bob r

iTrader: (46)

Oh yeh!

jeremy

Iian,

"To me a good handling car is something that an change direction quickly and smoothly as well as giving back a lot of info about what is going on with both the front and the rear of the car."

Totally agree!!

"Generally lots of the fast Audis weren't seen as being good handling due to the engine being slung way out the front which tended to mean that they could plough on a bit (understeer)."

Used to own a UrQuattro- indeed engine was slung way out in front- however strange as it turns out-- it still is considered (just go over to other marques and ask those who currently own both) one of the best handling *road* cars of all time. Mine was simply ballistic on wet roads! Refer to the old Performance Car article where the evo boys threw around the UrQ, Impreza classic, Integrale, Skyline and Cosworth RS, as hard as they dare in wet wales-- Though Audi did not "win" the test it kept up in all situations and was deemed most reassuring-- ie safe.

So indeed the UrQ's could plow on a bit but for some very strange reason
maybe the way the Torsen diff worked you could always stop the understeer with a touch of throttle and a slight flick of the steering.

"In an ideal world a great handling car would generally never suffer from under or oversteer, and if it was going to suffer from one then oversteer is really what you want as it can be controlled a bit more by the throttle rather than maybe having to brake to cope with the understeer, which could cause more trouble than it saved"

I don't think an ideal world is possible. I think cars actually must slide, one side more than the other sometimes - if ever so slightly cause on/near the limit (at least at sane speeds-on wet/tight corners) if your not sliding a little bit through a corner then your really not in touch with what your cars got left, your not in touch with what it might do next.

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Agree with this - and I will argue the statement made earlier that FWD is forgiving. Like hell it is. You make a mistake in many a traditional hot hatch and you'll quickly find yourself making best friends with a hedge/ditch/tree boot first - forgiving it is most certainly not.

Both RWD and AWD provides considerably more room for correction than any FWD car I've ever owned anyhow - yes, it is easy to over-cook a RWD in the wet, and oversteer if your going too quick - but these are relatively easy to correct - lift off oversteer is considerably harder to correct as it happens so damn quickly.

That said - I am not saying that FWD is poorly handling. My Saxo was one of the best handling cars I've ever driven.

That all said - there are bad handling FWD/RWD/AWD cars - none are a magic cure for a bad chassis, and all have their positives and negatives.

jeremy

Automodel,

"Is there some course somewhere where 'we' can organise a little time trial? Not a race track, but a road with traditional road problems, invite the MLR, Saxo owners, GTROC and others?"

Absa-fr*&kin true! Wish I lived over by you guys in the UK.

BTW This is what our friendly auto journalists used to do, but
now almost never do.
Trully its the only way to tell how a given road car *actually*
handles and to tell actually how it it can be driven.

Martin2005

Permission to disagree

LG John

granted

martyrobertsdj

iTrader: (1)

As an aside:

When I've been out on my motorbike, I have encountered various cars that have wanted to have a bit of a play.
I think the one that made me work the hardest was a Civic Type R...........it did seem to handle very, very well indeed.

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

.....if your not sliding a little bit through a corner then your really not in touch with what your cars got left, your not in touch with what it might do next.

Exactly Jeremy. This is the crux of the whole thing.

Great ROAD cars are cars that do this progressively and give you plenty of feed back. A properly set up classic scoob is one of them.

///\oo/\\\

Didn't say it was ****e, just taking issue with the fact that its the "best handling car ever"

For the record, I am well aware of the difference between handling and grip. Most 4wd cars handle well, but not that great. They do have fantastic traction on the road.

The Classic Impreza, for example, had great grip, but poor over the limit handling in that it exhibited both power on understeer and excessive lift off oversteer.

I have to say though that if Richard Burns thought that a 106 Gti was the "best handling car ever" he has clearly never driven, for example, a DC2 Integra, or was simply just wrong. In which case I would argue that on this occasion he did not know far better than me.

I doubt he actually said that, and suspect he (quite rightly) just sung its praises.

There will be any number of "caterfields" which offer tremendous feedback, adjustability and control up to and over the limits of adhesion which are well in excess of what is offered by any fwd hatch with a compromised suspension set up.

I stand by the fact that whilst very good (although I preferred the 205 Gti in wider rear track 1.9 guise as it was more throttle adjustable) the 106 is not, bu any means, the "best handling car ever"

///\oo/\\\

ps - I would say that my spax damped yokohama 10 inch tyred original Mini was probably the best handling car I've ever driven, in that it was 100% controllable way beyond the limits of adhesion and neither understeered nor oversteered to excess, but simply 4 wheel drifted with stunning neutrality at silly speeds.

martyrobertsdj

iTrader: (1)

I think a little of that would go down well on Scoobynet..........

Stunning Neutrality!!!

silent running

LOL quality. I have to agree with this. And if it's not lift off oversteer that you've planned on to try and get the car round, it's an unplanned spin which is no fun.

A standard Clio Williams is a masterclass in FWD handling, but FWD always is a compromise whatever anyone says. I've never driven a 106GTi but they are damn fast across country, because I've followed one. I've only ever owned one RWD car, a 200SX and it was great to drive even though it was also a ****ter. My WRX wagon is superbly capable at getting from A-to-B at incredible pace, whatever may be in between. Whether it handles or not is kind of irrelevant for most of the driving I do - it gets me from place to place faster than anything else could.