carl

So, by implication, Walter Rohrl would be faster round the 'ring in a '95 Scoob than a Cayman S?

T-gro

I think if the elise weighed 1.4 tonnes it would corner faster than an Impreza (in steady state cornering in the dry)

The fact that it doesn't means that of course it generates more grip. Perhaps you find it "unfair" that a lighter car should dare to corner faster than a heavier one, but weight is an essential component in determining grip.

Of course, if it had 1.4 tonnes it would have wider tyres too. The fact that the Elise can the Elise can generate more lateral grip on 175 section front road tyres than a Scoob or Evo on 225 section Trackday spec tyres should tell you what you need to know about grip. Perhaps, instead I should ask you how much grip a scoob would generate on 175 section tyres?

And, no, I'm not talking about handling, I'm talking about grip.

Incidentally, in Autocar's grip challenge, the Elise was only behind the noble in terms of generating grip (that's grip, not handling). It's no coincidence that two low, wide, mid engined, light cars generated more grip (that's grip, not handling) than other configurations.

I'm surprised that Ron Dennis and Frank Williams never cottoned on to the fact that low, wide, light, mid engined cars were not infact the optimum configuration for generating grip, and that they'd be better off building a box shaped saloon instead.

I'd better shoot Adrian Newey a mail, he may be missing a trick.

Infractfree

Of course he would, how could he be slower this is scoobynet.

Nothing is faster than an Impreza, certainly not something as girly as a Cayman. Except of course it is...................

Knighty99

iTrader: (1)

Oh dear what have i started?

I was only claiming that i had a short burst off a roundabout with a cayman and it couldn'y catch me thats all?

It wasn't a fully blown round town gumball style time attack sort of thing

Andy-pay

would like to add - had a Cayman S cut me up at an island a few months back; came up on inside (v. small island) and shot down the straight, almost taking my front wing off in the process! (I wasnt really bothered about him at first, as assumed he was going to the right, rather than trying to cut me up!).
so having cut me up, he blatted down the straight beyond - so I gave chase.

long single carriageway straight beyond - he overtakes lorry, so do I - as he pulls in, I think "hang on, ive got enough poke to get past him here!", so I go straight past him. now you cant say he wasnt trying!

next island' Im in left lane, him in right - guess what - he tries to cut me up again; this time im ready for him, so we blat off, I beat him to the exit (where theres an awkard neg camber exit), and I really do leave him for dead.

next island, I slow down to give him chance to try again - and now he pulls in behind!

I wave goodbye, adn tootle off (but he ignores me as if he wasnt bothered).

so they cant be that quick really..........except hang on, my Scooby is actually quick, despite all the posturing and tosh discussed above.

oh, and by the way, my mates Elise cannot live with my scoob anywhere!

T-gro

My Elise couldn't keep up with my Type-r either, or even my previous two UK turbos, but it has more grip, and better balance, and better handling.

Infractfree

I really love listening to your little pissant soldiers trying to talk tough. They make me laugh. If Matrix was here, he'd laugh too. ...

Martin2005

Have I upset you? Why such a prickly response?
I have no axe to grind, I know the elise can corner at very high speed, which is what I've said all along (so drop the attitude, I couldn't give a stuff btw whether an Elise can corner faster than a scooby)

One thing though you are totally, utterly and completely wrong about; there is no way on earth that a 1.4 tonne elise is going to corner faster than a Scooby/Evo.

The whole proposition of the Elise would be compromised if it was that heavy, it is what it is, a fabulous lightweight sports car. Unless it fitted with 4WD of course!

As I said it's all about weight!

Andy-pay

nothing to do with talking tough, just a statement of fact - believe it or not, Im not bothered, just wanted to add my own experiences to the discussion.

not trying to wind you or anyone else up, just adding to the debate.

Andy-pay

hmmm............but whats the point when the scoob is quicker?

the whole reason for having a scoob is to have a quick car, which it is, despite all the doubters on here!

T-gro

Because, despite owning both cars, AND providing supporting evidence, you completely disrespect my opinion.

To (hopefully) lay this to rest, an article from Road and Track, driving and opinions courtesy of Brian Herta:

Lotus Elise: Great Grip (Road and Track online)

Note this:

Once at speed, it can generate the most lateral grip. Around the hairpin, the Lotus's apex speed of 40.4 mph is much faster than the Ferrari's 34.1 mph.

See the other cars it is up against?

Thank you.

Martin2005

BECAUSE ITS SO LIGHT

Do you need it in a different language?

T-gro

The point is that the Scoob was so fast across ground that it became a little dull. Bikes, supercars, almost everything gets in your way at some time.

I was actually having twice the fun in my wife's MX5 in the end, so I got an Elise instead.

I loved the Type-r, and if I could have kept it as well, I would have done, but I couldn't, so I didn't.

T-gro

I want to know why being light means it is disqualified from having more grip? Is it somehow unfair

If you could explain that in English, I'd appreciate it.

Andy-pay

yes, even Cayman S's, which is what the thread was about!

I dont find my Scoob dull though - its still a challenge to pilot one of these over decent roads!

Martin2005

Because it's relative to weight obviously.

For a 1.4 tonnes car to corner anywhere near as quickly as a 1 tonne car it HAS to be generating more grip.

An example for you.

My son has a remote control car (it's capable of about 40mph and weighs about 4kg) it can corner like a fly, and no doubt its pulling big G's. Does it generate more grip than an Elise? No of course it doesn't.

To be clear I am (and have always been) talking about absolute grip

T-gro

The point is, the Scoob DOESN'T corner as quickly as an Elise.

Look at the link I posted, the Elise had an Apex speed 6 mph faster than a 360, and a slalom time 2mph faster than an Evo 7.

Doesn't sound a lot, but it is significant.

I wouldn't mind betting at least the Evo 7 was on A046's too.

Martin2005

So we agree then?

T-gro

I doubt it.

You seem to want to define grip in a way that allows a car to (apparently) corner at a lower g but be "awarded" more grip for some obscure reason.

What I would ideally prefer is for grip to be defined by how much a car grips.

Feel free to clarify if I misunderstand......

Martin2005

Oh god here we go again.

You are talking about relative grip, I'm talking about absolute grip.

It's simple physics really...honest

I think we really do agree though. Lets put it this way if both cars weighed the same amount and the Elise cornered more quickly, then it would certainly be generating more absolute grip. But they don't weigh the same, one is much heavier, therefore to corner (nearly as quickly as the lighter car) it has to be generating more grip (friction) in absolute terms.


Lets not fall out, because I think we do really agree; the Elise generates more grip RELATIVE to it weight, the Scooby generates more ABSOLUTE grip.

T-gro

Nobody's falling out

But we don't agree.

I think, infact I'm sure that a 1.4 tonne, low, wide, mid engined car will corner at a higher g than a 1.4, front engined saloon.

Take a F430, or a Gallardo, or even a Cayman s.

Of course, there are variables: tyres, geo, suspension, but all being equal, the purpose built for grip car will generate more grip.

Martin2005

I agree with all the above (Apart from we bit about us not agreeing)

If a car of equal weight corners faster (which I'm sure the cars above do) then yes they generate more absolute grip.

Which is what I've said all along isn't it?

T-gro

Apart from the bit where you actually said:

"The Subaru generates more grip"

I don't think it does.

Otherwise, yes.

T-gro

Infact, let me clarify, before we go around in circles again.

I understand what you're saying, perfectly, but I think the Elise generates significantly more grip. I don't think it is close enough for you to say:

"one is much heavier, therefore to corner (nearly as quickly as the lighter car) it has to be generating more grip (friction) in absolute terms."

I don't think the cornering speed is close enough for you to use that argument.

Of course, in everyday terms, they are close. A couple of mph through a corner is no big deal. In terms of describing grip, it IS a big deal. Big enough of a deal that I actually think, even in the terms you describe, the Elise generates more grip.

Martin2005

Which it does in ABSOLUTE terms

Anyway you aren't disagreeing with me, you're disagreeing with the laws of physics

Anyway it's a healthy debate for a Monday night (whilst I'm playing Poker)

I drove an Elise around Martin Palmers track and thought it was brilliant BTW

andythejock01wrx

cheers matie.

pimmo2000

iTrader: (6)

I dot understand the people that come on a Scooby forum and just make posts about how the Scooby isn't the fastest car any more ??

*******

The rookie

iTrader: (1)

What your all missing is that if you increase the weight, you increase the grip, the standard equation for 'movement' resistance is mu (coefficient of friction) times mass (weight times gravity) so a 1.4 tonne Elise would have near enough double the grip of a 0.7 tonne Elise, I say near enough as the tyre responce isn't all linear so mu will change slightly.

EVO magazine at Bedford Autodrome, Impreza STi 1:26.1, Porsche Gayman 1:26.85, Elise 111R 1:29.2 (track damp in places).

Simon

Infractfree

I love scoobynet road racing stories.

"I went down the inside, banged it in second........don't tell me he wasn't trying""



Who is Martin Palmer by the way?

Gutmann pug

She was no match for me and the 205

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