Felix.

But crime figures are affected by all sorts of things other than just the presence of CCTV. And also, it’s very difficult to have figures on crimes which have been prevented. For our force area overall crime figures are going down.

Would you not agree by identifying suspects around the town by CCTV and responding by informing the local shops, patrols etc that this will prevent thefts? By prosecuting and jailing (courts willing) suspects using CCTV evidence will prevent crimes. By identifying flashpoints during night time incidents will prevent violent crimes? By videoing incidents as they happen will identify suspects and secure convictions? Domestic disputes in which sporadic acts would be one word against another?

Do you think that by getting rid of CCTV crime will decrease…?

PeteBrant

No, but the money spent on CCTV would be better spent on measures that actually reduce crime.

As it stands, crime is on the increase, and volent crime/Muggings are rising faster than anything else.


CCTV is not a detterent.

A rise in convictions is not an indication of a successful crinme prevention policy. It is an indication of increased detection.

Felix.

Such as.........


Crime figures are falling, and I would argue that the figures would be higher without CCTV

Diesel

Such truth in that and to be honest Felix I would wish to stay clear of playing statistics with the police as I would surely also lose as an individual v an army!. But remember increased conviction may also be a symptom of increased crime itself! In fact the whole Excel spreadsheet driven [and SAGE linked!] quantification of political and policing 'success' within society essentially falls short in real terms for many a citizen. Preventing a conviction [which is unrecordable ststistically] remains far better than securing a conviction for us 'old skool' bunch.

In fact I think the police would be better focussed on actually policing as they rarely win the PR war & spin onslaught - as North Wales Police increasingly find out to huge Public Relationship damage. How absurd and unique it is that there is even a pressure group up there 'People for Proper Policing'. May I suggest they would do better to open the ears and not the Excel docs & Powerpoint!!! [and that is not copyright a contrite G.Brown in his press conference yesterday - we've been saying it for years].

Sorry, I'm going on again!. Schtum!

D [& who will chase his tail no further]

Felix.

Like I say before, our crime figures are falling – and we are supposed to have the most CCTV cameras now per head of population. I also can’t see how it’s not preventing crime when it can be used to direct police/security to potential offences and criminals. Also more convictions will mean that there are more people off the streets and so less crime is committed.

What would you like to see instead of CCTV then…? And are you also including things such as air support in this which is effectively a big mobile CCTV camera.

Diesel

I really have answered that and have no issue with a reasonable amount of CCTV augmenting that. Often CCTV simply just displaces crime.

D

PeteBrant

Depends on what point of view you take.

For Domestic burgalry and theft from Vehicles, it's down. For violent crime, i.e. the sort of crime CCTV is specifically aimed at, it's going up.

The figures simply don't back up claims that CCTV makes a difference.

If the purpose of CCTV is to reduce crime - Then they aren't doing the job.

BBC News | At-a-glance | Crime figures 2006 | Crime overview

Felix.

CCTV isn’t just aimed at violent crime – it’s aimed at all sorts of incidents. More and more people are putting up their own CCTV in homes specifically for burglaries, thefts, domestic violence. It can also be used to reduce the amount of false reporting of crimes.

You can also argue that a lot of town centre violence would go un-noticed and not crimed if it wasn’t for CCTV. A lot of assaults and threats of assaults would not get reported to us by victims. If it’s captured on CCTV then we can intervene and make arrests if necessary. If this happens of course a crime is created. The classic is a fight between a group of people who will not talk to police to say what has happened. If it is on CCTV, then we can look at offences such as violent disorder, affray.

Cleveland has one of the highest proportions of CCTV cameras. If you look at their figures for last year you will see that all crime (including violence) is down.

CCTV is making a big difference in reducing crime and the fear of crime. A lot of people will only drink in certain places around town or park their cars in certain places because of the cameras. And all this in a society where crime should be spiraling out of control – more people becoming involved in drugs, these having more and more children, more benefits being paid and then these children finding their way into the drug culture and so on and so on.

Leslie

I can see how CCTV can be a big help in tracking or identifying criminals, but they should not be treated as a substitute for coppers in plain sight on the streets.

We need far more of those!

Les

Felix.

It’s a numbers thing though.

I would estimate that there are about 100 large retail outlets in Middlesbrough town centre – each having about 10+ cameras. They will be about 30 pub/night clubs with the same number. Plus the town centre cameras of about 40ish. About 1340 cameras in total in and around the town centre.

So that’s 1340 officers, per shift just to cover this area. Current response numbers are 20 per shift. Then you have to consider that these officers can’t be just walking around the streets all day. You have on-going investigations, missing from homes, sudden deaths, emergency calls etc etc.

If cameras were not such a great success, then retail outlets won’t invest so highly in them. You tend to find that in interviews, showing a shoplifter the CCTV footage so that they can see that the shop has it installed and the quality of it – tends to prevent them from going back there to steal again.

SJ_Skyline

Surely you mean all reported crime?

Felix.

Well obviously. We can’t report on crime that we don’t know about. Similarly, we can’t report on crime which has been prevented.

Diesel

How on earth did the police 'police' 15 years ago? I know society changes but you imply it was impossible to police effectively then? Many of us here are saying that you DID police more effectively then.

One of us may be wrong - just which one??? [and may I humbly suggest age and experience could be on my side]

D

Felix.

Like I said before, CCTV is a ‘help’ to us and not the be all and end all of our work.

As I recall – 15 years ago was about the time of the Toxteth Riots, Miners strike and the Yorkshire Ripper running his rampage – and who would have heard of ecstasy and methamphetamine…..?

You can’t say that these were peaceful times

Leslie

the more officers you can get on the streets, the less crime they would have to investigate-like it used to be in the past.

Les

Felix.

More officers would be better of course - but that can't be seen as a direct replacement to CCTV.

Society and crime and the way crime is dealt with changes over the years. Domestics are a classic example. Years ago they were more or less written off as not a police matter - now it is completely different. Most domestics we go to today will result in a crime being recorded.

Advances in technology must be used by the police, (CCTV, DNA, fingerprints, ANPR) we can’t continue to live in the past.

boomer

Felix,

you seem to have an obsession (or maybe it is just your job role) with "domestics" (see your many past posts) - but would any of these have been prevented or solved with CCTV???

mb

Felix.

Yes. Lots of cams are put in homes now of repeat domestic offences - usefull when it's one word against another, or can prevent the crime from happening in the first place.

No obsession, could have used missing from homes, burglaries etc etc

Not a job role thing either - part parcel of the varied calls

Steve Whitehorn

iTrader: (13)

Britain is a westernised society so it is a far better place to live than many places in the world - e.g. where people have to walk a few Ks just for water.

However for a westernised society it really is bottom of the heap.
Its all part of the typical b-ll**** of tackeling the symptoms not the causes!
More CCTV cameras - yes that will help! NOT

A limited use of CCTV obviously has a part to play.
I see many parts of Europe. They have their problems. But UK society is the pitts.

The Facts (Broad generalisations)

e.g. Southern Germany.
1.Very very little CCTV
2.Big police presence
3.Respect for the police and other members of society
4.Respect from young people
5.Stronger family unit
Very low crime

e.g England
1.Heap loads of CCTV
2.little police presence
3.No respect for the police and other members of society
4.No respect from young people
5.Weak or no family units
Many parts are crime ridden **** holes

The above is not an opinion it is fact. You can see it with your own eyes when you walk around these two locations.

It saddens me as it not the new Britain that people hoped and fought for after WW2. Hence the voting in of the Labour gov in 45 - The national health service etc etc. large areas of Britain were in poverty in the 30s and many of our relatives that went through the last war - hoped there would be a better Britain to follow. How they must be spinning in their graves!

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

I wonder if anyone could foresee what the welfare state would do to this country when it was set up back in 1945 . What it was set up to do and stop the poor from starving, and what it is used for now (keeping 3 million + layabouts in **** and bingo money) are 2 different things.

Felix.

Steve

I totally agree, especially with points 3,4,5. But this is society today and remember the youth of today are being brought up by the youth of yesterday – and so on and so forth.

The causes of crime are huge and not just down to police numbers and CCTV. I think a radical look at society is needed before it’s too late. I would like to see national service brought back, reduction in the amount of benefits being paid out, the ability for us to say that ‘we are willing to accept asylum seekers so long as you accept some of ours in return’

Diesel

Lots of common sense here:

BBC Media Selector

Felix.

........?

What's this link about. Doesn't seem to open for me

Jerome

Go to this page and click on the video and audio news link "A senior police officer raises his concerns".

Diesel

Thx.

Think you might have seen it as noticed it's also referred to in another thread.

D

Felix.

But it’s not the basis of policing – it’s just another tool which we use. Similar to DNA and fingerprints

Remember it was the local council which installs the CCTV and the vast majority of the public are in favour – so is it not the council doing what the public want…?

PeteBrant

What do you base that on? I have never been asked whether I want CCTV or not..

The Zohan

Quite, more Police or a better/higher presence might be a better solution tha just more cameras CCTV can and does move crime to areas without CCTV.

Felix.

See the other post – to have the same coverage you would need thousands of police

In my experience, the criminals tend to try other ways of getting their drug money. At the moment weighing in copper out of skips and demolition sites is more lucrative for them than shoplifting. It’s also better for the environment

Leslie

Hasn't it occurred to you Felix that the electorate no longer trusts the authorities with that much information about us! And can you blame us?

Les