer on the throttle. Lift 1cm and the back comes round, move back in 1cm and she straightens up, depress 1cm and she runs wide. Kind of like having 3 buttons to press on a playstation and massively entertaining
24 April 2007, 07:25 PM
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Something has to be. Why not a 106?
Just because it hasn't got 4WD or costs £100k doesn't mean it's sh1te.
Light weight, and a very good chassis make a good handling car.
Yes there are faster cars from A to B. Quite a lot actually, but not much can make a 106GTI feel anything but fantastic in the handling stakes.
A lot of people here are confusing handling with grip/A to B pace.
Handling has sod all to do with grip, and how fast a car can get from A to B.
Afterall Richard Burns said it was, and I think he knew far better than you in what make a great handling car.
Just because it hasn't got 4WD or costs £100k doesn't mean it's sh1te.
Light weight, and a very good chassis make a good handling car.
Yes there are faster cars from A to B. Quite a lot actually, but not much can make a 106GTI feel anything but fantastic in the handling stakes.
A lot of people here are confusing handling with grip/A to B pace.
Handling has sod all to do with grip, and how fast a car can get from A to B.
Afterall Richard Burns said it was, and I think he knew far better than you in what make a great handling car.
24 April 2007, 07:34 PM
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I keep reading "Oh as its fwd it handles so much better than a scoob!". Am i missing something here? I've owned several fwd cars and none of them handle as well as my scoob does, definately none could have come out of a corner at such high speed under acceleration?
Why do people compare fwd/rwd to 4wd surely 4wd is better all round?
Why do people compare fwd/rwd to 4wd surely 4wd is better all round?
but for me, i love rwd , mkII escort
and the bmw's do take some beating, and can in the right hands push a scoob all the way, on the track it would probably be the bmw
from what i have seen, scoobys make a lot of poor drivers look good, were a bmw M3 would have had them in the scenery, nothing to do with the bmw's handling, but the rocket scientist behind the wheel,
24 April 2007, 08:20 PM
#56
...and on the rack track, the roads are smooth, you brake in a straight line, you go round corner, apply power smoothly, accelerate other side. RWD = GREAT!
In the real world, you bump, twist, go round one corner, Slam on anchors for Miss Daisy, overtake, slow down for horse, go round another corner, go to fast, panic, bit on the brakes, somehow make it round and continue on accelerating.
On these sort of b-roads and on small a-roads, the 4wd scoobies and evo's combination of grip, traction, idiot proof handling and mid range turbo torque punch equates to nothing being able to touch them, inc dare i say it M3's, Civic Type-R's, Seats Cupra's, Ferrari's (given we are all normal drivers in this world and that michael schumacher doesnt come up behing you in his ferrari panda arbarth). The only thing im concerned about is those 'serious' Porsches and little fly in oitment exige's and elises.
In the real world, you bump, twist, go round one corner, Slam on anchors for Miss Daisy, overtake, slow down for horse, go round another corner, go to fast, panic, bit on the brakes, somehow make it round and continue on accelerating.
On these sort of b-roads and on small a-roads, the 4wd scoobies and evo's combination of grip, traction, idiot proof handling and mid range turbo torque punch equates to nothing being able to touch them, inc dare i say it M3's, Civic Type-R's, Seats Cupra's, Ferrari's (given we are all normal drivers in this world and that michael schumacher doesnt come up behing you in his ferrari panda arbarth). The only thing im concerned about is those 'serious' Porsches and little fly in oitment exige's and elises.
Totaly agree too
24 April 2007, 08:35 PM
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4wd will always be better on our poor roads and various weather conditions, and will ultimately handle more horse power,
but for me, i love rwd , mkII escort
and the bmw's do take some beating, and can in the right hands push a scoob all the way, on the track it would probably be the bmw
from what i have seen, scoobys make a lot of poor drivers look good, were a bmw M3 would have had them in the scenery, nothing to do with the bmw's handling, but the rocket scientist behind the wheel,
but for me, i love rwd , mkII escort
and the bmw's do take some beating, and can in the right hands push a scoob all the way, on the track it would probably be the bmw
from what i have seen, scoobys make a lot of poor drivers look good, were a bmw M3 would have had them in the scenery, nothing to do with the bmw's handling, but the rocket scientist behind the wheel,
24 April 2007, 08:49 PM
#58
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i would have an othe cav gis 2morrow
funny you say that ive alway got an eye open for a cav gsi/turbo but with 500(turbos) left on the DVLA reg the chance off finding a mint 1 is slim to none and the gsi is going the same way
soft spon for the c20xe'd vauxhalls
old cav
[img=http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/23/pict0003kg8.th.jpg]
[img=http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7212/pict0004bi5.th.jpg]
[img=http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7342/pict0019fk3.th.jpg]
funny you say that ive alway got an eye open for a cav gsi/turbo but with 500(turbos) left on the DVLA reg the chance off finding a mint 1 is slim to none and the gsi is going the same way
soft spon for the c20xe'd vauxhallsold cav
[img=http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/23/pict0003kg8.th.jpg]
[img=http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7212/pict0004bi5.th.jpg]
[img=http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/7342/pict0019fk3.th.jpg]
heres mine a sad state, the people who done the arches did a **** job, the arches sat proud so i had them refund me and got it done properly somewhere else in the end.
24 April 2007, 08:53 PM
#59
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An old Porsche apprantly does not handle that great with the heavy engine angin over the back, BUT being able to drive one fast requires a lot of skill and learning.
If you consider driving a 230 bhp 1988 911 (1200kg) and a similar power Impreza on track, which do you think will be more fun to drive? Which one will have you exit the car with the biggest grin?
Even if a car has more grip or better handling, it doesn't mean it's better.
If you consider driving a 230 bhp 1988 911 (1200kg) and a similar power Impreza on track, which do you think will be more fun to drive? Which one will have you exit the car with the biggest grin?
Even if a car has more grip or better handling, it doesn't mean it's better.
24 April 2007, 09:05 PM
#60
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Remember the comments from all the top press, including EVO... and Top Fifth Gear..???
Mitsubishi Evo...fastest car in the world...point to point....
...before the Evo, there was similar comments about Integrales
I know we have moved on and Subarus are now on a par.... but we had Chavaliers/Ferraris/Porsches/Cossies/Westfields/Caterhams/M3's etc etc etc when these comments were made....
Discuss!!
Mitsubishi Evo...fastest car in the world...point to point....
...before the Evo, there was similar comments about Integrales
I know we have moved on and Subarus are now on a par.... but we had Chavaliers/Ferraris/Porsches/Cossies/Westfields/Caterhams/M3's etc etc etc when these comments were made....
Discuss!!