KiwiGTI

Well I certainly remember back when I was growing up it was the norm for kids to walk home from school alone from age 5. Nobody drove to school, in fact it was quite an odd thing to do. Of course I had to be home by a certain time otherwise questions were asked.

Also I remember the many days I spent playing with absolutely no adult supervision with friends.

Prince Popeye

R u sure?? I'm sure whilst i was out playing 'soldiers' or some other non PC game in the local playing field/woods that my dad had to take time off work to ensure adequate supervision was heeded. After all those cap firing guns were mighty dangerous. Plus we heard some of those poisonous Adders lurked in the woods so my mum made sure we all had antidote.

Leslie

Exactly the same for me. I was also allowed to go off fishing by myself or to go to the local wooded areas with the other children to play etc. We used to make our own go-carts with pram wheels and have races on the dirt paths. Always got home for tea or I would be "for it". We learned to take care of ourselves at an early age.

Les

Infractfree

Just to confirm there is no way whatsoever you can see the door of their apartment from the place they were eating and drinking. This isn't based on what I've read in the media but from an hour long conversation with my house keeper who lives on the street next to 'Baptista' supermarket (which is right next to the Mark Warner complex) and my own local knowledge.

They were definitely negligent but what a price to pay.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Whilst all this nostalgia is very touching and indeed reflects my own experience I am not quite sure how it relates to a three year old girl being left alone at night with to two year siblings in a foreign country.

Of course you may well have been independent at two, however I suspect not.

Prince Popeye

Throw the parents to the wolves i say. Its must be one of the worst crimes going leaving your kids to go to sleep whilst you have a meal at the local restaurant in the same block.

Leslie

Do you honestly think we were discussing the abilitiy of infants to look after themselves or to go fishing or play on go carts? The last sentence in my post might give you a clue however!

Les

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Except it wasn't the same block...

The Zohan

Lets not let the facts (such as they are) stand in the way of a good keybord warrior session shall we

geesta

Here Here

Prince Popeye

Like the thread on illegal immigrants where you clearly know how to express your views too. .

BAD parenting skills and illegal immigrants all must go to room 101

charlieboxer

parents should never have left her - no sane person would leave a 3 year old alone for any period of time - thats not being pc or overly wrapping them in cotton wool - its just common sense. You do not go on a family holiday to abandon your children when they could have been cared for by a qualified person. They were not lacking in money they chose the resort for its child friendly options. No one in there right mind leaves 3 babies for 10 minutes let alone 30...at least. Madalliene has paid a very big price for their selfishness.

r32

Never mind having a go at the Parents, looks very much like the child was identified earlier and targeted, they broke in through the blind and the window and took the child without alerting the other two children who were in the same room. If the parents had been in it is unlikely they would have heard anything and the child would still have gone. The apartment was well secured and they werent far away.
Its the Portugese Police that need a bomb under them, what a waste of time they are! They lost at least 12 hours before doing much at all. The initial time after the incident is the most important and they all went home to bed .............

Infractfree

I have to say that blaming the police is a bit rich. There are 2 sets of people to blame for this happening. First and foremost the person that took her and secondly her parents who thought they'd have a night off and didn't bother using the babysitting service that was available. Exactly why they did this only they know but the punishment for their idiocy far outweighs the crime.

TelBoy

Sad story.

I was wondering about the above point, because that's the difference in my mind between them doing what millions of parents before them have done and had a carefully considered meal near their sleeping child rather than being tied to the apartment for the entirety of the holiday, and gross negligence. Do we know for a fact that the above statement is true?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

The resort is widely reported to have babysitting and a babylistening service.

It has also been widely reported that the services were not used and this has not been denied by family and friends. Initial reporting indicated that The family was part of an extended group that had all left their kids when they went out too dinner.

+Doc+

Gobsmacked.

MattW

There has been lots of "banter" about what kids used to be left to do, I have to say walking home at the age of 5 wasn't one of them for me. I used to be collected from the school gates by my parents or another child's parent up until I went to secondary, however I accept that may not have been the case if i didn't have a younger sister in the same school.

Leaving my 5 and 2 year olds in a locked apartment whilst I had dinner in a complex restaurant is certainly not acceptable to me, we always go to a private villa, we dine out earlier and then can sit out on the pation while the kids are in bed.

Whether this would have been avoided even if the adults were close is a moot point, however if they had been watched I suspect the guilty party targeted them because the adults were n't close and wouldn't have risked it otherwise.

I would hope that anyone who thinks it acceptable is merely trolling.

Prince Popeye

No one is saying its acceptable you goon, but its understandable.

However wrapping kids in cotton wool till they've reached 15 as suggested by Scoobyless is laughable. I certainly for one dont want my kids playing warcraft alday or spouting PC nonsense like alot of you geeks. Reminds me of John Major's 'back to basics.' bet you all frothed at the mouth with glee when he came out with that corker

MattW

Can you tell me how insulting me adds to the discussion?

Why is it understandable? I can't comprehend their decision, however I agree with you that there is an upper age limit of acceptability which is not as high as 15. However in this case an older child would probably have been dining with their parents, which negates that argument.

Infractfree

When I was staying at my place in Burgau (very near Luz) some friends came along as well and as they know I'm not the most tolerant person when it comes to kids decided to spend a week there as well as a week at my place. They used the babysitting service when we decided to have a proper night out in Lagos.

Furthermore talking to friends and people who work for me there it seems the service was still available (and is now) when they decided they'd leave the kids alone.

So I'm as sure as I can be without actually having been working at the Mark Warner complex myself that they didn't use this service and that it was available.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

According the BBC website the group went out most evenings using the same routine - kids in bed, go to local tapas bar.

The indications are that the girl was taken deliberately (jemmied shutter, etc) and so someone watching would have been able to easily establish the routine and take advantage of it.

In this specific case the consequences far outweigh the negligence of the parents (not merely waking up from a nightmare or bumping a head falling out of bed), a risk that may have been reduced had they not left the apartment without supervision.

TelBoy

Matt, if you're a parent and you get through their first fifteen years or whatever without leaving them unattended for ANY length of time, even in circumstances you carefully consider to be safe, then you're (in my mind) making a rod for your own back. This *is* after all, a very isolated incident so heaven knows what the motives were. Without repeating myself, their non-use of the complimentary baby listening service is unforgivable, but the parents (who will now undoubtedly split) will have to live with this for the rest of their lives, whatever the outcome.

MattW

I agree with your statement Tel, however we are talking about this particular incident. I've left mine playing in the back garden, upstairs and so on. You can't watch them 24x7 but you decide on an acceptable amount of risk given the circumstances.

In hindsight they got their decision wrong, however I believe it was wrong from the outset no matter what the circumstances. I am basing my opinion on my own experiences of going on holiday and such, and I admit I've never been to this resort.

Janspeed

iTrader: (1)

We are not here to judge them, the Law will do that.

The fact is that this was planned and executed by someone who was familiar with their movements.

There are suspects and the authorities are not going to fall into the same trap as they did +15 years ago, unless the media manage to spoil it more than they have already. The problem with the media is this sick need to find information regardless of the consequences to the authorities or the parents.
Any information that they plant on the TV screen should be very censored until the guilty parties are found.

Another thing we are not here to do is judge the Authorities. Just because we do not have kids nabbed every week like it unfortunately happens in the UK, does not mean they do not know what they are doing. We have had some very high-profile cases over the last years, with nationals, and one way or another they get sorted.

Of course any help from foreign law enforcemente agencies would be good too, like it was done in the Euro 2004.

Hopefully things will get sorted, and the bad sick f***s nailed!

AudiLover

Most of us, me included used to run about in fields with friends aged 7 etc without supervision. However most of us here are all males. Did your sister have the same priviliges as you?

Janspeed

iTrader: (1)

Funny how times have changed, even though it is still safe nowadays, there is a bigger need for "safety" than before....

AudiLover

With all these dirty *******s about and sick pervert illegal immigrants who take advantage of our bull**** lax UK laws I would have to disagree. The country isnt safer now than back when I was young, infact I would say its more dangerous regardless of what any labour fixed statistics say.

Janspeed

iTrader: (1)

It is unsafer no doubt.

SirFozzalot

I'm not saying it is or isn't safer now than back then, my gut says it feels less safe now.

But, is this possibly because of the way things are reported now and the mass coverage we get from the media with 24hr news channels etc. reporting every event, where as 20 years ago we just didn't hear about it all as much and so appeared as though it was safer?

Just a thought.