davedipster

What if a pro did the mapping?

Matt_taylor

would be like cut and paste wouldnt it i suppose?

Hol

iTrader: (1)

No offence mate, but mapping an NA Clio is a lot easier than mapping a Turbo Charged car.

You have fuel and ignition only to worry about (in simple terms).
Change Ignition and you have to increase./decrease injector flow.

Stick boost in on top and you have double the parameters to worry about througout the rev range.
Then you have to do it all again for a different boost pressure etc....

ONE 234

beleive it or not i agree with peter (lewis)
it is shrouded in mistery by "those who can"
i agree its definatly a good...no, the best mod you can do to and for your engine, but at what price (its like footballers wages)
also i had my bug eye mapped by a very well known mapper on here and 22b, and i had NO visual or engine checks...and at no time was the levels checked, by him or the opperater of the rolling road in surrey.
dont get me wrong, he did a fantastic job, and the car not only was faster/more powerfull, but it was done safly, and with no detonation, but i paid £650 for less than 80 minuites work,
but i had choices...and i paid it....simple.
would be good if it came down to a more "resonable level", the only people who would dissagree with this is the mappers themselves (obviously)
we would all like to pay less...............

pslewis

Thats what they want you to believe ----- that you have a customised map What Tosh!!

As always ... fools and their money

davedipster

An ecu database could be created. Free maps for download?

pslewis

Anyone ever asked themselves why Subaru do not produce the maps these people do??

[Davey]

Of course its custom, other wise it wouldn't work, everyone has different "modifications"... but what doesn't help is they are also don't at different ambient temperatures and humidity levels which is always the biggest flaw when it comes to r/r mapping IMHO..

davedipster

Because the std maps have been tested in all conditions that the car could possibly see. A remap is just for that day?

[Davey]

Subaru spend their time developing a fuel/ignition map that creates a driveable car on standard components thats stands up to any emissions/reliability tests that may be thrown at it.. It must also take into account of failed sensors etc. etc..

Come on PS, your an inteligent man.. sort it out..

I've played around with the KWP2000 protocol and re-flashing ECU's.. I've played around with fuel/boost/igntion maps in WinOLS and HexEditors and I can assure you its not "Bull****"... But I do how ever believe people charge too much albeit the hardware supplier or the tunner.

ONE 234

one glimmer of light is simon of jolly green monster fame, he is charging me £250 to fit (my own power fc) and map it in my type R.
I think thats very good value and im happy to pay that.

you pays your money....and all that.

TheJesus

bit of a sweeping statement really. I think it depends on the car and mods, but as most Subaru mappers have a base map with 90% of the work already done that in fairness is most likely the reason why they are only taking an hour or two tops. Throttle bodied Clio's aren't really the norm and need to be mapped on a wideband AFR and lambda, so mapping is done from the ground up. 6-8 hours isn't uncommon to get it "perfect", but either way, it was infinitely cheaper than prices quoted here for what boils down to tweaking a map you made earlier.

Level of difficulty must surely be time related, as yes, a normal Clio from what I gather is pretty easy as there's only so much you need to change and like you say, no boost paramaters, but one that requires mapping from the ground up is surely far more difficult to do? Either way, price should be related to time, ECU cost plus X amount for labour per hour

[Davey]

Didnt see that post by Hol.. but what a joke! Fitting a stand alone ECU and Mapping a N/A car to run on boddies is SO MUCH more complex than fannying around with the standard ECU to map for a new turbo/downpipe etc.

GazTheHat

Rather a fool whose money has been parted, than a fool who requires a bank-loan for a new engine.

pslewis

You wouldn't need a new Engine or a re-map if you left the damned thing alone!!

OR, go out and buy a car that does want you want it to do .... don't buy a car to change!!

Mocom Racing

iTrader: (2)

Like I said, I'll can spend nearly 2hrs on the car before the map even get's looked at

What risk do you have? If I map your car and the engine goes bang due to something I've done I'm looking at an expensive rebuild, I have insurance in place that covers my work and all those high value cars that are under my care.

2hours for a map If I could do that I'd have at least 4 maps booked in each day, why do you think I only book 1 or 2?

TheJesus

to be fair though you can get some quick cheap and easy gains out of the Impreza... so it would be rude not to

My pal's recently remapped classic STI thingy was fast before, but it made a noticable difference after a remap for the basic breathing mods he did. Well impressed me how much difference it can make... do that on a stock Clio for example and you'll be telling yourself it's quicker when the reality of it is that it's made next to no difference... placebo effect. If it can be done reliably on an Impreza and it seems it can then it's worth it imo... damn sight cheaper than buying the next model up! lol

ONE 234

[QUOTE=

2hours for a map If I could do that I'd have at least 4 maps booked in each day, why do you think I only book 1 or 2?[/QUOTE]


how come then that most other mappers do this in way under 2 hours?
and im talking about the well known mapppers.

are they ripping us off? and you must be doing it right?, i have no reason to beleive you are nothing other than honist and fair, its just that the vast majority take less time and charge more money.
whats the answer?
a tuners union

funkyspider

To be fair, a web developer supporting a large E-commerce site can loose a company thousands of pounds very easily - try taking amazon, play.com, ebay etc down for a day then look at the directors faces....

I write and support life critical software, a mistake in my applications could easily cost ppl their lifes.

Thats what risks some people in the software industry carry, just a teeny bit more than an engine rebuild.

Not taking anything away from you, I'm sure you charge a fair price for a good, honest service with happy customers - and thats all anyone can ask.

scoobystiv8

If everybody got into something like Enginuity - Open Source ECU Tuning, Reflashing and Logging | Enginuity / Enginuity opensource then things would be different. The opensource forum has base maps for similar specced cars and also a lot input from people. There are people mapping in the UK using software like or the same as opensource. Also alot of advise if you ask the questions about your map. If you store your base map then you can always reflash with your own map if you have problems with your modded map.

I think that 90% of mappers have already got a file similar to your car and just upload and tweak it abit which is why it doesnt take long, its not like starting from scratch.

IMHO

hux309

Most of you are right, mapping isn't that difficult once you have a helping to show you what goes where like the injector and fuel maps

Me and a friend with a lappy went out and road mapped my 220hp 309 and at first i was like woah too much info but i watched and saw how he tweaked the map, impressive but once you get a taste for it it's not all that scary

Actually the reputable mapper had a damn hard job to improve on the map that was done and all we had was a lappy, afr meter and a wideband lambda sensor

Slipped him £20 for his troubles and i was a very happy chappy

Ecutek prices i can fully understand but mapping itself is a bit of a joke for what work is actually involved

A friend did have all the superchips eeprom hex files for the older peugeots, imagine how much that lot is worth to some folks

Information on how to map is kept to a minimum for a very good reason, it'll hurt their pockets if everyone sussed how to manage it themselves

Mikkel

It's not like we don't want to pay or make mappers work for low wages... think the point is the prices should be a bit more sensible and reflect the effort and expertise required. I'm not interested in learning it myself and am all for paying a good reasonable hourly rate for the knowledge, but I think the prices today are hard to justify and will ultimately hurt the industry.

Reason I mentioned web development is our industry went through the same thing in the 90s. People were overcharging for the then black arts and it ended up going pear shaped for a while.

GazTheHat

Show me a 400bhp car that goes, stops & corners, with rally lOOks for £25k and i may be interested, until then...i'm merely improving on what is a good base.

There are always faults with a car, i've identified mine and improved on them. OK. I've treated myself (the car?) to a few other things that were not really necessary, but that is what a disposable income if for.

We all know your standard car is the best, most reliable, best MPG and fastest around, but others don't feel that way and want to personalise/improve on their cars.

Jay m A

iTrader: (2)

Because you're too expensive?

Only joking.

I have a Apexi PFC and the cost of a remap from going from a 2.0 to a 2.5 bottom end and a few different ancillaries was £120 from one of the best on here (who'd previously fitted and mapped the ECU), which I think is very fair, and looking at Zen's website its very similar to what Paul charges

Not every remap costs £600 and when it does a fair chunk of that goes to the licence, not into the mappers pockets!

But more to the point, when you're getting your car remapped the most important factor IMO is the quality of the mapper, not the price and its not as if you have remaps every week so the decision on who to use is usually made through reputation and reccommendation / experiences of others. At the time of buying my PFC there wasn't that many people around my way mapping them, but there was a group mapping session arranged over a weekend using Andy.F so I jumped at the chance. Now there are an abundace of reputable mappers covering a variety of ECU's - competition keeps prices in check

babber

It costs what it costs at the end of the day. A Prodrive performance ECU is more expensive I sold my WR ecu (as it was pants) for £500 and paid £600 for the remap.

I had my RB5 WR done five years ago when I first got it. I reckon I've made my money back now easily just by the savings I made on the fuel. 90 MPH on a run in the summer with air con on flat out, I managed 32.5 MPG

I'm happy paying for that and would do it again tomorrow

Cheers Phill

dunx

iTrader: (3)

A nameless local company said £6K for Ecutek license was TOO much....

60 club members * £100 = balanced budget,

Then add profit on FMIC, exhaust, induction kit and the rest of the shiny bits ??

Dunx

P.S. Richard Bulmer spent around six hours with the new plugs and service (!) and finally a proper re-map on the road.... Very happy, yes expensive.

Bug(-eyed) she's worth it !

I now get better cruising economy and a huge amount more power when needed.

Control is nothing without power....

Luminous

iTrader: (3)

I too think the prices are too high, which is why I have not paid for mine to be done. Its as simple as that.

I got my car 2 years ago, and will keep it for a little longer, so now even if the price is reduced they will have to wait for the chance on my next car.

More people should do this, and the issue will be sorted

L33_WRX

Group buy on Software Mapping Course anyone? I'm up for it

Prasius

iTrader: (1)

Almost every car I know has a similar cost for first time remaps - primarily because the first time you re-map your car you have to buy a piggy-back or (for those with REALLY deep pockets) a stand-alone ECU. Those of us with newage Imprezas should think ourselves lucky that our cars come with very capable OE ECU's that allow this kind of manipulation.

I do think the money Ecutek charges for license fees is a bit steep - but then the fees that Microsoft charges for Office are a little on the high side too! Difference is, my Engine going pop is going to cost far more than my PC dying will!

ONE 234

i have had various scoobies mapped by different people, and never had somebody spend any time under the bonnet to justify costs/work at all. after the inital licence fee (which i never saw? (has anybody?) i know its an electronic licence, but how do you know if your car/ecu has already had this paid?? i couldnt see this or was never told, just blindly paid (im talking about ecutek)
i have spent various ammounts ranging from £650 to £250.
to connect the pipes/det cans etc, takes about 30 seconds.
i only had about 3 runs at boost on the rolling roads, and about 30 mins of "lap top" time, then a 10 min run up the road, finnished.
also the mapper who "maps" your ecutek, stores this on HIS laptop (bare in mind you have paid for this) and if you go to a different mapper later on, he will NOT have your information or saved settings, and you have to start again from scratch. (erm?)
Pat H mapped one of my cars (very well i might add) and i later got Chriss Todd (power eng) to remap it after fitting other bits, ...he could not do this unless starting from scratch (which would be a lot more time consuming/expensive) fortunatly, chriss & pat are mates, and pat kindly sent chriss the "map" via email
nice chaps those 2, but it highlights a flaw, in the fact that you pay for a "map base" that the "mapper" keeps himself.
methinks a disc with the info on would be nice (like at boots photobooth )

what do you lot think?????

monopoly comes to mind.