More Police powers - for the war on terror
28 May 2007, 05:18 PM
#31
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One major problem at the moment is if we stop someone in the street (doing nothing wrong) they can refuse their details and we are powerless and have to let them go.
Now that person could be wanted on a warrant, could be Billy the Burglar, could have a curfew, could be a sex pest on bail conditions, ASBOS – you name it and we have to let them walk if they are not committing any offences at the time. Now the scum know this and they are getting away with murder. I can’t see anything wrong with giving your name and DOB when stopped – failing to do so would lead to an arrest until we can establish who they are. I don’t agree with necessarily fining people, but I believe we should be able to find out who they are.
Now that person could be wanted on a warrant, could be Billy the Burglar, could have a curfew, could be a sex pest on bail conditions, ASBOS – you name it and we have to let them walk if they are not committing any offences at the time. Now the scum know this and they are getting away with murder. I can’t see anything wrong with giving your name and DOB when stopped – failing to do so would lead to an arrest until we can establish who they are. I don’t agree with necessarily fining people, but I believe we should be able to find out who they are.
28 May 2007, 05:19 PM
#32
No – when they are initially spotted, no crime has occurred. And you can’t possibly know if they are breaching bail conditions, or anything else, unless you know who they are…..
28 May 2007, 05:40 PM
#33
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Genuinly curious because whenever ive been asked who i am/why i'm there ive been given that as a possible arrest reason if i dont comply(doesnt help that i do look like a dodgy crim mind-or having friends with nice cars and houses lol)
richie
28 May 2007, 05:51 PM
#34
Can be all sorts - descriptions, nick names, overheard names, persons running in a general direction from the scene, time of night etc etc
All of these have to be 'vetted, by the custody sergeant to establish if the grounds are reasonable for suspicion.
All of these have to be 'vetted, by the custody sergeant to establish if the grounds are reasonable for suspicion.
28 May 2007, 06:13 PM
#35
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Which brings us back to your point about having the power to question and ask the name of ANYBODY. A bit difficult to do that to a CCTV image, even if it is crystal clear, which they mostly are now. Get out onto the street and DETER crime! As the public, who you serve, want you to do.
Dave
28 May 2007, 06:31 PM
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richie
28 May 2007, 06:38 PM
#37
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This is the real problem 1 detected crime and one related arrest looks a lot better on figures than 500 prevented crimes that there is no way of measuring.
Police accountability yes good idea-police performance stats chuffing stupid
richie
Last edited by richieh; 28 May 2007 at 06:41 PM. Reason: added a bit
28 May 2007, 08:59 PM
#38
In that case if you, as a policeman, have seen these *suspicious sc&mbags* on an *executive* estate then you may have no reason to question/detain them BUT by making yourself visible to them then they'll not be getting up to no good will they??? The old deterant job that the police are supposed to do. Oh, but that would involve police on the streets wouldn't it?? I forgot, the police *service* these days isn't there to deter criminals, it's there to study CCTV after the event and see if they recognise anyone.
Which brings us back to your point about having the power to question and ask the name of ANYBODY. A bit difficult to do that to a CCTV image, even if it is crystal clear, which they mostly are now. Get out onto the street and DETER crime! As the public, who you serve, want you to do.
Dave
Which brings us back to your point about having the power to question and ask the name of ANYBODY. A bit difficult to do that to a CCTV image, even if it is crystal clear, which they mostly are now. Get out onto the street and DETER crime! As the public, who you serve, want you to do.
Dave
The whole point is that we deter crime by identifying who they are. We should be able to find out if its two known burglars walking the estate or just two students on their way home. If they are wanted – lock them up and get them off the streets.
And what has CCTV got to do with all this….?
28 May 2007, 09:07 PM
#39
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FFS..
The reason we have 6 terrorist suspects running around the country now is because hyper-paranoid "civil liberties" fcukwits think a criminals rights are more important than an innocent persons.
A Police Officer SHOULD be able to stop and talk to anyone - the detection and prevention of crime is part of their job after all - and thats pretty damn difficult if you can't stop and question anyone.
The only reason you have to be worried is if your gulity of something. If not, stop, give the police officer your name, appriciate that its to KEEP YOU SAFE, and don't be an arsehole about it.
The reason we have 6 terrorist suspects running around the country now is because hyper-paranoid "civil liberties" fcukwits think a criminals rights are more important than an innocent persons.
A Police Officer SHOULD be able to stop and talk to anyone - the detection and prevention of crime is part of their job after all - and thats pretty damn difficult if you can't stop and question anyone.
The only reason you have to be worried is if your gulity of something. If not, stop, give the police officer your name, appriciate that its to KEEP YOU SAFE, and don't be an arsehole about it.
Anyway i think this could be the start of the reveloution.
29 May 2007, 12:25 PM
#43
if you stop billy bell end and he's known to the police even with the right to ask him questions, why would he tell you the truth??Answer a.
Ah yes officer I'm wanted by the police for several things...
Answer b.
No my names Billy .... Jones and I've never been in trouble
29 May 2007, 12:28 PM
#44
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If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear. Right? Wrong.
Where do you draw the line and who ensures that the powers are not abused? Would you object to being stopped if you were out at a particular time or visiting a particular area? Should the police then be able to hold you without charge if you can't give a reasonable answer (whatever that may be)? Will you then be required to carry your ID card at all times? Will not having your ID card mean that you can be detained? We might as well go back to the Soviet era in Russia and Eastern Europe if you really believe the answer is yes.
Everything we see from the government at the moment is wrapped up in the terrorist arguement. Perhaps we should be asking ourselves how we got here in the first place?
Anyone can be suspected of anything. Suspicion does not equal evidence or proof.
Where do you draw the line and who ensures that the powers are not abused? Would you object to being stopped if you were out at a particular time or visiting a particular area? Should the police then be able to hold you without charge if you can't give a reasonable answer (whatever that may be)? Will you then be required to carry your ID card at all times? Will not having your ID card mean that you can be detained? We might as well go back to the Soviet era in Russia and Eastern Europe if you really believe the answer is yes.
Everything we see from the government at the moment is wrapped up in the terrorist arguement. Perhaps we should be asking ourselves how we got here in the first place?
Anyone can be suspected of anything. Suspicion does not equal evidence or proof.
There is something to be said for quite aggressive 'stop and question/search' policies in areas of high street crime.....whether that will translate to terrorism prevention, well, I'm less convinced!
If a policeman asks me where I'm going I will reply thus:
"I'm off to buy some pornography officer!"
29 May 2007, 12:30 PM
#45
29 May 2007, 12:53 PM
#46
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FFS..
The reason we have 6 terrorist suspects running around the country now is because hyper-paranoid "civil liberties" fcukwits think a criminals rights are more important than an innocent persons.
A Police Officer SHOULD be able to stop and talk to anyone - the detection and prevention of crime is part of their job after all - and thats pretty damn difficult if you can't stop and question anyone.
The only reason you have to be worried is if your gulity of something. If not, stop, give the police officer your name, appriciate that its to KEEP YOU SAFE, and don't be an arsehole about it.
The reason we have 6 terrorist suspects running around the country now is because hyper-paranoid "civil liberties" fcukwits think a criminals rights are more important than an innocent persons.
A Police Officer SHOULD be able to stop and talk to anyone - the detection and prevention of crime is part of their job after all - and thats pretty damn difficult if you can't stop and question anyone.
The only reason you have to be worried is if your gulity of something. If not, stop, give the police officer your name, appriciate that its to KEEP YOU SAFE, and don't be an arsehole about it.
In other words, they have done absolutely nothing wrong. They cannot be brough to trial because there is no evidence against them.
Secondly, the law is slowly shifting from presumed innocence to presumed guilt, thats the problem. Why should a police officer have the right stop me and demand to search me on a whim? At present a police officer can do this, if he suspects the person has commited a crime - why is this not enough?
29 May 2007, 01:00 PM
#47
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What do you want us to do – follow them around, just in case…? So Mrs Miggens and her broken car window, or little 5 year old Jesica who is missing will just have to wait until tomorrow.
The whole point is that we deter crime by identifying who they are. We should be able to find out if its two known burglars walking the estate or just two students on their way home. If they are wanted – lock them up and get them off the streets.
And what has CCTV got to do with all this….?
The whole point is that we deter crime by identifying who they are. We should be able to find out if its two known burglars walking the estate or just two students on their way home. If they are wanted – lock them up and get them off the streets.
And what has CCTV got to do with all this….?
What we are objecting to is you stopping us just because we happen to be there minding our own business and asking for identification such as the apparently imminent very expensive ID card, which will be forged within a week of it coming out anyway!
This smacks of repressive governmental control such as in Germany before and during the second WW or under communist control.
Pimmo is quite right of course, why should anyone who has something to hide tell you his correct identity anyway?
Yet another headline grabbing half baked but useless idea from a floundering government!
Les
29 May 2007, 01:54 PM
#48
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29 May 2007, 06:27 PM
#50
if you stop billy bell end and he's known to the police even with the right to ask him questions, why would he tell you the truth??Answer a.
Ah yes officer I'm wanted by the police for several things...
Answer b.
No my names Billy .... Jones and I've never been in trouble
At the end of the day – I’m trying to prevent crime here by either locking up potential burglars etc before they have a chance to burgle (if they are breaching bail etc). If you’re happy to let the burglars, sex pests and such roam the streets without us having any powers to find out who they are until a crime has occurred then fine.
I take it then you will be happy for known paedophiles to live in your area so long as someone doesn’t catch them up to their old tricks again.
29 May 2007, 06:36 PM
#51
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Alright Billy – where do you live (can check on PNC/Intel for that surname on that street). That’s a nice tattoo Billy (can check on PNC identities on PNC). Can also check descriptions on Intel etc etc. If this doesn’t tally up, then it would give you reasonable suspicion to detain him to establish their identities via fingerprint. If there is nothing out for him – let him go. Or the fingerprint establishes his correct name – which is a paedophile in breach of his conditions
At the end of the day – I’m trying to prevent crime here by either locking up potential burglars etc before they have a chance to burgle (if they are breaching bail etc). If you’re happy to let the burglars, sex pests and such roam the streets without us having any powers to find out who they are until a crime has occurred then fine.
I take it then you will be happy for known paedophiles to live in your area so long as someone doesn’t catch them up to their old tricks again.
At the end of the day – I’m trying to prevent crime here by either locking up potential burglars etc before they have a chance to burgle (if they are breaching bail etc). If you’re happy to let the burglars, sex pests and such roam the streets without us having any powers to find out who they are until a crime has occurred then fine.
I take it then you will be happy for known paedophiles to live in your area so long as someone doesn’t catch them up to their old tricks again.
Look Felix, its about giving power to a select group of idiots who would abuse it and become a feckin pain in the ****
....YOU LOT!Look you can do all the above with good old fashioned detective work and by putting lazy **** rozzers back on the street instead of have them sitting at their PC's all day spouting complete tripe
Now stop bitching and start solving a few crimes
29 May 2007, 06:39 PM
#52
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Alright Billy – where do you live (can check on PNC/Intel for that surname on that street). That’s a nice tattoo Billy (can check on PNC identities on PNC). Can also check descriptions on Intel etc etc. If this doesn’t tally up, then it would give you reasonable suspicion to detain him to establish their identities via fingerprint. If there is nothing out for him – let him go. Or the fingerprint establishes his correct name – which is a paedophile in breach of his conditions
At the end of the day – I’m trying to prevent crime here by either locking up potential burglars etc before they have a chance to burgle (if they are breaching bail etc). If you’re happy to let the burglars, sex pests and such roam the streets without us having any powers to find out who they are until a crime has occurred then fine.
I take it then you will be happy for known paedophiles to live in your area so long as someone doesn’t catch them up to their old tricks again.
At the end of the day – I’m trying to prevent crime here by either locking up potential burglars etc before they have a chance to burgle (if they are breaching bail etc). If you’re happy to let the burglars, sex pests and such roam the streets without us having any powers to find out who they are until a crime has occurred then fine.
I take it then you will be happy for known paedophiles to live in your area so long as someone doesn’t catch them up to their old tricks again.
29 May 2007, 07:25 PM
#54
Paedophile walks the streets looking for his next victim shortly after school kicking out time. Police stop him. Refuses detail. He walks away
Cheers DCI. I feel really safe now. Ever thought of going for PM....
29 May 2007, 07:42 PM
#55
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Dave
29 May 2007, 08:11 PM
#56
That’s the point…..only he knows. But a check of his details on PNC will reveal all.
He’s committed no offences at the time so at the moment he can refuses all his details and just wander off and select his next victim.
I think most public are in favour of this as I have only had about 2 people in 7 years service who have refused their details to me. And you will be surprised how many people we have got off the streets following simple stop checks. Most criminals are not bothered about conditions put on them by the courts and often forget they are in place. So they quite happily give their correct details and get a nice little surprise…….
He’s committed no offences at the time so at the moment he can refuses all his details and just wander off and select his next victim.
I think most public are in favour of this as I have only had about 2 people in 7 years service who have refused their details to me. And you will be surprised how many people we have got off the streets following simple stop checks. Most criminals are not bothered about conditions put on them by the courts and often forget they are in place. So they quite happily give their correct details and get a nice little surprise…….
29 May 2007, 08:13 PM
#57
That’s the point…..only he knows. But a check of his details on PNC will reveal all.
He’s committed no offences at the time so at the moment he can refuses all his details and just wander off and select his next victim.
I think most public are in favour of this as I have only had about 2 people in 7 years service who have refused their details to me. And you will be surprised how many people we have got off the streets following simple stop checks. Most criminals are not bothered about conditions put on them by the courts and often forget they are in place. So they quite happily give their correct details and get a nice little surprise…….
He’s committed no offences at the time so at the moment he can refuses all his details and just wander off and select his next victim.
I think most public are in favour of this as I have only had about 2 people in 7 years service who have refused their details to me. And you will be surprised how many people we have got off the streets following simple stop checks. Most criminals are not bothered about conditions put on them by the courts and often forget they are in place. So they quite happily give their correct details and get a nice little surprise…….
29 May 2007, 09:11 PM
#59
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How will the PNC reveal all? Ok my name is micky mouse.. I happen to live at Disneyland, yes I know my ears are big and I've got black hair, but that's not that uncommon really is it...
In reality my name is Mighty Mouse, I live somewhere completely different.. but I happen to know Micky lives at Disneyland, and he has a similar general appearance to me.. ie.e black hair and big ears! And after you've done harassing me and checking up on the PNC that I fit the bill I'm off round the corner to nick some car stereos.
Edit: TO add, what will be coming up next is portable DNA testers so they can screen your DNA and see if that comes up with a match and to ensure you are telling the truth. If you are one of the few lucky ones not to be currently on the DNA database, then guess what you soon will be. That is after you've been taken downtown for further corroboration of your identity!
In reality my name is Mighty Mouse, I live somewhere completely different.. but I happen to know Micky lives at Disneyland, and he has a similar general appearance to me.. ie.e black hair and big ears! And after you've done harassing me and checking up on the PNC that I fit the bill I'm off round the corner to nick some car stereos.
Edit: TO add, what will be coming up next is portable DNA testers so they can screen your DNA and see if that comes up with a match and to ensure you are telling the truth. If you are one of the few lucky ones not to be currently on the DNA database, then guess what you soon will be. That is after you've been taken downtown for further corroboration of your identity!
Last edited by swampster; 29 May 2007 at 09:14 PM.
29 May 2007, 10:53 PM
#60
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...of course in the good old days, your local copper, on his local beat would instantly recognise the local paedo and, should he be in the vicinity of a school - have a quiet word or two.
No need for PNCs or Intel, or draconian new laws - just common sense and local policing!!!
The problems arise when a central government try to run things
mb
No need for PNCs or Intel, or draconian new laws - just common sense and local policing!!!
The problems arise when a central government try to run things
mb