jonc

Had McCanns taken up the babysitting service and Madeleine had been snatched:

a) Would the babysitters be negligent?
b) Would you be sympathetic for the babysitters?
c) Would the public and media be screaming for blood of the babysitters?

My point is, you expect babysitters are there to ensure the safety and wellbeing of their charge, more so the parents also have this duty of care at all times. The parents are negligent, no doubt about it and under the eyes of the law they failed in their duty of care for Madeleine and should be prosecuted as would any other parent failing in their duty. There is only one real victim and she has paid the ultimate price for her parents failure.

Iwan

No it's unlikely they'll do it again, I assume they left their other children with adequate supervision while they went on their travels around europe blaming everyone else. They've demonstrated they're certainly worthy of a closer look by the authorities IMO, as they've already admitted they weren't supervising their kids and have changed their story several times over what the exact circumstances were on the night in question.

If someone gets behind the wheel of a car pi$$ed and causes an accident in which their child in the back seat gets killed, do we just let them off because of their tragic loss? I don't think so, if there's blame to be apportioned they go to court and face the beak.

No different in this case IMO.

You obviously feel different, and that's your prerogative.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

How much proof do you need?

They left three children alone and went out to dinner at a restaurant on the other side of the resort. The resulting action may be abnormal but it underlines a deeper concern.

The neglect was NOT in Maddie being abducted it was the leaving of their children to start with.


Edited to add from the Find Madeleine Website - The balance on 11/06/07, the fund account current stands at £721,748.84.

David Lock

OK - take this middle class UK scene.

Warm summer evening and the Smiths are holding b-b-q for several friends and neighbours in back garden. Mum baths the kids and puts them in their rooms and go and joins the party. Front doot is left ajar so guests can walk in and join party. Mum or dad go to check on kids intermittently.

Stranger walks straight into house and takes a kid. If he is seen by another party goer he would just say "Hi, looking for the loo".

10 million to 1 chance or less but are parents negligent? Recognise the analogy?

davegtt

Feasable story but saying that, I dont think many people would leave the front door open would they Id leave it unlocked but never open. Infact my house is unlocked all the time Im there, even through the night sometimes.

David Lock

I think it would depend where you were. Not in a rough city centre but I think you might in an out of town village where "everyone knows each other". Point being it is stranger territory immediately outside the front gate wherever you are.

Flatcapdriver

David, its a good example and I'd have to say the parents would have to accept some culpability but the parents would at least have the opportunity of hearing any commotion from their kids if they were messing around, which led to an accident.

They're not 100 metres away in a restaurant without direct line of site. Turn it on its head - if you were looking to ****** a child which would you prefer? A nice quiet room with a sleepy child or walking into a house with loads of people?

stilover

Or ................

Parents go on holiday with their 3 kids. They bath their kids and put them to bed. Their hungry and decide to go out to eat. They ask themselves whether or not to bother with the baby sitting service. They decide that although they are both Doctors and therefore get payed a packet thanks to the Government plowing Billions into the NHS (that should have gone on health care rather than everyone getting new contracts and better pay) that they don't want to pay it.
They then pi$$ off for a meal in a nearby restaurant while leaving their 3 kids alone. They return to check on them once an hour and realise one of their kids has been kidnapped.

They blame the Portuguese police and everyone else for their kids disappearance. They tell the press that they are going to stay over there until they are found. A website is setup in order for them to stay there, as well as flying around Europe on private jets blaming everyone else for their daughters disappearance. They call off their Europe wide search to get on a private jet in order to meat the pope for 30 seconds.

They then make money by telling the press that it's everyone Else's fault and smile for the camera's while adding to the fighting fund.

Sorry David, I don't see the comparison.

If the McCanns had been in there apartment when their daughter was snatched, I'd think differently. They could/might have heard the intruder, or heard their daughter scream and done something about it.

TelBoy

Can i have one single example to support this accusation please.

Flatcapdriver

I don't think that's fair. If they'd made use of the creche/baby alarm facilities and ensured the windows/patio doors were closed then I believe they'd have acted responsibly.

Their immediate reaction by blaming everyone else, I agree with.

TelBoy

Rannoch - WHAT proof?!!!! They made a tragic mistake. They made a parental misjudgment. For the love of God they are NOT going to be doing anything like it EVER again!!!! And neither will - hopefully - any other parents who had previously done exactly the same thing but got away with it!!!

TelBoy

Again, evidence please?

Flatcapdriver

Their immediate reaction was to accuse the Police of not taking the abduction seriously. A member of their family then stated that it took the Portuguese Police two hours to react. That member of family was in the UK, so where did she get that information from? The McCanns.

Portuguese Police attended within ten minutes apparently. It was only later that the McCanns recanted.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

David,

I think your analogy completely misses the point.

The negligence (in the eyes of the law regarding duty of care) is NOT abduction of the child.

Both circumstances are deeply unfortunate and in both cases more could have been done to protect against the tragedy.

However in the eyes of the law, children under a certain age should not be left unsupervised by their parents, i.e. left at home whilst their parents go out.

Leaving your front door open is not beyond reasonable care.

Leaving your kids in bed whilst going out to the local pub/club is!

davegtt

Bad news being reported on radio 1 atm. A letter has been sent saying her body is buried under some rocks on the algarve somewhere Police say the letter is very similar to one sent 2 years ago I think it was saying where the bodies of 2 belgium girls were and the bodies were recovered

Hope thats not true.

TelBoy

Ok, if you're including the events after she went missing, then technically you're correct. But they definitely aren't trying to find a scapegoat for the actual abduction of their daughter, unless i'm missing something.

davegtt

BBC NEWS | UK | Police probing Madeleine letter

Marky-San

Mate - you've just confirmed that you are a total ****!

Does it matter if its a woman or man at my child? Whats the difference? Id dont see how you can make that distinction without knowing them - please educate me?

'Physically attacking her?' - Get a ****ing life! I grabbed her by the scruff as I did my child - what was I supposed to do? Oh, thats right? Live in your 'PC goody-two-shoes' of just giving her a talking to? I didn't attack her FFS! Get that out of your thick head!

Big man threatening a woman? I'd threaten anyone if the situation warranted it - and this did. Doesnt mean to say I'm a woman beater or a BIG MAN.

So, you'd leaving a kid crying without checking out the situation and acting appropriately? I'd rather have my 'lights punched out' in an attempt to do the right thing than leave an innocent child clearly alone and distressed.

Its people like you who clearly are wrong with the UK nowadays.



You just don't get it do you?

CrisPDuk

I normally live in a pretty safe part of the country, but there's no way on earth I'd leave the front door of my house open if I was having a barby in my back garden, especially if there were small kids asleep in the house

Do houses not have back doors where you come from David

Marky-San

Apologies for my rant after your post - not for you.

I've just read the link and that makes me feel quite sick, especially given the validity of last years 2 little girls.

I hope it completely wrong.

Flatcapdriver

Tel, I can probably dig up some articles from a Google search if you really want but as I recall their first comment to their relatives was that the Police were slow to react taking two hours or more. This was later disproved by local Police.

They then stated that the door and windows had been forced open. The Mark Warner company later made a statement that there was no evidence of this. It was later found to be an open window looking out on to the street that had allowed entry. This was then backed up by the Police.

Their actions were simply dismissed as for 'whatever reasons they didn't use the creche facilities' by another relative. Initially, the stated that they checked every fifteen minutes, then it moved to half an hour eventually moving on to an hour. Now it appears their vigilance was limited to half an hour.

Even allowing for mis-reporting, they constantly seem to have tried to distance themselves from their lack of action or look for a scapegoat. Sure, they couldn't have foreseen the possibility of an abduction but their actions don't appear to be good parenting to me.

Sorry for the long winded reply.

TelBoy

All the points you've raised are factually correct to the best of my knowledge, but personally i think we have to be careful when translating them into "looking for a scapegoat". They made the initial error which they acknowledge. In fact i don't think their subsequent complaints are totally unjustified and like all these stories there are two sides to it - the Portuguese police will probably use answering the phone as proof of "reacting". At the end of the day it's all very unfortunate whatever the real story, that's something we'll never change.

David Lock

.

It's near enough. As near as dammit the couple in my analogy could have been as far away in their country garden as out of sight of the house as the Mcanns were in Portugal.

Don't get me wrong I am not saying they weren't at fault but some of the hang 'em comments on here are way OTT.

There is also a strong whiff of "The Mcanns are middle class rubbish who earn too much money and deserve their come uppance" coupled with a resentment that they have tried so hard to keep their daughter's name in the news which is rather unpleasant. Not aimed at you btw.

David Lock

At least it's not being handled by the Jamaican authorities.......


(woolmer)

Trout

iTrader: (1)

In terms of action and consequence you are right.

In terms of the law there is a clear difference. The underlying point is that they should not be above the law just because what has happened to them is particularly tragic.

Woolmer

Flatcapdriver

Tel. Not sure I used the scapegoat analogy first but if I did, then its not a good one I agree.

The Police turned up within ten minutes which seems pretty good to me - that was backed up by witnesses who were there. I suppose what I'm trying to explain is that if they'd simply admitted that they'd ballsed up big time, then I'd have a lot more sympathy but its this continual passing the buck that has annoyed me.

Taking my point into a wider context, people in the UK seem increasingly keen on distancing themselves from their own actions - a refusal to take responsibility.

Anyway, I have to say I'm not overly keen on kids particularly in restaurants but I tell you what, from now on I'd much rather see them there relatively supervised than being left at home.

Leslie

Your point about taking responsibility is quite right I think. I have noticed over time that people often tend to follow the examples set by their political leaders!

Les

Infractfree

Actually Tel, this is factually incorrect. The Mark Warner complex was at that time completely open and was quite often used as a shortcut by pedestrians. It was in practice 'just some rough Portuguese street'.

To all the people defending the two child abandoners: This case is one of the most high profile ever. Therefore it's important that they are prosecuted to the full extent of the law and an example made of them so that others can see that it isn't acceptable to just sod off for a meal and a few drinks leaving your children to fend for themselves.

Furthermore I'd also add that people who aren't happy that the Portuguese police don't measure up to 'UK standards' might be better off staying at home rather than going to all these strange foreign places where people do things differently.

DCI Gene Hunt

The care provided to your children should be proportionate to your surroundings.

If you are in the middle of Portugal, in an unfamiliar area, surrounded by unfamiliar people your level of care towards children should rise, simple as.

People applying the 'well I'd/they'd of done the same thing at home' are just being careless. The risk increases, and so should the precautions... easy as really!

DCI - there's only ONE victim in this.......

SiPie

Disagree

They have already been handed the ultimate punishment already

Agree

Although I'm sure the EU would ideally like to see equal standards of policing throughout